asking for upgrade advice

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Spannko
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by Spannko »

+4!

I wasn't suggesting that active systems sometimes struggle to work well just because of all the additional "aerials" plugged into the amps, I was wondering whether the cables might produce problems in addition to all the others mentioned!
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by Charlie1 »

I'd like to recognise Anthony as being several years ahead of the curve on this one. He was the first to consistently advocate Klimax passive amps (and later Tundra too), instead of aktiv Akurate. I recall this was based on his experiences with 242s and aktiv x200 amps at home, but also listening to his customer systems. He could never settle with the aktiv 242s and there was often a feeling that things had shifted and needed re-tweaking (sounds like Exakt :)

I agree with other comments that the shift to 3K arrays was probably the turning point. 4100/4200 + Katans/Ninkas made a nice system with a single K400 run, but 242s with three amps and multiple K400 runs was another kettle of fish.
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by ThomasOK »

+5
I forgot to mention that. But as the one who ordered the cables I should have brought up that variability as well. (Where's MY royalty check? Never mind, I was already paid.;-)

At this point, as much as I hate to admit it, I view active speaker operation as only sensible for those who can afford to own the most musical of everything upstream of the speakers and get all the parts: amps, crossover and cables properly matched. Not an inexpensive task or one to be taken lightly.
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by MikeF »

Dear all,

many thanks again to all of you for sharing your thoughts. The proof of the pudding is the eating, so I will try passive again one way or the other. Most likely the Boazu for a start as Fredrik offered to borrow me one for evaluation. I will contact him to clarify details.

And I will let you guys know how it turned out. Just to be fair, let me say that I am far from being so proffesional like other people here and I am not sure how "good" my ears are. True, I love the music and I spotted some (bigger) differences in the past, but I never tried/thought myself capable of listening things like cable directions or even the mains polarity (at least here there is a clear technical difference), which seems well established for experts but for outsiders are difficult to comprehend. But I guess many people have such doubts in the beginning ...
So do not laugh about me.....

But I prefer to see it the positive way. If reality lives up to expectations, I do have a couple of very pleasant experiences in front of me......
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by beck »

MikeF wrote:Dear all,

many thanks again to all of you for sharing your thoughts. The proof of the pudding is the eating, so I will try passive again one way or the other. Most likely the Boazu for a start as Fredrik offered to borrow me one for evaluation. I will contact him to clarify details.

And I will let you guys know how it turned out. Just to be fair, let me say that I am far from being so proffesional like other people here and I am not sure how "good" my ears are. True, I love the music and I spotted some (bigger) differences in the past, but I never tried/thought myself capable of listening things like cable directions or even the mains polarity (at least here there is a clear technical difference), which seems well established for experts but for outsiders are difficult to comprehend. But I guess many people have such doubts in the beginning ...
So do not laugh about me.....

But I prefer to see it the positive way. If reality lives up to expectations, I do have a couple of very pleasant experiences in front of me......
Nobody is laughing. It has taken me many years to get to where I am now just to realise I do not know much at all.
But what we can do is to listen,discribe, show and discuss our findings and thereby get the best out of the systems we use.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by matthias »

ThomasOK wrote:At this point, as much as I hate to admit it, I view active speaker operation as only sensible for those who can afford to own the most musical of everything upstream of the speakers and get all the parts: amps, crossover and cables properly matched. Not an inexpensive task or one to be taken lightly.
Yes,
I dare to say:
If you want to spend the same amount of money an optimised passive system will always outperform an optimised active one.

