spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

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spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by spidagoat »

Hello,

I have been browsing the Lejonklou forum for a while now, soaking up a bit of your collective wisdom and have decided that it is high time I joined and introduced myself and my system. That and I want to pick your collective brains about preamps.

Up until a few weeks ago my system was:
[1] Apple Airport Express -> [2] Yamaha RX-V590RDS -> [3] Tannoy Mercury M3s

I have been inspired to set out on a journey of upgrades having had my mind completely and delightfully blown by two systems:
krds/0 -> kikkin -> tundra -> 109s
and:
mdsm/0 -> aktiv 4200 -> katans

The are of course a number of constraints, wife and small children included, so it is expected to be a long and incremental journey. I now work in IT, but as a teenager I spent quite a bit of time on amateur electronics including building a succession of 1W amps, so I am reasonably at home either side of the DAC so to speak, as well as much of the underlying theory, if rusty and dated! I grew up immersed in opera by my mother, tempered by many more contemporary influences from a childhood friend who still feeds me excellent recommendations (and ale) from time to time.

I have some grand(ish) plans and some possibly eccentric ideas. The former are along the lines of either driving the katans aktiv or with a tundra (or two!). The latter are around what can and can't be done on the digital side of the DAC - I think there needs to be a fundamentally different approach there to the analogue side, though tune is still the ultimate test.

The approach to my upgrades has been to target weakest links, starting with re-ripping my CD collection to FLAC and ALAC. Then I jumped to other end [3] and replaced the M3s with Katans. Wow. Huge step change in detail. The rationale was there seemed to be little point driving the M3s with a better amp and the Katans hit a clear sweet spot in terms of sound and cost.

In parallel I have been working on [1]. In any detail it is the topic for another post, but in a nutshell the work in progress looks something like:
- dlna/upnp server: minidlna (running on FreeNAS)
- dlna/upnp renderer: Volumio on Raspberry Pi
- bubbleupnp as an OpenHome Media proxy to Volumio
- Kazoo to control it all
Work still to do:
a) getting bubbleupnp to run on FreeNAS (it is currently on my laptop)
b) quality digital-out for the Raspberry Pi to input to the DAC. Ideally this will be TOSLINK for complete electrical isolation between DAC and the rest of the digital side. Likely candidate is one of these as the RPi USB bus is notoriously noisy: https://www.hifiberry.com/digiplus/. Other options include other platforms that run Volumio.
c) DAC. Overall I see this as the single most important component of the system. Interim solution may have to be a first-gen Sony Minidisc player I have in a cupboard. Technically the DAC in the airport express is very good, with a very low noise floor and nice high roll off so I may be better off streaming ALAC from iTunes and Tidal until I have a decent replacement. It will be interesting comparing the two options though. Whichever way much research to be done in to DACs before a decision.

So that leaves [2]. The Katans are shortly to be joined by an LK100 which should be a big improvement on the Yamaha and will tide me over until I have the above all up to scratch at which point I can start dreaming about Tundras, 4200s and beyond.

Which brings me to my question for today: which preamps should I look at?

For my needs I see source selection, remote control, phono stage, and display all as pretty much optional. Volume control and sounding amazing are the only hard requirements. Remote is a nice to have. I don't see a need for a display and expect that the complexity required by preventing it adding noise to the signal would make it an expensive luxury for my needs. There is a very long term aspiration to add phono and dust off my mothers collection of vinyl, but I see that as the project or two after this so no need for a second source at this stage.

Something I have stumbled across as an interesting option is the Tisbury Audio Mini Passive Preamplifier. Has anyone heard it in action? What else should I look at?
http://www.tisburyaudio.co.uk/mini-passive-preamplifier

I look forward to your thoughts. If you would like me to expand on any of the above please let me know.

James
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by donuk »

Hi James, and welcome to the forum......

And before anyone else jumps it, I should say that before parting with any money for a preamplifier you are duty bound to listen to a Lejonklou preamp or two. I had my first initiation to them a couple of weeks ago, and I am still boring friends with their magnificence.

Having said, Linn surprisingly recently said that they are not going to make any more analogue preamps. Which means that second hand Linn preamps will either be more expensive or cheaper. Perhaps somebody can hazard a guess on this. The Linn Majik Kontrol preamp, no longer made, is not as good sounding as the Lejonklou ones, but is still quite good and has a good quality moving magnet or moving coil phono amplifier built in.

