Thoughts about music and Hi-Fi....

[Charlie1]

I'm not sure this topic is entirely suitable for the forum or where it should fit in, but this seems the best place.

I love listening to music and as my system has improved I've found it easier to get into a new album or enjoy different forms of music other than those I grew up with. Some upgrades have led to a song which once irritated me becoming palatable or start to make sense for the first time.

This is great, but it frightens me sometimes when I think about how much money I have spent to reach this point. I'm certainly not a rich man. Then I think about a friend of mine who loves music as much as myself. He's still using his Technics system from the late 80s and is quite happy. He works from home and listens to music nearly all day. He never complains about anything Hi-Fi related and never says anything to suggest that he finds his system irritating or tiresome when listening all day long.

When I think about my friend and all the thousands of people content with their ipods etc, I wonder if I am particularly sensitive in some way? Have I developed my ear over the years so that I can only really enjoy high fidelity? - I don't think so.
If anything, my friend mentioned above is better able to get into new fashions in music and pick up on a new hit song. I often need more repeated listening for a song to grow on me. Perhaps this is the key and why I only find new music accessible through a very tuneful system?

My listening really only began as a teenager with a Walkman and I was totally happy with it. I was able to become as immersed in the music as I am now. Perhaps I should have stuck with the walkman and added another bedroom to the house instead!? But I know when the problems all began. It was my first CD player and a very long line of unhappy upgrades until I heard an LP12. By that point it was partly too late as I was already an audiophile reading Hi-Fi magazines in search of sonic perfection. I drew as much pleasure from the sounds a system could make as the actual music itself. Thankfully, I think that tendency has lessened, partly due to this forum and its emphasis on the Tune Method and partly thanks to some key upgrades. But it's taken a long time and an awful lot of money.

What do other members think? Has anyone had similar experiences? Do you wonder what this Hi-Fi lark is all about at times?

[lejonklou]

Interesting thoughts, Charlie. They certainly fit the description "Me and My system". :D

One of my reflections is that when I was out dancing last night, me and my friend went to 3 different places in search of good music - and in my case; bearable sound. The first played ok music, but the sound was so out of tune and unrhythmical that we both agreed it was impossible to dance. I mentioned it to some other people and while they hadn't noticed it before, they suddenly agreed with me. One woman said: "It's funny, I think you are right! In here I don't recognise even the most familiar songs until they reach the refrain"

Next stop had reasonable music and sound. Bearable, I thought. The third place had all the bass units playing out of synch. Once again, my friend agreed after I had pointed this out.

I know that I am very critical when it comes to reproduction of music, but I found it interesting that everyone I talked to agreed with me and seemed to hear what I heard - after I had pointed it out to them!

[sommerfee]

Good post, Charlie!

I share your experiences. In the past I had a Thorens TD320, a Denon PMA-707 amplifier and a pair of self-made loudspeakers, and I have listened to a lot of music with joy. What happened?

Well, first my system got better and better. Well, at least I thought this, in fact I listened to less music, until I ended up with a Sony CD player and an Accuphase E-305, and with this system I only could listen to English guitar noise or to "audiophile" stuff with joy. But even then I didn't realized what was going on until I met the local Linn dealer playing a lot of Jazz with Classik/Kan which was really fun. I bought an Ikemi there, but still it was more fun listing to Jazz at the dealers than at home. So I made a comparison Classik vs. Accuphase at the dealer and that was so fatal I could not speak for days :lol: (The Accuphase was ok, I checked this a few days later.)

My theories:

1. The better a system is in sound issues (more details etc.), it has to be better in terms of tune-dem, e.g. I can listen to music in the telly without problems, but not to most hifi at the (non-Linn) dealer. (BTW: Once I found a statement in a forum that listening to Minimal Music is much more joy with less-good audio systems. Seems that the author hasn't tried a Linn system. )

2. The more older I get, the more I'm not able to tolerate things. Going to the supermarket with the all the noise is stress for me now, but was not in the past. So I assume I need a better system regarding tune-dem now than in the past.

3. There is always a good explanation at hand. If I can't dance in the disco to the music, it's because I'm not in the mood to dance today. If a record sounds bad on my stereo, it's because of the record mix or the music or both. If I can't stand Jazz, it's because of the Jazz. If I can only listen to "audiophile" CDs on my stereo, it's because the stereo is so good, that it's revealing all other CDs are crap. If I don't listen to so much music, it's because I don't like to listen to music so much. And so on... (And I still step in that traps from time to time.)