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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by tokenbrit »

MikeF wrote: .. let me say that I am far from being so proffesional like other people here and I am not sure how "good" my ears are. True, I love the music and I spotted some (bigger) differences in the past, but I never tried/thought myself capable of listening things like cable directions or even the mains polarity (at least here there is a clear technical difference), which seems well established for experts but for outsiders are difficult to comprehend.
Hi Mike,
The only comprehension to focus on is understanding the music. Your ears don't need to be 'good' as in hearing a particular sound feature, but open to the tune & the music. Try the options - aktiv & passive - but don't try to hear differences or to listen to the system itself; let yourself appreciate the music, and then ask yourself which system provides the most enjoyment & is emotionally engaging rather than which you think is sonically superior. It's not about whether you can hear a particular instrument or note - it's about whether it comes together & adds to your love of the music.
I'm not sure how good my ears are either but, for me, listening to music is about feeling, not hearing - whichever system puts me more in touch with the music is better to me. Just listen, and trust yourself (including your ears ;)
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by lejonklou »

Your posts really are spot on, tokenbrit!
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by beck »

lejonklou wrote:Your posts really are spot on, tokenbrit!
+2
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by ThomasOK »

beck wrote:
lejonklou wrote:Your posts really are spot on, tokenbrit!
+2
Yep!
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by tokenbrit »

OK, I have to ask: is that the shortest post ever, from Thomas? :)

I was worried about my last post being prescriptive... It's just that having tried bi-wiring, and bi-amping with Linn's multichannel amps, then listening to Tundra & single wiring, I wouldn't go back. I know that Exakt & aktiv (Exaktiv?) can sound impressive, as can bi-wired and bi-amped setups, at least initially. Ultimately though I realised that I found it impressive, but clinical rather than musical...
Everything you've posted Mike, leads me to think that you'll enjoy the Boazu as Fredrik's electronics get to the heart of the music. All that said, everyone's different - it really is whatever is right *for you*.
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:Nobody is laughing. It has taken me many years to get to where I am now just to realise I do not know much at all.
+1

I too like what tokenbrit says about how to make comparisons. I still don't always find it very easy though, compared to some folks, especially if the sound differs quite a lot. Easier for me when there are mostly musical differences like when trying to fine tune speaker position.
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote: I still don't always find it very easy though, compared to some folks, especially if the sound differs quite a lot.
I don't think I ever met a person that consider it easy all the time.
Surely I'm not sure sometimes.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote:
beck wrote:Nobody is laughing. It has taken me many years to get to where I am now just to realise I do not know much at all.
+1

I too like what tokenbrit says about how to make comparisons. I still don't always find it very easy though, compared to some folks, especially if the sound differs quite a lot. Easier for me when there are mostly musical differences like when trying to fine tune speaker position.
What I do know however is that I am at a very sweet spot with my system right now. Nothing is working against the enjoyment of the music and that is what I seek and what I think most people in here seek.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by MikeF »

many thanks again to all,

I appreciate and will keep in mind tokenbrit s advice on using enjoyment as criteria, because that is what I want to do every day (when possible) with my music.

Now I my son and wife are occupying the living room so I am out with the second system (collected quite a lot of second hand bargains in the past, Ayre QB9 - good old Cyrus 2/PSX - 90s Mission 782) listening Reggaeton (!) and Salsa on Youtube. And still it is quite fun and engaging, so all is well....
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by MikeF »

" all is well"

do not get me wrong I will keep on searching for improvements with the mentioned possibilties, just wanted to say, I am still having fun.....
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by MikeF »

Dear all,

just to give you a few news on my status. I have been contact with Fredrik with the result that since today I have a Boazu for testing at home. It came with some good tips and is now waiting for a test (when I find the time and the little boy is not asleep, have been singing to him CCR version of "cotton fields" quite a lot recently).

What should I say, first of all, many thanks to Fredrik for his kind offer and advice. To avoid everybody scrolling all the way, here a reminder of the planned comparison:

Linn C6100 (active, no Dynamik, plus Afekt subwoofer) on Linn Ninka against the Boazu (passive) both from the same, last generation Majik DS

Here come a short list of actions performed in the meantime to prepare (again do not laugh):
- tightened and relevelled speaker feet (Linn Ninka)
- thightenend drive units
- removed a pair of secondary speakers from the room (passive membranes),

not much time for testing but I think I noticed that last one

- connected a switch (GS 108) between NAS and Majik DS
- removed bad main block and put in two new ones coming with the Boazu, and checked phases

