Fredrik Lejonklous System?

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matthias
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Fredrik Lejonklous System?

Post by matthias »

Dear Fredrik,

we would appreciate very much to get some insights in your system.

We know there is LP12SE with Adikt and Slipsik, Kikkin? and ............?

Best regards

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Post by Charlie1 »

What a great question. I've wondered this a few times. What about some pictures too? Unless this is it? :wink:

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/images/lp12%203009.jpg
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Post by lejonklou »

Correct regarding the vinyl source and preamp, Matthias.

In addition I have a Unidisk 1.1 and playback is currently Akurate 4200 driving aktiv Katans. A DS is on my wishlist, but I can't afford the one I really want and besides I don't have time to install one right now (good excuse).

Often my system changes, as I need to try a prototype or a certain combination in 'everyday life'. Quite a few times I have found that a prototype, which sounded really nice in the first tests, becomes a bit disappointing when I hear it playing the kid's records in the background. Then I know something is not right and needs to be improved. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Sounds like a great system Fredrik and no doubt its set-up to perfection. Do you ever think of getting 109s? If so, what would you do to stay aktiv - trade in for a 6100 or add 2200?
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Post by matthias »

Fredrik, I like your concept of having a MM cartridge in a high quality arm and therefore having lower cost per hour of music played.

Looking at your great system the ideal supplement to your active Katans could be a Klimax 345 sub.......................?

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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks!

Yes, I have considered the 109's, but when I change from Katans I will most likely want a more full range speaker. It's been quite a few years since I had something that digs really deep in the bass at home. If I had 109's, I'd probably drive them with two 3200, because the complete separation of the left and right channels can bring improvements if the system is wired optimally (signal and mains wiring). Adding a 2200 would work too, but adds unnecessary ground loops.

I agree, matthias, that a 345 would fit nicely. I've installed several of them but never dared bringing one home. :wink: Once you get it completely right I think it's a very nice sub. Powerful, deep and tuneful. Haven't heard the new Klimax version, I expect it to be even better.

Regarding cartridges, I would like to mount an MC at the moment, to give another MC proto a try. But for musical satisfaction, I am very happy with the Adikt and have many times felt surprised when it sounds even better after the latest MM stage update.

Not only is the cost per hour low, it's also very convenient to quickly switch stylus just to confirm that the old one is still performing well. That's probably the greatest drawback of MC's - they should have a little indicator on them which said how much life there's left. Like that stripe on the Duracell batteries. :mrgreen:
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Post by Charlie1 »

Lejonklou wrote:If I had 109's, I'd probably drive them with two 3200, because the complete separation of the left and right channels can bring improvements if the system is wired optimally (signal and mains wiring). Adding a 2200 would work too, but adds unnecessary ground loops.
That answers something I've been wondering about a while. This point about whether its worth keeping them separate, like the common use of 2 x 5100s with 242s.
Lejonklou wrote:when I change from Katans I will most likely want a more full range speaker.
What would be the most likely candidate? 242s? If so, how would you likely power them? You wouldn't be able to separate the left/right channels if you wanted to drive them aktiv with x200s. Is it enough of a drawback to start thinking about passive solutions?
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2009-01-26 18:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rowlandhills »

Charlie1 wrote:What would be the most likely candidate? 242s? If so, how would you likely power them? You wouldn't be able to separate the left/right channels if you wanted to drive them aktiv with x200s. Is it enough of a drawback to start thinking about passive solutions?
Well, you could always run 242s with a 3200 and a 2200 for each side, giving separation in aktiv mode. Or of course with 5 chakra twins, as I see someone on the Linn forums is doing... :)
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Post by lejonklou »

Charlie, there's something wrong with your quote. I don't use Hutter stands and have no idea whether they are even handed or not. :wink:

Regarding speakers with a larger frequency spectrum, I must admit that I don't feel particularly interested in anything I've seen or heard that is reasonably priced on the market today. I quite like the new 242's, but for the asking price I want them to be even better, especially in the bass. Having recently installed Azazello's aktiv Briks tells me all is not right in the lowest frequency department in most of today's speakers. I'm not saying Briks are superior, but they do have some unique qualities that can't be found today unless you pay a fortune.

Much easier to find good performing stand mounts! They simply lack the lowest bass and 10 times out of 10 I will choose quality before quantity. Katans are fantastic value for money, 109 seem very promising from when I've heard them in shops and 212 are great. All of them need a high quality signal and careful installation to perform properly, of course.

As I've installed many subwoofers, I know that can work well for the lowest frequencies. But it's not the same as full range speakers - the mid bass doesn't excel with a small speaker+sub combination.

