Charlie1's System

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-06 12:13

ThomasOK wrote:Lovely room! I agree that the system on the side with a cabinet in between the speakers would be a good possibility and would help hide the speaker cable. Try to keep the cabinet less deep than the speakers to minimize reflections. Ever thought of painting the speaker cable white? Or maybe wrap it in white crepe paper?

I'm not surprised you find it better with the wick turned up considering the larger space. But I think some of the lack of "room-filling" quality has to do with how far away from the system your seating is. Try moving the loveseat up to between those two white bureaus and you'll likely be surrounded by sound (although I'm sure you won't be allowed to keep it that way). Maybe a nice Ekornes recliner that can swivel 360° right there would be the ticket.

Loveseat?! :lol:

I will probably try the other position. Speaker position that is.

The Ekornes looks very comfortable. Not sure I want to be the guy sat on his own in seating position number 1, dead center. Scrap that. Sounds perfects. Maybe a drink in one hand and remote in the other. I'd probably fall asleep after the first track the ways things are at the moment with work etc.

Komri · Post by **Komri** » 2010-02-06 12:15

Charlie1 wrote:
rowlandhills wrote:Charlie - Any chance of a photo? We might be able to make suggestions then about how to improve the WAF of K600 :)
Here's some pics:

I think the K600 stands out less in the photos than in real life and obviously the 4-way mains block will go behind the rack if it all stays. I can only coil one run of K600 under the rack and don't really want to get it cut down. The system could move into the corner and which would remove this issue but I know my wife will want to put a cabinet between the speakers then which I'm not so keen on, but maybe I'll have to compromise on that point.

You do get a bit bombarded by hi-fi as you walk into the lounge and the K600 sticks out badly as does the Ninka of course. I may unbox the 109s and have a listen passive, but am not too keen on the idea of an even smaller sound with less bass.

Finally, the maple doesn't match the other wood in the room (most of which is out of view - dark chinese furniture similar to the corner lamp table), but I guess that could be sorted eventually (at a price)

Loooks great! :)

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-06 15:42

Thanks for everyones kind comment btw

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2010-02-06 16:50

Charlie1 wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:Lovely room! I agree that the system on the side with a cabinet in between the speakers would be a good possibility and would help hide the speaker cable. Try to keep the cabinet less deep than the speakers to minimize reflections. Ever thought of painting the speaker cable white? Or maybe wrap it in white crepe paper?

I'm not surprised you find it better with the wick turned up considering the larger space. But I think some of the lack of "room-filling" quality has to do with how far away from the system your seating is. Try moving the loveseat up to between those two white bureaus and you'll likely be surrounded by sound (although I'm sure you won't be allowed to keep it that way). Maybe a nice Ekornes recliner that can swivel 360° right there would be the ticket.
Loveseat?! :lol:

I will probably try the other position. Speaker position that is.

The Ekornes looks very comfortable. Not sure I want to be the guy sat on his own in seating position number 1, dead center. Scrap that. Sounds perfects. Maybe a drink in one hand and remote in the other. I'd probably fall asleep after the first track the ways things are at the moment with work etc.

Yeah, it does kind of give the feeling of the male throne, doesn't it? :) But they are great chairs.

As to loveseat, that is just what a two-thirds sofa is called in the US (I guess because there is just room for two people). So what do you Brits call it?

http://www.artvan.com/Furniture/Store/P ... 0001_30000

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-06 23:53

Tried the other wall. It's a little more tuneful and better sounding than down the end, but not enough improvement to worry about. Sat on the sofa in front you mainly notice the left speaker so for serious listening I'd need the man chair sat dead centre. Sat on the end sofa it definitely sounds like you're round the back somewhat and not hearing things properly - although this is fine for TV.

My wife feels this setup dominates the room too much although does get around the issue of being confronted by a big speaker as you enter the room. I think she's right and it's become the main feature of the room (you get more of a sense of this in the 1st two pics)

Putting the TV on the rack was interesting. Much better sound obviously although speach doesn't seem to come from someone's mouth, so presume that's the draw for getting a centre speaker. My daughter certainly enjoyed watching childrens TV with better sound, but they tend to have a lot of musical content.