I have a friend who has a passive preamp in his valve/electrostatics system, which sounds good. My own experiences have not been so good. I think that impedance matching throughout the volume range is crucial and not always well achieved.

No doubt more learned folk here will tell you more.....
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by tmilligan »

Ah, you've finally introduced yourself!

I confess I am the source of James' rekindled Hifi love, having played him my two systems at various points over the past couple of years.

I am ashamed to say I am also yet to hear the lejonklou pre amps, and also yet to have my tundra upgraded from original 1.0 spec. Both of these must be resolved soon....
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by Ron The Mon »

spidagoat wrote: For my needs I see source selection, remote control, phono stage, and display all as pretty much optional. Volume control and sounding amazing are the only hard requirements. Remote is a nice to have. I don't see a need for a display and expect that the complexity required by preventing it adding noise to the signal would make it an expensive luxury for my needs...
James,
You are totally over-thinking your options! It sounds like your next purchases should be an Oppo 105D and JRiver. This will give you the best sound improvement for the money and sound killer with an LK100 and Katans (especially if you've confirmed Katans sound great in your room). It also ticks off your wants I quoted above.

The Oppo has a built in pre-amp which sounds really good. You could audition other pre-amps at your leisure. The 105D has a setting which disables the control panel a few seconds after any change from the remote; I've confirmed this definitely improves the sound. It has no fans or noisy transformer; mine runs dead silent.

I bought an Oppo 105D because I wanted the best Blu-ray player, regardless of price. It wasn't until I got it in my system that I found I had the best outboard D/A I'd ever heard (I've auditioned over a dozen in my hi-fi over the decades) and the best streamer other than a Linn Klimax. Supposedly it has a really good headphone amp too (you mentioned wife and kids) but I haven't tried it. Netflix on it is outrageously good!

Speaking of Netflix and streaming, do you actually pay for Tidal? Tidal does not sound as good as Spotify using tune-dem. Spotify seems to get a bad rap on this forum, which I don't understand. It can sound really good. In fact, running Fidelify (http://fidelify.net/ a Spotify client) through ASIO, it blows Tidal away in every aspect. Try a free month from Spotify, and download Fidelify and ASIO (both free) and compare it to Tidal. The money you save "downgrading" from Tidal to Spotify will finance JRiver.

JRiver will allow you to re-rip your CDs faster and easier than any method, with the best sound, and it's streaming and ease of use is second to none through the Oppo.

If you're looking for a short term much less expensive solution, try a Beresford D/A converter, I've enjoyed one every day for many years. The reason your Airport Express sounds so good isn't its' DAC but its' streaming capabilities; source-first! I used to stream with my AE through various DACs but now it is just used as a router. It definitely sounds better than an Apple TV for streaming too, but a good DAC will make it shine.

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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by spidagoat »

A very quick thank you for your replies - I will respond more fully in time. But first...

Wow! I am quite speechless. I have just hooked up the LK100 using the pre-outs of the Yamaha, fully expecting only a small improvement. No. Not at all! Blown away! So much detail, so much... silence! Incredible!

Stars, The XX
Prelude to Lohengrin, Richard Wagner (Kollo/Tomowa-Sintow/Nimsgern/Veizovic/Ridderbusch - Karajan / Berliner Philharmoniker)
Hey Hey, Eric Clapton Unplugged
Last Words, GoGo Penguin
A Forest, The Cure

A quick and eclectic selection but I have a silly early start tomorrow (by my standards Tom, not yours!) so bed for me, grinning from ear to ear! More tomorrow.

Paul, it was a pleasure meeting you earlier today. I am absolutely blown away, delighted, speechless! Thank you!
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by moog_man »

Genuinely a pleasure, James - great to read your first impressions.

Here starts the journey that will have you and your closest occasionally questioning your sanity and savings account but enjoying a huge sense of satisfaction with each upgrade.
LK-100 → Katan is a respectable launch point.
Kikkin and/ or Activ cards for the speakers would be next (the latter would require another power amp, of course). Certainly, active Katans will keep you happy for a long time.
And, you have the advantage of a forum member to tempt you further with his combinations.