If anyone has recommendations, I'm listening. There's also the option of making my own; if you don't hear another word from me during 2009, you'll know what I'm up to. :lol:
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Post by Charlie1 »

Lejonklou wrote:Charlie, there's something wrong with your quote. I don't use Hutter stands and have no idea whether they are even handed or not. Wink
What a pickle! I've amended it to read what I meant to say, but you've answered the question anyway. A very interesting read - I like this thread!
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:Regarding speakers with a larger frequency spectrum, I must admit that I don't feel particularly interested in anything I've seen or heard that is reasonably priced on the market today.
Agree, strange that only Linns 30k + speakers can be called full range. And not even Klimax 350A is a bass monster :roll:
lejonklou wrote: I quite like the new 242's, but for the asking price I want them to be even better, especially in the bass.
They are better than the mkI but still rather thin sounding. The worst with speakers that can’t move plenty of air is the impression of limited dynamics.
lejonklou wrote: Having recently installed Azazello's aktiv Briks tells me all is not right in the lowest frequency department in most of today's speakers. I'm not saying Briks are superior, but they do have some unique qualities that can't be found today unless you pay a fortune.
I can see a playback upgrade coming :mrgreen:
Nice to read that you finally seem to appreciate what great bas doing for the listening pleasure :wink:

I heard that one of the reasons Linn stopped using isobarik speakers was the cabinet complexity. Pity as I also miss some qualities in Isobarik/Sara/Keltik.
But the best with Isobarik was the way they spread the music in the room/house. VERY life like and realistic!!!
I know the tweeter/mid on the top messed up the 3D perspective but what he hell...who care about that? Never ever spent a sec thinking about 3D during a live performance.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

Music Lover wrote:Nice to read that you finally seem to appreciate what great bas doing for the listening pleasure :wink:
Finally? I've always been a bass freak! :D The problem is that I simply can't stand sloppy, out-of-tune bass. I'd rather have less, but with high quality. Which is why I keep ending up with stand mounts...

Actually I think the new 242 is a great speaker and it goes quite deep too. But from the size of it, the cabinet finish etc... I can't help thinking it would be great value for about half of what it currently costs.

It's only when comparing it musically to other expensive speakers that I feel the hefty price tag can perhaps be motivated. The 242's are four times the Majik floorstanders in price and the 212's are almost five times the Majik 109's. Aren't those pretty large steps? I'd personally rather save up to a DS or invest in new oscilloscopes than spend that (242) kind of money on a pair of speakers.
I heard that one of the reasons Linn stopped using isobarik speakers was the cabinet complexity. Pity as I also miss some qualities in Isobarik/Sara/Keltik.
There is also the 5150/Melodik subwoofer, which is a band-pass isobarik speaker. But it has a slightly different character. Wonder how much of that is due to the band-pass design?

Another thing that I've always wondered about: What exactly in the wood working process makes all the new speakers look flat, glossy and cheap while the old speakers (for instance Isobarik, Kan, Sara) have a rich wooden surface that ages with quality? Is it due to the thickness of the veneer? Or is it just a fashion trend to make surfaces super flat with razor sharp corners that are easily dented?

If someone has any knowledge of this, I'd really appreciate some comments.
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Post by lejonklou »

Time to update this as I've converted my Katans (internally wired with K400, by the way) to passive. The reason I did this is that it's preferable with passive speakers to easily test power amp prototypes. And I really need to hear protos in the home system for a while to understand how they perform.

Another thought is that when parting with the 4200 + aktiv cards, I could get a Radikal. This is very tempting, but I haven't quite decided yet.

I've made several observations when going from aktiv Katans with 4200 to biwired passive Katans with my power amp proto. One is that the bass shelving done in Linn's aktiv filters (lowest bass is lifted so that the speakers go deeper) really makes them sound a lot bigger. In passive mode they get small and a bit shouty. The sounds come from two small boxes instead of the entire wall. Also the treble tends to distort a bit more in passive mode, such that all treble sounds are more alike.

Another is that in aktiv mode, the speakers sound great on many volume settings; both low and quite loud. In passive mode, I feel I need to turn the volume up a bit to hear what's going on. But when playing loud, the sound becomes a bit restricted. It's as if the passive filters have been tuned with the speakers playing at a certain level. And this level is where they perform best.

Yet another is that with the new setup, quality differences between sources has somehow been more obvious. The TV sounds quite bad, the 1.1 is ok but a bit flat and the LP12 sounds great. Somehow the previous aktiv setup made everything sweeter, more impressive and bearable, even when the quality of the material was low. I didn't expect this at all.

Musically, I feel that the essence and the emotions are still in there, but I have to focus more to access it. Before it came out and grabbed me. Now it takes a while before the music pulls me in.