After one evening's TV I feel that whilst preferable it's no big deal for us. My wife said she preferred listening to TV dialog via the tele itself and music in TV programmes via the stereo.

Anyone know what sampling rate digital TV uses for the radio stations? You can tell it's not that tuneful albiet much better sounding than my TV. Interesting how bad musicality can be so well presented and well balanced. I can imagine most folks thinking it sounds great, but without realising how much more engaging it can be musically (for me at least). When a radio station plays a song I'm not familiar with then I don't know any different and take it at face value, but when I hear a track I have on LP then it's teadious and a struggle to listen to.

Photos below - First photo (with LP12) was taken just before I tuned the speakers a little and moved the left one further away from the side wall:

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-06 23:54

ThomasOK wrote:Ever thought of painting the speaker cable white?

Yes, I think this could work well. Another option is wrapping/covering it in carpet. It's newly laid so we have plenty spare. My wife doesn't like the idea of white plastic trunking and considering the size of K600 I think she's proabably right. It looks bad enough with the tiny stuff used for hiding a telephone line.

ThomasOK wrote:I'm not surprised you find it better with the wick turned up considering the larger space. But I think some of the lack of "room-filling" quality has to do with how far away from the system your seating is. Try moving the loveseat up to between those two white bureaus and you'll likely be surrounded by sound

Forgot to respond to this. You're quite right - it's absolutely fine halfway down the room. 45RPM also seems to help, oddly.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-07 00:07

rowlandhills wrote:What about getting a couple of shorter bits of K600, rather than cutting down your existing ones? Looks like you could get away with only a meter or so each side, which would be pretty cheap.

Good idea, but I've heard that K600 should be 2.5m minimum - anyone else heard this or similar?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-07 00:13

anthony wrote:A cabinet between the speakers is a fair compromise, try to keep some space between spk and cabinet, and not too high.

I'll try this tomorrow if I get time, leaving the speakers where they are.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2010-02-07 02:44

I thought the speakers were best as before but leave isoblue and cabinet as they are?
No minimum spk cable length but Fredrik will tell us soon!
How about 2 short k400 lengths to each spk, it is less obtrusive.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-07 11:18

anthony wrote:I thought the speakers were best as before but leave isoblue and cabinet as they are?
No minimum spk cable length but Fredrik will tell us soon!
How about 2 short k400 lengths to each spk, it is less obtrusive.

I have a photo of someone using 2 x K400 so will check it out.

Unfortunately I couldn't leave the rack where it was as my existing cable runs are only approx 3m, so it's in the corner.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-07 11:37

Couldn't face moving the rack to the corner knowing that we were never going to leave the speakers in their last position by the fireplace due to asthetics, so move the whole lot back to the end wall, but this time with rack in corner.

I'm not sure this is any better than in the centre of the speakers (when last on the end wall). It's close whatever, but my hunch is that it doesn't sound quite so good. Maybe it's cos the corner is more affected by bass. However, it is the best option asthetically and all these changes are reasonably minor compared to the benefit of the room in general. I think I could stand the speakers upside down and they'd still be better than the old house.

Also tried the beauro between the speakers when last on the end. This wasn't as good as having it beside the fireplace although did open out the sound on the left channel a little when sat down the other end of the room cos it wasn't blocking the sound. Sitting closer gets round this anyway though. As this was easy to compare I did tune dem this and it was more tuneful without it. It sounded a little boxed in as well.

Here's another pic. I think we're done for now, so big thanks to all for the help and advice. I hope the system will have slowly become less obvious as we get used to it being there. Not sure that will ever apply to the K600 but I can try to hide that later.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2010-02-07 13:30

I guess one advantage of this configuration is that the K600 to the speaker on the right can lie flat against the floor, and the K600 to speaker on the left can be coiled under the rack, so it's probably less obvious overall.

Probably one to live with for a few weeks before making any more tweaks though!

