Upgrade Suggestions

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-09-13 14:47

Hi everyone! Been lurking this site for a while. This is my first post.

My system is LP12, AkurateDS, Karin (Brilliant), 4 Klouts, Keltics, K400 and Black interconnects all on a SolidSteel H5 Rack.

I'm not using the TT much since purchasing the ADS, so really not looking to upgrade the TT at this point.

I've not heard much of the newer gear. The dealerships in my area that I've visited since my previous one has closed have not had anything setup that even deserved more than a minutes listening.

I do have a 5105, that I got to replace a klout that is now utilized in my Keltic system, for my Kabers (not being used now) and find this to be a big step backwards.

FWIW my setup is the best sounding system I've listened to. I assume that the speaker setup is off on most other systems I've heard. I have not spent much time at the HiFi shops in the last 10 years.

What would you recommend and what could I expect from each?

Thank You. SaltyDog

PS This is the BEST forum as far as straight forward information I know of and really appreciate it. I do frequent the Linn forum regularly as well as others.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-09-14 08:56

Without a budget and what you like to enhance, it's more difficult - but replacing Kairn with the best pre you can afford is my suggestion.

Klout/Keltik is bloody GREAT so put your money on the source/pre, keep the playback components until source/pre are Klimax DS/Kontrol.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2008-09-14 09:50

A 2:nd hand Exotik would fit perfectly in your system. They are not that expensive either. Exotik comes without RIIA, so you'd need a phono-preamp for your LP12.

Thank you for your compliments, we have worked hard on keeping quality above quantity here, and for some reason, I always ends up as the bad guy :mrgreen:

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2008-09-14 09:58

Kairn-Klout-Keltik is IMHO sounding (and looking) so homogeneous and deeply satisfactory I would have scruple to replace them on a step-by-step base. If I personally would have this system, I would either leave it intact or replace it completely, e.g. by a Klimax Kontrol and aktive Klimax Loudspeakers.

So here comes my suggestion: By yourself a pair of Linn silvers and place them between Akurate DS and Kairn. If you can even afford more silvers, replace the ones between Kairn and Klouts, too.

Axel

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2008-09-14 10:21

Azazello wrote:for some reason, I always ends up as the bad guy

God guy, bad guy, it all depends on how you choose to see things. I think quality is always a good thing, quantity is not... It applies to forums, musical systems and work.

Back on topic, I would like to recommend a Majik Kontrol. It already has a really good RIAA for MM/MC. If you do my "mod" (described in another thread, done by Charlie1 on this forum and some others on the Swedish forum) it can get even better! If you get a good sample of a Majik Kontrol, it is as good as/better than an early Exotik on line inputs with the bonus of MM/MC. Or you could just buy mine, that check all the above boxes. :mrgreen: It's for sale for $2200. (Cheaper (and better) than the one on Audiogon: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl? ... rol-Preamp)

And as Alex said, silvers IC's are really nice. Leave Klout/Keltik alone, except for installing the new chakra monofilters and the Ninka treble units. Another thing I would like to recommend is a "professional" install of your system. It can do wonders!

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-09-14 14:46

Thanks to all of you for your responses.

Linnofil, Can you tell me more about the new chakra monofilters? I have zero knowledge of these so please don't assume I know anything. I forgot to mention the Crossovers are in an Active Crossover Box. The tweeters have been upgraded to the ones with three vertical bars covering the front. Are these what your speaking of or are the Ninkas different?

What are the opinions of this group on the Akurate Kontrol? Is this just a renamed earlier model? I have no plans to go beyond stereo so would be looking for best bang for the buck if I change pre.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-09-14 16:02

Hi SaltyDog and welcome!

If you are using the standalone Aktiv Keltik box, I think a change to the new (Chakra) mono filter cards could be quite a step up. These have recently been released and fit the latest range of power amplifiers. But when one orders them from Linn, there are 'mono adapters' available free of charge, that make them fit the Klouts and some other older amps.

Beware that the installation of these filters into the Klouts takes some skill and time. It's a bit crowded in there! But while you are in there, you can unplug and replug all connectors at the same time. Definitely worthwhile if it hasn't been done for years.

Tweeters: If the 3 bars are completely parallel to eachother, then you have the latest treble unit.

Akurate Kontrol = New Exotik = Exotik+DA = Analogue Exotik, upgraded with internal DA and phono board. Soundwise there are some differences between these models, but nothing major in my opinion. In general it seems the later, the better BUT as Linnofil has pointed out in his ad for the Majik Kontrol, different specimen do vary a bit in sound quality.

I agree with Axel that you should get at least one pair of Silver interconnects (preferably the original but older version with a different connector), but I think you should definitely try another preamp.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-09-14 16:42

Do the new filters go in the Standalone box or do they have to go in the klouts? Any idea of cost (USA)? Is this DIY, Dealer or return to service department? Also can the Standalone crossover box power supply be upgraded and would it be worthwhile?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-09-14 16:56

What is the exact name of your filter box?