But what interests me: Charly, can YOU listen to his Technics system? When I go to people with such system, I can listen to the music there quite good (but not for a whole day), but if someone owns an expensive "audiophile" system, I can't stand it a minute.

[Music Lover]

2. The more older I get, the more I'm not able to tolerate things. Going to the supermarket with the all the noise is stress for me now, but was not in the past. So I assume I need a better system regarding tune-dem now than in the past.

No, the reason is likely mp3-files played on a PC in the supermarket.

[ThomasOK]

Very interesting thread. I think sommerfee has a good point about age entering into the equation. Having reached the ripe old age of 55 just yesterday I have to say that your tolerance for a number of things seems to go down as your age goes up. When I had my first real Hi-Fi, in my late teens, I could jump off a two story building and come through just fine. Now just slipping down a couple of stairs is painful. When we are young we are more resilient in a number of ways although I think we learn emotional resiliency (hopefully) as we get older and presumably wiser.

But I think the music listening preferences have to do with something else - your personal level of expectation. Linn used to talk about comparing pieces of equipment until you found the piece(s) that met your level of expectation. I experienced this when I first started working here in 2001. At the time I didn't even own a CD player having always felt that vinyl was preferable. Coming back into the Hi-Fi industry after several years selling Macintosh computers I felt I needed to get an idea of how the different CD players we sold sounded. So one day I stacked up several players from NAD, Arcam, Rega and Linn going up to the Genki. I heard the improvements from one model to the next but didn't hear anything that really caught my attention other than that the Genki was a lot better than anything else. The next day I started with the Genki and compared it to a used Karik III, then the Karik/Numerik and finally the Ikemi (we didn't have a CD12 at the time). This is when something surprising happened: while the Genki sounded good and the Karik and Numerik sounded better, the Ikemi sounded like music! For the first time I found myself actually wanting to sit there and listen to the whole disc! This had never happened to me with a CD before, I had found my minimum level of expectation. I bought an Ikemi several months later and have owned one ever since. I haven't bothered to spend more because I still only listen to CDs when I can't buy the music on LP.

Another way this figures in is that I have noticed that most professional musicians could care less about good Hi-Fi. To them none of it sounds anywhere near live music so they don't listen to a music system, they listen through it picking out what is important to them. I have found that when put in front of a truly musical system (read: the type of stuff we talk about here :) ) they will generally appreciate it. But given how little really musical Hi-Fi is out there it is unsurprising they don't find most of it worth notice. (Unfortunately true of the public in general.) I think this is why you often find well known musicians representing brands who generally make dreck like Bose, Radio Shack, JVC and Klipsch.

Over time, as you are exposed to better equipment, I think your level of expectation rises. Five years ago I couldn't imagine the kind of musical enjoyment I get out of a LP12SE going through a Klimax Kontrol into active ATC 100s, now I think I'd have a hard time living without. On the other hand, there are things that can lower your level of expectation as well. When I started selling Hi-Fi back in the late 70s we wouldn't give a second look to your typical cheap, plastic Japanese turntable - they were just beneath our consideration. After having to do demos in the store all the time using various CD sources I am now surprised at how good one of those basic turntables can sound when set up properly with a basic Grado cartridge. And it always impresses me how good a sound we can make hooking up a Rega P2 or P3 through a Rega or NAD amp and into some inexpensive Paradigm or Rega speakers. But as enjoyable as it can be I don't think I could live happily with it at home :( so I guess I'm stuck with the pricey toys.

[lejonklou]

When I go to people with such system, I can listen to the music there quite good (but not for a whole day), but if someone owns an expensive "audiophile" system, I can't stand it a minute.

Yes, exactly :!:

I regard this as an important dividing line between the "audiophiles" and my (our) view of what good reproduction of music is all about. They listen to the surface - the sound - and therefore can't stand a cheap table radio. We listen to the musical message - and will often tolerate quite a limited presentation on the surface as long as the message is clearly understandable.

I recently found a very nice looking Tandberg receiver from the 70's - complete and fully functional with 2 separate speakers - that someone had simply thrown in the garbage. I took it to our croft in the countryside and it sounds surprisingly good on FM radio. Much more enjoyable than I find most high end systems...

[Charlie1]

Thanks for all the great posts guys!

But what interests me: Charly, can YOU listen to his Technics system?

To be honest, I've not really spent much time listening to it. It seems OK for what it is and certainly doesn't drive me up the wall after a couple of minutes, unlike some systems I've heard.