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2010-02-07 15:54

That is what I meant by lastest arrangement looks much better!
Could try moving left ninka over couple of inches?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-07 23:04

Thanks Anthony. Moved speaker in a bit away from rack - less tuneful but looks better. Need to spend some time and tune them properly, but these tweaks seem too insignificant at the moment to worry about. That will change I expect once I've got used to the new sound.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-07 23:12

Just for the record - I forgot to mention that both the long walls and end wall behind the system are all external cavity filled walls (the other end is just patio doors.) This is because the study that backs onto the wall behind the system was the first extension so all exterior walls. They later added the lounge as another extension so again the fireplace wall is exterior too.

The house is also 1960/70s so very solid construction. Newer houses we looked at were very hollow when you tapped the walls, even exterior walls. So maybe this construction is a contributing factor. The bass is really tight and powerful (but still melodic and analogue), even by the standards of top digital front ends I've heard in the past.

I will stop going on about it now :roll: I'm sure you all know what I'm like by now - I just can't help myself :) Who's coming round for listen!!?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-02-08 21:57

When is the tea ready? Can I bring biscuits and a record?

I think the very first of your pictures looks best. Seems it sounded best too. But the system in the corner is an ok compromise.

Solid walls are great for the bass - you did some good research there!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-08 23:38

Welcome anytime Fredrik - especially with biscuits! And so long as you don't mind my daughter running round and round in circles chanting her own strange lauguage to your records then you should have a good time :)

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2010-02-12 18:23

Hey Charlie I was going to suggest putting the speakers either side of the fireplace until I saw later photos;is it quite close to the window ie not symmetrical.I'd try it anyway :telly in the right corner..or you could move the fireplace over a bit!?!!
For me the hifi has to look good in the room before I can think about how it sounds..Though I must admit I like symmetry .
Homestead is looking Fab ..Must admit I thought you would have tidied the place up first. :shock:

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-12 18:29

hehe - yes, the lounge is right dump. In fact the playroom is a real distaster zone, so we're not that tidy. Need to put some pictures up at some point.

That's for the suggestion to put either side of the fireplace, but having tried them on that wall already (albiet further up) the Ninkas stick out too much in the room and are too conspicuous. Also - not sure about running K600 across a fireplace.

Where is your system? - never seen any pics :)

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2010-02-12 22:06

when I figure out how to post pics I will(my new tripod's a bit wobbly)..ninkas are either side of fireplace but the hearth is black granite so k400 blends in 2 clear perspex record cubes either side of hearth beside speakers and cable hidden behind cubes ..if you know what I mean.

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2010-02-12 22:08

you could wrap fairy lights round the k600

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-02-12 22:18

:lol:

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2010-02-13 14:30

My wife says go art deco and paint woodwork black

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-14 01:02

Lego wrote:you could wrap fairy lights round the k600

yes, thanks for that constructive bit of advice. Maybe some glow in the dark paint whilst I'm at it. What about some of those cones for suspending cabling off the ground as well?

:D

Lego wrote:My wife says go art deco and paint woodwork black

Another comedian under the same roof.

I hate art deco.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-18 00:53

Converted my Ninkas to passive and just comparing to passive 109s via my 6100/D. They're just stuck on top of the Ninkas at the moment as I don't want to buy stands unless they are going to replace the Ninkas.

They are better all-round than Ninkas for sure, although not hugely (in this setup), and the bottom end just vanished on me. Early days I think - fuller range sound vs better musicality/clearer sound. Also, 109s will be even better properly setup and on stands.

Whilst I love to whack up the volume, 90% of my listening it late at night at low volume so missing out on the bass isn't such a big deal. Also think I need to do this same test upstairs as I will probably move the stereo to a bedroom. Despite the better musicality/sound, I'm not very settled listening down there late at night - it was so much more comfortable in the old house relaxing on a bed late at night :) Maybe I should also give it more time to get used to in the lounge.

Linnofil wrote:A friend of mine who had tri-active Ninkas (2x5125) was a bit surprised when his newly bought 109's was better (in passive mode) on top of his active Ninkas, despite passive mode and 20 meters of crappy cable.

I don't think the 109s are more musical than my tri-aktiv Ninkas fed by a 6100/D, but in all fairness I've not done a 'proper' tune dem and I'm not 100% sure. However, thanks for mentioning this as it's an easy way to compare them to what I'm used to.

Charlie1's System

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