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-09-14 17:11

The front panel says "Linn Active Crossover" it is LK design. When purchased it was referred to as Tunebox, but it doesn't have that on it.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-09-14 17:55

Then you have a Tunebox! That means all six old-style mono cards are fitted in there. These can be replaced by six new 'Chakra' mono cards AND mono adapters.

The Tunebox had a transformer based power supply, which was later upgraded with a Slimline Brilliant power supply. I am not sure if Linn still do that upgrade, but if they do it will likely be very expensive.

I think you should instead fit all the aktiv cards into your Klouts and remove the Tunebox from your system. When I (many years ago) compared having the cards fitted into a transformer-based Tunebox with having them fitted into the Klouts, the Klout installation was clearly better. But as mentioned, it is a bit of work involved in that.

Does anybody have any additional opinions regarding where the Aktiv cards sound best - in a Tunebox or in the power amps?

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2008-09-14 18:23

lejonklou wrote:When I (many years ago) compared having the cards fitted into a transformer-based Tunebox with having them fitted into the Klouts, the Klout installation was clearly better.

We (my dealer, a few people and me) did the same comparison (with Kairn, Klout and Keltik) and came to the same result. BUT: We did this comparison again a few years later, but this time the Tunebox had a Slimlime SPU instead of a transformer, and we used Linn silvers instead of Linn black interconnects, and this time we all agreed that the Tunebox installation was clearly better (in terms of tune-dem). In fact it was so much better we all upgraded to this setup.

Axel

Pediatrik · Post by **Pediatrik** » 2008-09-14 19:39

Hi SaltyDog!

I actually recently made an upgrade from LP12/Ikemi/Kairn/4xKlout (Internal Aktiv cards)/Keltik to LP12/Akurate DS/Exotik+DA/4xKlout/Keltik and I strongly recommend you to change the pre-amp! The Kairn is a wonderful pre-amp, especially the phono-card, BUT a lot has happened since 1991. After changing the pre-amp, it was immediately dead obvious that the Kairn was the weak linc in above set-up.

Next step, for me, will be Silver inteconnects and "professional" installation. Unfortunately I can't advice you on the Aktiv cards since I haven't compared internal ones with Tunebox, but I would be suprised if the new Chakra monofilters (Thank you LINN! Now I can keep my beloved Keltiks forever! :D ) didn't beat your Tunebox by large margin.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-09-14 20:32

sommerfee wrote:this time the Tunebox had a Slimlime SPU instead of a transformer, and we used Linn silvers instead of Linn black interconnects, and this time we all agreed that the Tunebox installation was clearly better

Thanks Alex. This should mean that the order of performance for the aktiv cards is the following, from best to worst:

1. Chakra cards (and mono adapters) in a Slimline Powersuppy Tunebox
2. Chakra cards (and mono adapters) inside the Klouts
3. Chakra cards (and mono adapters) in your current transformer Tunebox

My guess is that the old mono cards will perform worse than the new Chakra ones, regardless of where you put them. If so:

4. Old mono cards in a Slimline Powersupply Tunebox
5. Old mono cards inside the Klouts
6. Old mono cards in your current transformer Tunebox

Pick and choose! But if I were you I'd try a new preamp first (and get some Silvers when you find them at a good price).

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2008-09-14 21:23

Good to have you on board Saltydog I bet the Kairn sounds good with your DS.I just love that amp.
I'd like to ask how much do the chakra cards cost and does that include fitting by a dealer to my aktiv Klouts?

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-09-14 22:56

Thanks all for the kind words and advice.

I had a tunebox with the brilliant power supply. It was in for service at the Linn Store in Chicago. I still have the loaned Tunebox from then as mine was never returned and the store has long since closed. I know the upgrade was worthwhile between the two.

A question on power supplies - I have a blue round brilliant in a karin and a rectangular one in a karik that is acting up (the playback skips - original laser problem I think) and not used anymore. I think that power supply would still be good. What is the difference in power supplies? Are they or either of them the switch mode power supply? Would it be worth looking into having the rectangular one from the karik put into the tunebox? I have not looked inside the numerik to see what's in it.

The ADS is is stunning! Right there with my LP12 lingo, akitto II, cirkus, Tramploline, DV Karat 17D3 I think (come to think of it I haven't played the TT since I've had the DS).

Pediatrik - Do you have the old or new cards in your setup?

Is the Exotik available in black? What is the difference with +DA?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-09-15 20:46

SaltyDog wrote:I had a tunebox with the brilliant power supply. It was in for service...

So you had a better one and got an older&worse in exchange?

I have a blue round brilliant in a karin and a rectangular one in a karik that is acting up (the playback skips - original laser problem I think) and not used anymore.