- Enjoy..
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by spidagoat »

Ron The Mon wrote:
spidagoat wrote: For my needs I see source selection, remote control, phono stage, and display all as pretty much optional. Volume control and sounding amazing are the only hard requirements. Remote is a nice to have. I don't see a need for a display and expect that the complexity required by preventing it adding noise to the signal would make it an expensive luxury for my needs...
James,
You are totally over-thinking your options! It sounds like your next purchases should be an Oppo 105D and JRiver. This will give you the best sound improvement for the money and sound killer with an LK100 and Katans (especially if you've confirmed Katans sound great in your room). It also ticks off your wants I quoted above.
The Oppo looks absolutely amazing and a great fit for my needs, but just a touch outside my budget at the current time!
Ron The Mon wrote:If you're looking for a short term much less expensive solution, try a Beresford D/A converter, I've enjoyed one every day for many years.
Will definitely look in to the Beresford - do you recommend any particular version or model?
Ron The Mon wrote:Speaking of Netflix and streaming, do you actually pay for Tidal? Tidal does not sound as good as Spotify using tune-dem. Spotify seems to get a bad rap on this forum, which I don't understand. It can sound really good. In fact, running Fidelify (http://fidelify.net/ a Spotify client) through ASIO, it blows Tidal away in every aspect. Try a free month from Spotify, and download Fidelify and ASIO (both free) and compare it to Tidal. The money you save "downgrading" from Tidal to Spotify will finance JRiver.
JRiver will allow you to re-rip your CDs faster and easier than any method, with the best sound, and it's streaming and ease of use is second to none through the Oppo.
So currently yes, I am paying for Tidal. I've not done a strict side-by-side comparison but my perception was that Tidal's non-lossless service was very comparable to Spotify's and their lossless somewhat better. I did also find that Spotify completely rubs me up the wrong way when it comes to UX design! The comparison was pre-Katans and streaming from iPhone so overall a pretty muddy listening experience and I will definitely be revisiting in due course. I'll include Fidelity and ASIO in that. On the cash front I am also weighing up subscription streaming services versus spending the cash on a few CDs each month!
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by spidagoat »

donuk wrote:Hi James, and welcome to the forum......

And before anyone else jumps it, I should say that before parting with any money for a preamplifier you are duty bound to listen to a Lejonklou preamp or two. I had my first initiation to them a couple of weeks ago, and I am still boring friends with their magnificence.
Thanks Don. I have heard tmilligan's kikkin/tundra system and I was completely blown away, however the only system I have heard that is even vaguely comparable is his other system. There was significant time, distance and blood-alcohol difference between the two (much ale and whiskey vs much wine!), but still an appreciable difference. Mind blowing detail from the aktiv katans but maybe slightly closer to tears with the Lejonklou.
donuk wrote: Having said, Linn surprisingly recently said that they are not going to make any more analogue preamps. Which means that second hand Linn preamps will either be more expensive or cheaper. Perhaps somebody can hazard a guess on this. The Linn Majik Kontrol preamp, no longer made, is not as good sounding as the Lejonklou ones, but is still quite good and has a good quality moving magnet or moving coil phono amplifier built in.
I suppose that would fit with their whole philosophy of digital-to-analogue as close to the driver as possible. I know very little about turntables, but will they not still need a preamp?
donuk wrote:I have a friend who has a passive preamp in his valve/electrostatics system, which sounds good. My own experiences have not been so good. I think that impedance matching throughout the volume range is crucial and not always well achieved.
Having done a bit more research on the passive preamp side, I'm coming around to seeing that proper matching of components is key. I dusted off some very rusty maths which, as well as hurting my brain, convinced me that I was most likely to get excellent results with a passive pre by accident rather than design!
Overall I'm trying to build a loosely-coupled system - one where there is no more dependency between components than needed so I can, for example, swap in a new power amp without having to change anything else. Doesn't remove the need for checking everything will play nicely first, but my maths did at least suggest that a passive pre would not drive an Akurate or Tundra amp to full power, both of which are future options that I don't want to rule out.
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system - a new addition

Post by spidagoat »

Thank you for your assorted inputs on the subject of pre amps. After much deliberation I went for the pre amp from one of the two finest systems I have ever heard and I am now the proud owner of a Kikkin 2.2. Without doubt the largest step change in listening pleasure from my system so far. An incredible piece of kit Mr Lejonklou!
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you, spidagoat! Good thing you stayed away from passive preamps, they are no fun.