But I did not listen to that yet, as well as:

- got a second hand Kikkin to avoid using the DVC of the Majik into the C6100 (still need to disable that)
- polished and tuned the banana connectors with rubber pieces (Knekt on LK 400), and if you think the Kikkin is giving the C6100 and "unfair" advantage, I did that only on the pair that I will use for the Boazu, not on the other line of the LK 400 and not on the LK 20 for the treble in active. I also did not yet check/change any cable directions within the C6100 or the channels used (1 and 4 are treble as installed by the dealer which I read is not ideal)

So I was looking forward to tell you already some musical impressions, but I cannot yet, you have to wait. Also I plan to start with this somehow improved system with the C6100, before switching to Boazu.

But I can give a few first impressions. First, please nobody be offended by language, but this guy got some balls. He sends a slim tiny 24 Watt (ok, we know it is about being able to deliver current spikes, but still) integrated to compete with 6 Channel active amplification plus subwoofer. Respect!

Next the feet, small and they feel slightly wobbly, but ok I know some physics, so I assume they may be able to damp vibrations more effectively by actually dissipating energy better than harder ones.

Next the inputs, so I first look at the amp (and then at the manual, that being the difference to an engineer, I suppose he reads the manual first) and no labels. Weird? Then it says in the manual all inputs are always on (avoiding to switch them) and I think, ok that sounds clever, here somebody is not afraid to do things differently. And for me that is fine, although some people may find it impractical.....

So far that´s all folks, but more to come.....
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by MikeF »

update:
had a little time today, played the "new old system " with the improvements mentioned above, including the Kikkin. I cannot give an A-B comparison,I cannot talk about the effect of the single steps, but it was good, probably better than before. Looking at my wife (she did not know what was going on, but is highly suspcious of black boxes) moving with the music, seemed to confirm this.

Still not with the Boazu, but reading the dedicated thread, expectations are high. Also now started to wonder if the JBLs may fit somehow, but hey, that is far away still.

Regards to all
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by tokenbrit »

Thanks for the updates. Sounds like a thorough approach. Take your time, and don't forget to have fun, enjoying the music with each system. In my experience, watching the wife's reactions is usually a good guide as long as you don't solicit an opinion directly. My guess is your wife is going to like the Boazu :)
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by MikeF »

hi there,

same thing today, a little while with the old, but improved system. It is definitively lots of fun and involving. Almost crying when singing along to my 3 months son "every little things gonna be alright" (Bob Marley). Well, do not blame/praise anything, just me being an emotional guy and feeling overwhelmed by joy and a sudden feeling of responsibilty, not sure if I can hold that promise to him.......

Almost sure the tweaked system is quite more fun and involving than before, but hard to say as no A-B comparison, and no chance/time to know which modification did what.

But I noticed I got tired listening relatively fast, which is a very, very bad thing. I have the feeling it happens more since I swapped the Ninkas for the other pair. Well today, there are other possible reasons, like the child starting to cry at some point, household stresslevel increasing, and having been exposed to strongs wind on the bike to whole morning. Another thing to try would be turn down the treble on the active cards a bit, in the past I had been at -1dB treble and 0 bass which is not what the dealer recommended (0 bass and 0 or +1 treble). Now it is at 0/0.

I also saw there is a link in the Boazu thread to here so I promise next news from me will go there as well, i.e. I will actually report on listening to Boazu.
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update

Post by MikeF »

hi there,

in the meantime I have been wrting in the Boazu thread. Bottom line the Boazu is much more enjoyable than the C6100. Hard to accept if you were into active, but who cares to be right if you want to enjoy the music....

Finally today I also changed the DS to fixed volume (before was running in 80), it was much easier than expected. My first attempt via webbrowser had been disaapointing but using Konfig it was so easy....