Both of these are switch mode power supplies. The round one (know as the 'Brilliant') came first and as it runs quite hot can be prone to failure, especially since they are now getting rather old. The rectangular one (known as the 'Slimline Brilliant') is newer and better.

In theory it is possible to exchange the transformer in your Tunebox for the Slimline in your Karik, but you need to be aware that it's more than just a swap. You will need to check the voltages out from the Slimline, pick the right ones, exchange the output connector on the Slimline to a Molex that fits the Tunebox and make sure you include the voltage selector from the Slimline. In addition, you should remove and exchange some components on the main board of the Tunebox to make it perform optimally with the Slimline.

The ADS is is stunning!

I agree, it's great.

Is the Exotik available in black? What is the difference with +DA?

Yes it is. The original version (known as the 'Exotik') was multi-channel but with no digital inputs or phono inputs. The idea was to make it upgradeable. +DA was the digital input upgrade board.

The much more expensive 'Exotik+DA' (later known as 'New Exotik' and 'Akurate Kontrol', with minor changes) have digital inputs and phono board fitted as standard. The reason for this decision was most likely that Linn didn't want any other manufacturers (like me - I released the Hudik phono board for the Exotik half a year before Linn made their own phono board) to make competing phono and DA upgrade boards...

The Majik Kontrol uses the same main board as the Exotik, but with 2 channels only. It has the same phono board but no digital inputs. It uses a simplified version of the Slimline power supply used in the Exotik.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-09-15 20:49

Linnofil wrote: I think quality is always a good thing, quantity is not... It applies to forums, musical systems and work.

Hmmm, I can think on a few areas where I like quantity :mrgreen:

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2008-09-15 22:42

Music Lover wrote:Hmmm, I can think on a few areas where I like quantity :mrgreen:

I didn't say I didn't like quantity, I just said that is isn't always good. But I think I know what you mean! :mrgreen: (And we are not talking about women, are we?)

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-09-16 06:02

Linnofil wrote: I didn't say I didn't like quantity

No you didn't but there are a few areas in life you just can't get enough of :mrgreen:
Just to put things in perspective...

Linnofil wrote: But I think I know what you mean! :mrgreen: (And we are not talking about women, are we?)

For sure we don't talking about food

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-09-16 06:11

sommerfee wrote:Kairn-Klout-Keltik is IMHO sounding (and looking) so homogeneous and deeply satisfactory I would have scruple to replace them on a step-by-step base. If I personally would have this system, I would either leave it intact or replace it completely, e.g. by a Klimax Kontrol and aktive Klimax Loudspeakers.

Axel, I have to disagree on this one.
As a previous owner of that setup and upgrading the pre to Timpano --> Exotik --> Klimax Kontrol, and (after getting the KK) upgrading the amps/speakers (also in a few steps) - the conclusion is that kairn is THE weak link in that setup.

Pediatrik · Post by **Pediatrik** » 2008-09-16 10:57

Here, here ML!

SaltyDog, I have the old mono cards inside the Klouts. I haven't compared them with the new Chakra cards, but a friend of mine went from internal old to internal Chakra and thought they made a bigger improvement than he had hoped for!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-09-16 23:45

There is a lot of good advice here and I agree with what has been said about the Exotik, Majik Kontrol, Akurate Kontrol, etc.

I have to say that my recommendations for upgrade would be a Klimax Kontrol as the upgrade from the Kairn to the KK is one of the largest I've ever heard in my system. The Klimax Kontrol literally makes a Kairn sound faulty it is so superior. I know it is not a cheap upgrade but it is very worthwhile.

The other upgrade I would recommend is much less expensive: replace your Linn Black interconnects with Linn Silvers. Start at the source and work your way down from there as you can afford it. It definitely is a worthwhile improvement.

I do not have personal experience of the improvement in the new Aktiv crossover cards but I certainly expect they would be an improvement as well. Good luck.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-12-13 17:35

Update. I a have ordered a Klimax Kontrol, 1 pair silver interconnects, and skeets for speakers (3 each) and 6 for the rack.

This leaves me looking for phono-pre (MC).

Now to the questions, how would you implement these components into the system?

I'm thinking - switch pre with included silvers between ADS and KK - then Tun Dem. But I'll need to Tune Dem after each step - so is it worth experiencing each step? Add silvers between KK and Tune Box - Tune Dem. Add Skeets to rack - Tune Dem? Moving keltiks with skeets - is this possible?

Thanks and Seasons Greetings to all.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-12-14 00:07

SaltyDog wrote:Moving keltiks with skeets - is this possible?

Hope I'm understanding this question correctly? I put a strong piece of plastic under my Ninkas/Skeets when Tune Deming the position. I then dragged the speaker and skeets (as one) across the carpet when adjusting position each time. Without the plastic underneath, the Skeets jammed into the carpet as soon as I tried to move the speaker. It would have taken many more hours otherwise.

I was a bit confused by the other questions :? sorry