I am New Here and need advice

[Starman]

Hi,
My system did comprise the following : LP 12 , Ittok with K9 MM , Lingo
I still have these.
Numerik, Karik / Kairn / LK280 / Kabers . These now given to my daughter.
I had the crazy idea to get a home theatre set up and link the LP12 through this.But have decided to have a stand alone system and might go down the classic movie route for the home theatre
I found this forum by accident when searching for a dedicated phono amp
So going to get the Kikkin and the Slipsik and I need a power amp to compliment what would you advise ,and also speakers.Might wish to go active
Will upgrade the cartridge and also on the look out for a s/h Ekos
Thanks
Peter
NW Lancs UK

[David Neel]

If you are going for a Slipsik, that means your catridge choice is MM only, which gives a clear recommendation of Adikt. I recently sought alternatives - see the Adikt replacement? thread under HIFI - but ended up replacing the stylus, and I'm now very happy. Do ensure the Adikt is correctly aligned. I'd endorse the Ekos, as I made the same upgrade. Do you have a good wall shelf or stand for the LP12? If not, it's worth getting one, and maybe the Trampolin2. The biggest change you could make is to add a keel. Allowing for a little discount in current conditions, you should find a dealer who could supply and fit this (new) an ekos (s/h) and an adikt (new) for a bit under £3k total.

If you do this, you may well have blown your budget for amp/speakers. If so, either postpone the keel, or settle for something like a s/h LK140 and Katans (£5-600??) as an interim solution. But, even LK140/Katans will let you hear the LP12 improvements - I've got LK140/Kans, and even if I had the money I'd not see them as the next upgrade.

I've not really answered your question, but hope this helps. Best advice might be to go listen at a couple of dealers. You are not far away from me - I could share my experience of dealers by PM if you're interested.

Good luck!

[Charlie1]

Hi,
My system did comprise the following : LP 12 , Ittok with K9 MM , Lingo
I still have these.
Numerik, Karik / Kairn / LK280 / Kabers . These now given to my daughter.
I had the crazy idea to get a home theatre set up and link the LP12 through this.But have decided to have a stand alone system and might go down the classic movie route for the home theatre
I found this forum by accident when searching for a dedicated phono amp
So going to get the Kikkin and the Slipsik and I need a power amp to compliment what would you advise ,and also speakers.Might wish to go active
Will upgrade the cartridge and also on the look out for a s/h Ekos
Thanks
Peter
NW Lancs UK

Hi Peter and welcome to the forum. I hope your daughter is pleased with her system :D I've read on this forum and elsewhere that Kabers are one of the hardest speakers to install properly to make them really sing, so its worth bearing that in mind. There are a few threads on speaker positioning on this forum, all using the Tune Method, if that interests you.

As for your upgrade, I think you'll need to supply some more information for members to advise you properly, but certainly you can't go wrong with the Lejonklou kit by all accounts, especially the Kikkin which is offering a performance level to match Linn's own Akurate Pre which is several times more expensive.

Firstly, what is your budget?

Secondly, are you looking for floor standing speakers again or stand mounts?

Lastly, what's the full spec of your LP12 - i.e. does it have the Cirkus upgrade, Trampolin etc.? I presume it's a Lingo 1 (narrow box) you have at the moment, not the Lingo 2 (same size box as your old LK280)? How old is it? What's the plinth? Service history - ever had a new motor fitted for example? Have you had the bearings checked in your Ittok, or had any service in recent years?

Cheers for now....

[Starman]

Hi,
Thanks for the information so far.I have about £5,500.00 budget
Having listened to an Active system way back in 1995 ,I have always wanted to go active.
So as I only have the LP 12 which has not been upgraded apart from the slim Lingo ,I thought about going this way :
Lejonklou kit >> volume control and Slipsik
Majik 109 speakers maybe go Activ so :
Majik 6100 amp
Upgrade MM cartridge
Perhaps at this stage the activ route is not viable

The LP 12 has been serviced a few years ago ,but has hardly been used
I have not had the bearings checked on the Ittok .
I thought about taking it into Chris Brooks in Warrington for a check up

Dave it would be good to talk ,so you are very welcome to PM

Thanks
Peter

[lejonklou]

The Majik 109 aktiv with 6100 will probably sound fantastic. I haven't yet heard them aktiv, so this is pure speculation on my part, but Linn's small stand mounts have never failed to impress, especially aktiv.

The bearings in Ittoks are very seldom damaged unless there's been severe physical abuse. The Ekos is a great step up, if you find one at the right price I'd choose this before the latest power amps and going aktiv.

Cirkus (unless you already have it) and Trampolin 2 are before everything else, really. As is a careful setup of the LP12!

Good luck with this, it sounds like a lot of fun!

[Charlie1]

That's a good size budget Peter. Personally, I'd get the Cirkus (approx £500) and Trampolin 2 (approx £170) as Fredrik suggests but also add the Keel, 2nd hand Ekos 2 and Adikt as David mentioned (approx £3k), plus maybe a new plinth too (approx £220) dependant upon the age of yours. That's £4k gone for starters. And as they both say, a service and install by a good dealer is vital. I know the Keel is very expensive, but its more important than a better arm, just as a the arm is more important than better cartridge.