I can listen to music in the telly without problems, but not to most hifi at the (non-Linn) dealer.

This is the same with me and I had wondered about it before. Similarly, my bog-standard car stereo is also fine when listening to FM radio. It's actually quite engaging (unfortunately the CD player isn't quite so good and is often annoying after 20mins or so).

I recently found a very nice looking Tandberg receiver from the 70's - complete and fully functional with 2 separate speakers - that someone had simply thrown in the garbage. I took it to our croft in the countryside and it sounds surprisingly good on FM radio. Much more enjoyable than I find most high end systems

I think until recently I've been a bit of a Hi-Fi snob, thinking that only 'proper' separates systems are worth listening to. I knew I should have kept that Walkman!

For the first time I found myself actually wanting to sit there and listen to the whole disc!

I think this is a really important point - can you sit there and happily enjoy an album's worth of music? Surely this is a minimum requirement for anyone and I suppose this is where a patient dealer comes into play. But Unfortunately it's a milestone I never reached with CD despite several years (up to early 1990s) and wasting a lot of money trying. My own stupid fault really, but I did the best I could with the knowledge and experience I had at the time. If I'd been a little less distracted by all the Hi-Fi glitter (sound staging, detail, bass tautness etc etc) then I'd have made better decisions. As I write this, I'm thoroughly enjoying 'Tumbleweed Connection' in the background and can take solace that I got there in the end!:) And most importantly, I know that once this album finishes, I'll be left feeling that something is missing and wanting to play another LP rather than feeling a sense of relief it's over and looking forward to some peace and quiet.

[lejonklou]

I have been thinking about that age factor. Sommerfee mentioned getting more disturbed by things like noisy environments etc - something I would regard as a negative factor: Less tolerance.

Thomas mentioned levels of expectation rising after being exposed to high quality. A positive factor: More experience. I recognise both of these in myself. Is it a combination of them that makes us willing to spend such vast amounts of money on quality reproduction of music?

Or is it also necessary to have a mind that is easily focused on a specific interest? You know; the kind of "tunnel vision" that I think a lot more men than women have in their relation to a hobby. Perhaps this is a factor you would rather pretend I never mentioned. :lol:

In general, I think you are right on the money when you (Thomas, Charlie, Axel) mention what you find yourself doing. Like if you ever listen to a complete album. I think most of us have a few ideas of how things are that don't really reflect the truth. Like my tiny system in the kitchen - I think it sounds ok. But what do I do when I come in and it's playing loud? I turn it down, every time. And after a while I usually turn it down a bit more. Conclusion: It does not sound ok!

[Charlie1]

Or is it also necessary to have a mind that is easily focused on a specific interest? You know; the kind of "tunnel vision" that I think a lot more men than women have in their relation to a hobby.

I am definitely a perfectionist and have a strong obsessive streak! My wife doesn't understand any of this Hi-Fi business and thinks I'm nuts. Whenever she sees me on this forum she remarks "are you talking to your weirdos again?" :) Please don't take offense as I am seen as No 1 weirdo in her eyes, but at least I can reverse park a motor car in one attempt, not 187!

[Charlie1]

This is an old topic, but a good enough place for some more thoughts along similar lines.

This could all sound a little naff, but here goes. How do you guys get on without music played on your home system? When you come back from holiday, is warming up the stereo one of the first things you do in anticipation of hearing some tuneful music again.

I've lost the use of my listening room the past couple of days and probably have more to go....Arrrr :( But it makes me realise just how much I enjoy listening to it. There is definitely something else I 'get' from it that is more than just listening to some good tunes. I only need to hear one LP side per day and I've got my 'fix'. I'm going to sound like I live in LA now, but I think the music brings me back down to earth at the end of each day - I do tend to live in my head a bit! And it's always been the LP12 that works for me. From the very first time I heard one, I new it had something I needed. That does sound 'naff' but I think it's correct. It's like a spiritual need - man :roll: Listening to music in the car or my wife's system is like having a half pint of lemonade shandy as against a double scotch or pint of Stella - it just doesn't hit the spot in the same way.

In my early twenties I went traveling for a couple of years and and when I reached Australia I dropped in on a Linn dealer in Sydney. I distinctly recall how good it was to hear music like that again! And its always the same when I get back from holiday's or long breaks - I get all excited about hearing some decent music again!!!!! :D

Anyway, there we go. Something different to think about.

