Charlie1's System

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2009-05-29 22:48

Lego wrote:Why dont you use the Kikken and lease out the KK1 ....and that could service the radikal and urika and you still have the kk1 at the end of the day :lol:

Now why didn't I think of that myself. How about a fiver a day Leo? You could just skip lunch

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-02 23:51

After a many weeks or various workman doing all sorts, I've finally setup my system in the main living room. It's much bigger than the old bedroom, measuring 22' x 12' with the speakers firing down the length. It's also concrete floor instead of suspended wooden floor.

I'm posting cos it sounds quite different. Overall significantly better, but not all areas and I'm wondering what members put this down to.

It's more tuneful to start with. More peaceful too. Similar to when I used to listen late at night but much more than that, so I don't think it could be just better mains (we do live in a remote village now). I'm presuming the solid floor is also helping. The sound improvement is very much like Fredrik's comments on the Mimer - unassumingly natural with great subtlety and delicacy. I like it! It's definitely more expressive emotionally. More insight and understanding. Less fatiguing. Some parallels to the Radikal and Dynamik upgrades as well I guess.

The one downside is that the sound is small - the music is very much coming from the end of the room. The old room was about half the size at most, maybe less, and it was like being enveloped by surround sound - you were really in the thick of it. Do I need much bigger speakers to get the old effect I had in the smaller room?

The only other point is that my wife thinks the whole thing looks ugly with horrible cables everywhere. The K600 being public enemy number one, so it might all end up in an upstairs bedroom again. Hope not judging by tonight's performance.

Kit has been plugged in separately and warming up all week by the way, so it was music to my ears straight off the line. Also checked phase is correct. I did tune dem speakers a bit, but certainly not fine tuned yet. Oh, and in the old setup one of the speaker cables was facing the wrong way - never checked it myself, just presumed it was right so don't know how much difference that will be making now that they are both the right way (thanks to springfield for answering that query )

So what do you think? Is it easier to drive speakers in a bigger room - less need to take control than in a small room? Cheers all

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-02-03 00:18

Glad to hear it sounds good, Charlie. Despite the smaller sound.

What you're saying makes sense to me. It's difficult to make exact predicions of rooms without trying them in real life, but some parameters are more general in nature.

Larger rooms often do need bigger speakers (and sometimes more power) to be properly "filled". Small rooms elevate the bass higher up in frequency, which can make speakers sound big and "surrounding".

Small rooms can also, however, make more fuss and problems. Which can sometimes be cured with more control in the system. Just like you suggested. Numerous times people have blamed their rooms for having funny characteristics (like boomy bass at certain frequencies), only to later report that the problem vanished with a quality change in their system. With quality I mean one that has very little to do with frequency response. Such as a change of preamp, which all measure virtually flat in the range of our hearing.

Hope you get to keep those K600 and the system where you prefer to have it!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-03 00:21

Thanks Fredrik. Just listening to Country Fair at the end of 'Veeden Fleece'. A very fine and under-appreciated album (as you know :D). I keep meaning to send you 'Ender's Game' but it's in English and not sure you'll read it? An easy read but that's not to take away from it being superb sci-fi.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-02-03 01:49

Great album indeed! :D

I love good books and often read in English. A problem is that most books tend to be work related. Right now I have 'Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering' by Henry W. Ott on my desk. Not exactly fiction! :lol:

On the other hand, another book I'm (slowly) reading is about Mindfulness. So I hope I'm not entirely a hopeless case.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2010-02-03 10:24

Charlie - Any chance of a photo? We might be able to make suggestions then about how to improve the WAF of K600 :)

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-03 13:08

lejonklou wrote:... another book I'm (slowly) reading is about Mindfulness

Don't think I could concentrate long enough to read that :roll:

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-03 13:11

rowlandhills wrote:Charlie - Any chance of a photo? We might be able to make suggestions then about how to improve the WAF of K600 :)

Yes, will do. I have approval to put it in the study which backs onto the same wall, but she's getting nervous about the idea of massive holes in the wall for the K600! "What experience do have with drilling holes through walls?!" was the latest concern raised. I said, "none, but how difficult can it be!"
I'd also have the issue of the remote control not working but I've read mention of a IR relay. Ever heard of such a device?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-02-04 13:50

Yes, there are devices called IR repeaters. One eye picks up the IR signal and sends it to a separate transmitter. Commonly used when hiding equipment inside cupboards, or in a different room as in your case.

If you get one of these, make sure you get a 36kHz type (Philips RC5 standard), as that is what Linn and I (and most British manufacturers) use.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2010-02-04 14:54

What about using a Basik IR RCU in the lounge to provide volume control and IR relay to your KK?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2010-02-04 17:25

Charlie1 wrote:I have approval to put it in the study which backs onto the same wall, but she's getting nervous about the idea of massive holes in the wall for the K600! "What experience do have with drilling holes through walls?!" was the latest concern raised. I said, "none, but how difficult can it be!"