I'd then follow David's advice again and pick up a 2nd hand LK140 and Ninka's or Katan's as there wouldn't be much budget left. Actually, both the Ninka and Katan are two-way speakers, so you could go activ with a second LK140+activ cards. If you want a better 2nd hand amp then I here the 2250 is excellent value, but I'm not familiar with it myself. Buying 2nd hand power amp/speakers now means you won't loose much on them if you decide to upgrade to 6100/Aktiv Cards/Majik 109s in the future.

Add all that to the Kikkin, Slipsik and some Linn speaker cable and I think it would be a very 'musically balanced system'

David makes a good point about the LP12 needing a suitable support, although the Trampolin 2 helps out here I think. Personally, I've been very happy with my Isoblue rack rather than wall shelf. There's a few UK Linn dealers that now sell the Isoblue if you're interested.

Having said all that, I'm not sure how committed you are to vinyl as you obviously have owned CDs too. What's the deal there? Any replacement for the Karik/Numerik?

[Starman]

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for the advice.Very constructive .

Having said all that, I'm not sure how committed you are to vinyl as you obviously have owned CDs too. What's the deal there? Any replacement for the Karik/Numerik?

I dont know about CD , maybe a s/h Karik 3 or a Sneaky DS at some time
I could get a Classic Movie and that would suffice .
Its really the LP 12 that I want to start using again.
When we compared the vinyl against the cd ,the vinyl won , it was so much better. But my main reason for the cd was because of the children,it was so much easier for them to use,but they have flown the nest now

Regards
Peter

[Charlie1]

I dont know about CD , maybe a s/h Karik 3 or a Sneaky DS at some time
I could get a Classic Movie and that would suffice .
Its really the LP 12 that I want to start using again.
When we compared the vinyl against the cd ,the vinyl won , it was so much better. But my main reason for the cd was because of the children,it was so much easier for them to use,but they have flown the nest now

Fair enough.

By the way, the system I'd get (as mentioned above) is majoring on the source and how 'musically' enjoyable it is to live with. Obviously, if you're looking to balance it more with better 'sound' as well then you'll need to spread your funds more thinly and invest more on the playback (power amp/speakers). I wouldn't skimp on the Cirkus though! What year is your LP12 - the cirkus was fitted as standard from around 1993 (I that right folks?) Also, I think you need the Cirkus in order to have a Keel anyway.

No doubt a 6100/Majik 109s sound great. I've heard great things about them and listened to them very briefly myself. I'd be a bit more wary of the 140s though.

[Azazello]

That's a good size budget Peter. Personally, I'd get the Cirkus (approx £500) and Trampolin 2 (approx £170) as Fredrik suggests but also add the Keel, 2nd hand Ekos 2 and Adikt as David mentioned (approx £3k), plus maybe a new plinth too (approx £220) dependant upon the age of yours. That's £4k gone for starters. And as they both say, a service and install by a good dealer is vital. I know the Keel is very expensive, but its more important than a better arm, just as a the arm is more important than better cartridge.

I'd then follow David's advice again and pick up a 2nd hand LK140 and Ninka's or Katan's as there wouldn't be much budget left. Actually, both the Ninka and Katan are two-way speakers, so you could go activ with a second LK140+activ cards. If you want a better 2nd hand amp then I here the 2250 is excellent value, but I'm not familiar with it myself. Buying 2nd hand power amp/speakers now means you won't loose much on them if you decide to upgrade to 6100/Aktiv Cards/Majik 109s in the future.

Add all that to the Kikkin, Slipsik and some Linn speaker cable and I think it would be a very 'musically balanced system'

Word! I logged in to write exactly this, except that I was going to suggest a 5125 for the active Ninka/Katan. 5125 is considerably better then - but similar in price to - two LK140.

If you want to cut cost; keep the Ittok for a while.

[Starman]

I can expand my budget a little.
Spoke with House of Linn today about setting up a demo when I get back from my trip. They asked me why I wanted to stay with MM .
Have listened to the constructive advice,this seems to be the way that I will go :
Cirkus , Trampoline 2 , Keel , Adikt ,Kikkin, Slipsi

Speakers ,will have to listen ,maybe the Majik 109's or as suggested the Ninka's or Katan's

Amp : struggling to find s/h 5125 /2250/LK140's

Arm : Ekos same again ,only seen them on complete LP12 system's
So perhaps this I will leave for the time being.
Thanks again for all the good advice

Regards
Peter

[Charlie1]

Spoke with House of Linn today about setting up a demo when I get back from my trip. They asked me why I wanted to stay with MM.

Bit surprised by that. Pretty sure I've read that someone tune dem'd an LP12/Keel/Akito2/Adikt against an LP12/Ekos2/Akiva and the Keel'd deck was top which shows you how important the Keel is compared to their best MM and much better arm. I own an Akiva and it is a fantastic cartridge, but even a Lingo1 to Lingo2 upgrade would take precedent I would have thought. I'd skip on the Klyde myself and save up for an Akiva instead if you ever become set on going MC. Also bare in mind that you'll need to spend a lot more on a phono stage to do it justice plus an Akiva will cost you £1200 every few years when its time for a replacement :shock:

Personally, I'd only be happy buying an Ekos2 from a dealer unless you really know what you're doing and how to check it thoroughly (I certainly don't). There must be about 80 dealers in the UK, so I'd expect a few Ekos 2s to be available. The Linn website lists all the dealer contact info.