Have you remembered to invert the speaker connections, as mentioned in the Kikkin manual?
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by spidagoat »

lejonklou wrote:Have you remembered to invert the speaker connections, as mentioned in the Kikkin manual?
The seller kindly pointed out that the kikkin inverts phase, so yes I have. Out of curiosity why does the kikkin invert phase? I would expect the answer is tune, but is there a technical reason? A quick skim of the installation manual for the sagatun suggests that it does not invert phase.
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by lejonklou »

The reason why it inverts phase is that the best sounding circuit happened to be inverting. Adding another inverter to cancel it made the sound worse.

Sagatun has a different design that doesn't invert phase.
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

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lejonklou wrote:The reason why it inverts phase is that the best sounding circuit happened to be inverting. Adding another inverter to cancel it made the sound worse.

Sagatun has a different design that doesn't invert phase.
I've been mulling this one over a bit. If you invert phase in the pre amp, does that mean that your interconnects to your power amp are carrying ground on the central signal wire(s) and signal on the ground shielding? Would this make the signal more susceptible to interference? Or does it make no practical difference as the signal is the potential difference between the two? In which case what does the ground shielding bring to the party?

In more practical terms, should it impact on my choice of interconnect? Currently I have Linn Blacks between the Kikkin and LK100. Do I need to be extra-diligent with possible sources of interference?

Apologies for lots of questions - I think I have got myself a bit confused!
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by spidagoat »

A little more evolution has happened since I last had an opportunity to post (excepting the one a little earlier).

The Airport Express has now been relieved from duty and the Kikkin is now being fed from a Beresford Caiman MKII DAC. The Beresford is being powered by a Poweradd Apollo Pro - basically a 23000mAH rechargeable battery pack with a solar panel built in. The idea is to eliminate as much "wallwart" noise as possible. It sounds stunning - more detailed, a more three dimensional soundstage... but much much more musical - close your eyes and Ashkenazy is actually in room! Instruments sound like real instruments, not pale imitations and the whole experience is just so much more captivating. So much so I've had to put a timer on a lamp to remind me to go to bed!

The RaspberryPi now has a PiFi Digi board attached, giving it SPDIF out. The coax connector is so cheap that it terrifies me so I am sticking with TOSLINK, not least to further the plan to maintain full electrical separation between the digital side and the DAC/analogue side. I fully intend to write more about the digital side once I have something a bit more stable and reproducible working - the primary objective of feeding pure unadulterated FLAC across async TOSLINK to a quality DAC is working beautifully, however there are a few idiosyncrasies that need to be ironed out - the main issue at the moment is that everything falls over if the playlist gets to zero and then requires much fiddling and coercion to get it going again!

I've also replaced the Gale XL315 cable runs between the LK100 and Katans with K200 and Deltron 550s. My arm is still aching from splitting 6m of K400! Despite there being no Dulux Colourmatch option available it will allow configurations with much higher WAF. Early days, but initial impressions include a much more detailed sound stage and overall better definition. I'm expecting a lot of variation over the coming weeks as the soldered joints settle after my experience with soldering z-connectors on to the Gale. Whether my cloth ears will detect changes out to four months remains to be seen!
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by rowlandhills »

Sounds like you're making some very rewarding upgrades to your system there! Just remember to sit back and enjoy the music for a while before worrying about the next step...
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Re: spidagoat's evolving system and a question about preamps

Post by lejonklou »

spidagoat wrote:I've been mulling this one over a bit. If you invert phase in the pre amp, does that mean that your interconnects to your power amp are carrying ground on the central signal wire(s) and signal on the ground shielding?
Hi spidagoat!

No, this is not the case at all. The shield remains ground and signal remains signal - shielded from interference inside the cable. The inversion is about polarity: The musical signal is AC - both positive and negative. So when the bass drum is hit - boom! - in phase means that your signal starts by going positive, then fluttering back and forth as the skin of the drum vibrates.

After passing Kikkin, which inverts phase, the signal will instead start by going negative. And all the flutter will be like a mirror image of the original. Positive becomes negative and negative becomes positive. This makes a small but noticeable difference to sound quality. And if you then reverse black and red to the loudspeakers, you have restored the correct polarity.

Choice of interconnects is not affected and neither is anything else.

Does this explanation make sense?
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