[lejonklou]

Love your philosophical posts, Charlie.

I have a system that is often changing and when I get home from a vacation - or just a couple of days away - my reaction is a bit of a test: Was that last change for the better or for worse?

Coming back this summer I had to reinstall the entire system in an almost empty living room, since it had been redecorated. Once I had the speakers at the right position, the music was really communicating. The loud echoes between the naked walls didn't bother me, I just sat there and felt how my musical batteries slowly recharged.

[Lego]

In late summer its the Kremlin on every night during the proms and after and its sounds amazing even cds(weird).It was only tonight I wanted to play the LP12 because I wanted that emotional charge that only the lp12 can bring.It was good to have the break tho,there's nothing worse than getting used to your Linn source(tres expensive)

[Charlie1]

In late summer its the Kremlin on every night during the proms and after and its sounds amazing even cds(weird)

Have you noticed the quality of FM radio improve recently? I don't know if CD players have really come on this year, but its so much better than my in-car CD player now (I only listen to radio and CD in the car BTW.)

It was only tonight I wanted to play the LP12 because I wanted that emotional charge that only the lp12 can bring.It was good to have the break tho,there's nothing worse than getting used to your Linn source(tres expensive)

Personally, I don't think I could justify the expense of all my kit unless I listened to it every day or so. But I know what you mean - when I get back from holiday, its great to get an LP12 fix!

[Lego]

Because we dont have TV broadcast I just get home from work I get lazy and plonk myself in front of the Kremlin and watch my kids do their weird dance thing and tonight I did notice that it SOUNDED way better than usual when I was listening to this quartet playing live in the studio. signal is still at the normal 75 so I dont know whats going on .although I think a better signal would be more musically engaging.

[Charlie1]

Anyone else find it easier to enjoy music in the dark or is it just me being weird? Something I've been doing more of lately (listening in the dark, not being weird - well, no more than usual.)

I sit dead center between the speakers and with the lights on my eyes are often kept busy locating instruments and I tend to listen to particular bits rather than the whole performance. With the lights off I realise how distracting this has been and can better enjoy the music now.

[JW]

Anyone else find it easier to enjoy music in the dark or is it just me being weird?

Can't vouch for (or against) the weirdness, but I prefer listening in the dark as well :P

JW

[Charlie1]

Nice to know I'm not the only one!

On a related point, someone recently mentioned to me that there is evidence from a study that shows different people listen to music with different parts of their brain. Perhaps some are listening to the sounds whilst others are listening more to the music as a whole.

[SaltyDog]

Hi Charlie,

I find that just leaving the computer alone has the biggest affect on the perception of improved music. Lights out is probably the next biggest for me.

Using less brain power and less of our senses certainly will allow our hearing to take over. I really doubt it has anything to do with the sound improving. Listening is a learned skill.

And sometimes just a bit of whatever floats your boat to get your sense of feeling a little relaxed can add to the hearings use of our (possibly limited in my case at least) resources

[lejonklou]

On a related point, someone recently mentioned to me that there is evidence from a study that shows different people listen to music with different parts of their brain.

Perhaps that was me. Jan Fagius (Swedish neurologist, used to be my teacher in neurology) has written a book in Swedish that is called 'The Music of the Hemispheres'.

It's like a summary of what science know about how the brain handles music, some historic references and experiments. They used to think it was a specific part of the brain, but it's turned out to be many interacting parts. Listening to music is a bit different to making music yourself. And analysing the music is different than just letting the music affect your emotions. When I first read this, I instantly felt than performing the Tune Method is about doing both the analysing part and letting yourself be emotionally involved, at the same time. If you just analyse, you will miss the emotional nuances (HiFi nerd syndrome) and if you just feel, your ability to tell better from worse will not be very accurate.

Well worth reading!

Right now I'm reading a book called 'Our Senses don't Lie' by Pehr Sällström. He's an engineer who has many cultural interests and in his book he explains how the scientific world often tries to falsify what we perceive with our senses, as if they are easily fooled and preventing us from seeing the truth. He reverses the order by saying that the purpose of science is to serves our senses, without them it would be pointless.

Several good examples in that book.

[Charlie1]

You read some interesting books. The Jan Fagius one doesn't seem to be available in English. I do now recall you mentioning this Fredrik but it was someone I spoke to recently that also mentioned it, so perhaps it's a concept that's beginning to do the rounds. I like the idea as it also fits in with my experience although that doesn't necessarily make it the truth.