I also found to my surprise that the balance had been left in -2 maybe by the installer. The old room had a wall with cupboards on the left side and was open to the right, but the new room is more symmetric and if at all, then opposite. So I set that to 0 and pulled the speaker out a bit into the room and boy, that made another improvement.

so having fun now...

the modern lovers rocking
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by tokenbrit »

Glad for you. That realisation, going from hi-fi (notes) to musical fidelity (tune) can be a bit confusing at first but it should be fun - it's about getting more in touch with the music as a whole. Congrats.
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by Charlie1 »

Really pleased for you Mike.

Glad all the effort has paid of for you.

Many happy hours listening.
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thank you

Post by MikeF »

guys,

probably it has been said before but in the end it seems simple: who do you prefer to listen to? a master musician on a bad instrument (bad sound but musical) or a lousy musician on a stradivari (great sound but not musical)? The answer is clear to everybody i guess.

It is just suprising that there exists an attribute like "musical" for technical equipment....
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Re: asking for upgrade advice

Post by MikeF »

happy after holiday greetings,

Now with some time, I thought I give some update on what happened in between. I do not change the thread title yet, as the journey continues.

I had swapped the active C6100 (and Afekt subwoofer) for a Boazu integrated in between my Majik DS and the Ninkas. The result was quite good to me already. Thanks again to Fredrik for his help to get there.

Then came in my wife and moved an old, beautiful but big furniture into the listening, eh living, room which forced me to put compact speakers on top of it, about 1,5 m high. I got a pair of used Dali Grand Coupes for a really good price, but the result was not convincing. I tried inclined downwards, updside down and with the Linn Kustone as intermediate layer, the last helped a bit but still.....Anyway it was summer and I had better things to do........

Finally one lucky day she decided to move the furniture into another room. Since the Dalis were still connected I tried them first, (this time on small upwards inclined stands, manual says you can do that), and right away it was MUCH better. The sound was pretty good to me, maybe a bit bass heavy with the reflex port firing into the wall/floor angle, but the music was, well, boring. Just waiting for the time to pass. Well Fredrik had warned me, he was not fan of Dali.

So back in with the Ninkas, and honestly, the sound is a bit less Hifi, a bit less impressive at first hand, but then with them the system was really again big fun to listen. Suprisingly even in very bad positions (one sofa is right between the speakers) or from another room, the music remains engaging.

Then motivated by the more recent positive experience with a subwoofer by Thomas and Fredrik, I brought back in the Afekt. Having no high power in, I have to run it through an extra Kikkin, being connected in parallel with the Boazu to the DS. This time it seems I got the settings right (better high frequency cut-off for Ninka passive seems to be one step higher (2) from active(1)), and it again improved, although it is a pain to sychronize the volume. Another stroke of luck, when a second Afekt turned up on ebay, something that I had always wanted to try, true Stereo, i.e. one Sub for left and one for right.

And that was a small and cheap but really extremely effective upgrade (300 Euros). It got all better, faster, more engaging and much better spatial (stereo) resolution. Forget that they tell you that the ear is not supposed to hear from where the deeper frequencies are coming. Having two subs in stereo configuration gave a BIG improvement for me, compared with a single one. The ease with which I could adjust now the correct phase (inverted, being after the Kikkin, placing the subs right in front of the speakers) was impressive.

So far so good, very happy :-) and she (who hates the black boxes, cables etc.....) is dancing more than ever.

But, now I want to make my life easier with the next upgrade and get rid of the double volume setting. So I am in process of picking up a pair used Monos 2.2, which is not only removing the volume issue, but also should be an upgrade. That is why I do not want to go for Stereo Tundra, because I know myself good enough by now, and each intermediate step is just more money. It seems the subwoofer was not so cheap afterall ;-)

Ok, it sounds I am building the system from the back, but this just for the moment. A proper preamp (now it would be the Kikkin) will follow at some, later, moment.

Also I have been waiting for the Lejonklou Streamer as a source, but here the project seems to be pretty delayed. So I am not sure now if I should get a KRDS in the meantime. Although I did not get if the Lejonklou Streamer will also reproduce direct from a Computer, as "sound card", because apart from the NAS I also would like to use it for that. Tendency is to go for the KRDS now.

Best regards and a happy new year to all of you

Michael
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