My current thoughts is that I'll get used to passive Katans, but the power amp proto isn't good enough and needs improving. I'll keep you posted.
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Post by Charlie1 »

I would expect the pain in downgrading your amp to soon disappear from your memory banks once a Radikal were in place.
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Post by lejonklou »

Don't tempt me any more, Charlie! I've already gone through the economy twice. :)

I'm slowly starting to get used to the new sound of the system. I've just gone through all the electrical connections and intend to carefully re-tune the speaker positioning next week. It's quite an educational process to downgrade! I just felt today how much better the LP12 sounded after having been switched on for a few hours - somehow this difference is more obvious now than with the previous aktiv system.

Linn say that with the Radikal the LP12 sounds great from the very first minute, as opposed to this "heating up" with the Lingo (actually it's not just the Lingo that's responsible, as I've switched between 3 different Lingo's this weekend - it seems more important that the LP12 gets some running time before it sounds at it's best). I hope it's true.
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Post by lejonklou »

I wonder if you could help me with this:

If I want to try a pair of passive full range speakers, that can be driven with just one stereo power amplifier - what models from Linn would you say fit this description?

Right now, I can only think of three: 242''s, Espeks and Isobariks. And I'm not sure all of you will agree that these are 'full range'.
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Post by Music Lover »

passive fullrange...only Isobarik IF a good amp is used.

Not even active Espek/242 are true full range.
Ok they can play deep bass but not with same SPL as the other freq.

Good news is that Isobarik also is the lowest cost option!
But on the other hand, do you really need true full range to evaluate amps?
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Post by anthony »

new 242 grows on you.
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Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote:
Yet another is that with the new setup, quality differences between sources has somehow been more obvious. The TV sounds quite bad, the 1.1 is ok but a bit flat and the LP12 sounds great. Somehow the previous aktiv setup made everything sweeter, more impressive and bearable, even when the quality of the material was low. I didn't expect this at all.

Musically, I feel that the essence and the emotions are still in there, but I have to focus more to access it. Before it came out and grabbed me. Now it takes a while before the music pulls me in.
posted.
Interesting stuff Mr Lejonklou..maybe in Aktiv mode the speakers and amps are more of an item and no aggression from the amps are required to get the music thru so everythin is pleasant ..and in passive mode its just one big battle between amp and crossover;very messy if amp doesnt have good ammo(a quality source) to give the crossovers a good Kikkin.. :wink: so what you are hearing with the TV is the amp loosing the fight..
Did Naim not used to say Linn cant make good power amps so thats why they went down the active route
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Post by JW »

I'm very happy with my 242 (new model), driven with a Chakra Twin.

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Post by lejonklou »

Ok, so two votes for 242 and one for Isobarik. Thanks for your feedback!

The problem with Isobariks is that they're old. And when fiddling with power amps, there's always a risk of accidentally burning up drive units. On Isobariks, that would be a problem...

242's would probably be very revealing of any shortcomings of the signal going into them. That's could work from an electronics evaluation point of view, even if the system in total would be quite unbalanced. But I think the cost is a bit too high at the moment, need to spend a lot on R&D and just ordered a Radikal with the excuse that a good signal will speed up developments. Especially of the Slipsik 5, which is now in for a long series of listening comparisons - and whenever the differences are small or difficult, it can be quite time consuming to make certain the right choice is made.

Lego, you've got some interesting thoughts there. But I don't think passive crossovers need to be so problematic, provided they're done right. Unfortunately, making a really good passive crossover that can handle both tiny and large signals easily becomes expensive.
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Post by Lego »

Jings! Fredrik does that mean that if ones speakers have a really good state of the art passive crossover i.e speakers are going to cost you many thousands then this is the way to go if you want to use your telly as a source and get a reasonable sound ....circle in the round...so the translation of a 'very revealing speaker' is 'not such a great crossover(complicated)' eg Isobariks .Speakers are a nightmare isnt it ironic that they are probably the item in the chain that gets in the way of the music the most ..!?? If you know what I mean...
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Post by lejonklou »

Not sure what you mean now, Lego... Maybe a bit of that Scottish mischievousness that I can't translate? :D

I still believe that active filtering is the best option. But it's certainly more expensive if you have many drive units to take care of. Hey, even Naim make active filters and speakers (despite their lame comment about Linn not being able to make proper amps)!

When I make a speaker I will certainly have a go at a good passive filter, even if active filters are superior.
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Post by Broccoli »

lejonklou wrote: When I make a speaker I will certainly have a go at a good passive filter, even if active filters are superior.
When you make a speaker, don't forget to make it fullrange ;)
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:Ok, so two votes for 242 and one for Isobarik. Thanks for your feedback!
For the record, I also consider 242 better for development evaluation as that model is more detailed, but the extra cost is IMHO better spent on source/rack!!!
So when you have top source/4 tier Mimer - then invest in 242s. :D

I suggest a combination of isobarik and Komponent. (with Majik 109 as alternative)
Komponent/M109 are very revealing AND musical speakers.
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