I get the feeling you might really like the 6100/109 combo. If so then I would have throught that there must be a couple of ex-demo/2nd hand 6100s for sale with the dealers right now. It might take you two hours to email them all, but could be time well spent. Now is a great time to get a bargain as prices are low, but you're right in that there just isn't much on the 2nd hand market right now (i.e. eBay), which is why I think you might have more luck with the dealers.

Good luck and it would be good to know how you get on at House of Linn. Might be worth a visit to their Komri room if they still have it - not many places you can hear a £100,000s worth of Komri's fully aktiv with Klimax Solo's etc.

[Starman]

Hi Charlie,
In relation to the MC ,what phono amp are you using . I was in the Practical Hi Fi shop in Bolton .This was before I found this forum and I had a good chat with one of the sales people. He mentioned about the PS Audio GCPH phono amp. It gets a very good write up in hi>fi+ Issue63 it costs around £800

Peter

[Charlie1]

In relation to the MC ,what phono amp are you using . I was in the Practical Hi Fi shop in Bolton .This was before I found this forum and I had a good chat with one of the sales people. He mentioned about the PS Audio GCPH phono amp. It gets a very good write up in hi>fi+ Issue63 it costs around £800

I use the Linto which I'm very happy with.

There is not a single Hi-Fi magazine who's writers I would trust anymore. It's not that I think they are being bought off by the manufactures or anything, just that they seem obsessed with how everything sounds, paying little or no attention to what is happening musically. I'm not saying the PS Audio isn't any good because I haven't heard it. All I'm saying is that you need to listen yourself and be wary of being too impressed by specific aspects of the sound.

The better systems I've heard tend to be kind of unimpressive in strange way. They don't bombard you or strike you in any way really. Its like when you hear a piano in real life, you don't think how detailed it sounds or how fast the leading edge transients are (as per magazines), you just hear a piano and tend to notice the playing of the music instead. The best systems tend to do the same and draw your attention to the music rather than the sound. They do sound fantastic, but its just not so important anymore because enjoying great music is much more satisfying.

The best way to judge the musical capabilities of a system is to use the Tune Method as used by Lejonklou and Linn to develop their products. House of Linn can do this for you and I think it will really help you make decisions that you don't regret along the line. It's great to be stunned by a new system, but not so good when you slowly find yourself listening to less and less music.

I think early CD is an extreme example of this because in certain ways it sounded better than vinyl, but it just killed the music (IMHO). Didn't stop millions converting though and I bet most never enjoyed their music as much after that. Focusing on all the nice noises a product makes is not a good idea I think. Often, when an aspect of the sound is really nice and stands out, its actually a subtle coloration which the manufacturer has wanted to keep or even emphasis for the purpose of making sales.

And as Fredrik has mentioned a few times in developing the Lejonklou products - trust the Tune Method and the final product will not only be more musical, but sound better than you could have ever done by listening to just the sound alone. Fredrik's explanation of the Tune Method and how to judge a system is excellent and you might find it of interest: http://www.lejonklou.com/?page=37

[David Neel]

It sounds as if things are going in the right direction! Charlie1's advice seems spot on as usual, especially the bit about listening to the music not the sound.

One point to be aware of: unless your Ittok is one of the very last, the arm rest requires a hole in the armboard, but the Ekos does not. The Keel is designed around the Ekos and has no hole for an armrest.

Upgrading Ittok to Ekos, it doesn't cost much extra for a new wooden armboard, but a new keel is in a different price league! You could mutilate the keel, but the best answer is to do keel and ekos together.

[Starman]

The Ittok is not one of the last, when I bought the LP new from Doug Brady in Warrington ,the Ittok was s/h .I cant remember the date I got the LP12

On Ebay today I noticed a LP 12 for sale for around £3800,or best offer:
Linn Sondek LP12 in American Cherry with the Trampolin 2 Baseboard. Complete with Ekos Arm, Akiva Cartridge, Lingo Power Supply and Linto Phono Stage.

All components have late Serial numbers. The deck has just been rebuilt and serviced and is in superb condition.

Perhaps this would be a good purchase and then go for the keel upgrade
And sell my base model with lingo

[Moomintroll]

Good luck and it would be good to know how you get on at House of Linn. Might be worth a visit to their Komri room if they still have it - not many places you can hear a £100,000s worth of Komri's fully aktiv with Klimax Solo's etc.

Yes, they do and have remodelled it over the Christmas period, so they are now in a bigger room.

'troll

[David Neel]

Starman, if you can afford the £3800 ebay LP12 plus the £1900 keel, you should check the complete SE which house of linn are selling for £7000. It's been for sale for a while - you never know, you might get it for less, and it's newer with an Ekos SE.

[Starman]

Hi,
Okay , thanks for that