Boy, do those sound like the epitome of famous last words. :)

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2010-02-04 21:50

Charlie!Dont drill any holes in your wall at best they'll look terrible

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-04 23:36

Lego wrote:Charlie!Dont drill any holes in your wall at best they'll look terrible

Maybe you're right and they would draw attention to themselves baring in mind that it's quite an unusual sight. If I had active LInn or ATCs then I think it would look OK, especially if the hole was at carpet level.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-04 23:44

ThomasOK wrote:Boy, do those sound like the epitome of famous last words. :)

Yes, I know, but I have an impulsive risk taking side to me that needs to be indulged every now and then :) Either that or a stupidity gene.

It's the same approach that could so nearly have spelt the end of my Akiva tonight. The LP12 is just on a rack and so in reach of little fingers. We were having a family dancing like an idiot session to 70s funk - as you do - and changing a 45 my daughter came from no where and went to put her hand around the cartridge. She was less than 1cm away before my distressed scream of 'NO' stopped her. Scarred the hell out of me and her too I'm afraid. I think a wall shelf will be required if the system stays in the lounge.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-04 23:46

rowlandhills wrote:What about using a Basik IR RCU in the lounge to provide volume control and IR relay to your KK?

I must admit that I don't really understand what this involves. Can you explain more?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-02-04 23:54

:lol:

Been there! My LP12 went up on the wall, but my son managed to push the speaker down instead. Luckily only the floor and speaker got a serious dent. For almost a year, I had a "baby fence" around each speaker. The kind that you put your child in back in the day. When older people saw the kid crawling around and the fences around the speakers, they just laughed.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-05 00:01

I know this sounds like overkill but I really think this is the biggest upgrade to the sound that I can ever recall. Had the chance to turn the wick up today and it's made such a big difference. I'm an really struggling to express the scale of improvement and get it across in words. Everything is so much tighter and controlled, like going from old-style vinyl to CD, but in a good way. I'm really quite shocked by the improvement.

It's clearly better musically too, but I have a feeling I've done bigger component upgrades in the past.

I'm also beginning to re-adjust to the smaller sound. Turning up the volume helps expand it but this system will never envelope the room in sound like the old room. There are less 1st reflections in the new too which I guess is another element adding to the better sound.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-05 00:13

lejonklou wrote::lol:

Been there! My LP12 went up on the wall, but my son managed to push the speaker down instead. Luckily only the floor and speaker got a serious dent. For almost a year, I had a "baby fence" around each speaker. The kind that you put your child in back in the day. When older people saw the kid crawling around and the fences around the speakers, they just laughed.

Perimeter fencing - I like it :D

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-05 09:49

rowlandhills wrote:Charlie - Any chance of a photo? We might be able to make suggestions then about how to improve the WAF of K600 :)

Here's some pics:

I think the K600 stands out less in the photos than in real life and obviously the 4-way mains block will go behind the rack if it all stays. I can only coil one run of K600 under the rack and don't really want to get it cut down. The system could move into the corner and which would remove this issue but I know my wife will want to put a cabinet between the speakers then which I'm not so keen on, but maybe I'll have to compromise on that point.

You do get a bit bombarded by hi-fi as you walk into the lounge and the K600 sticks out badly as does the Ninka of course. I may unbox the 109s and have a listen passive, but am not too keen on the idea of an even smaller sound with less bass.

Finally, the maple doesn't match the other wood in the room (most of which is out of view - dark chinese furniture similar to the corner lamp table), but I guess that could be sorted eventually (at a price)

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2010-02-05 10:13

I think the hi fi would look better in the corner. A cabinet between the speakers is a fair compromise, try to keep some space between spk and cabinet, and not too high.
Get an urika and bingo much neater!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-05 11:11

anthony wrote:I think the hi fi would look better in the corner. A cabinet between the speakers is a fair compromise, try to keep some space between spk and cabinet, and not too high.
Get an urika and bingo much neater!

Thanks Anthony. Wow - it could sound even better!!? Another session this morning and I can't believe how much better it sounds. Gobsmacked to be honest - just can't believe it, so much more effortless control and space for the music, but with no detriment to musicality - much better musicality in fact. Is this normal - to experience such an improvement between different rooms? I'm presuming the bigger room and change from suspended wood to concrete floor are the main influences.

Have also noticed that inner grove distortion is noticeably reduced. Distortion as a whole has dropped a lot - I think the Akiva can now really shine. It's the same thing I heard when I dem'd Arkiv B against Akiva - the latter stripping away distortion making the Arkiv sound appear to be breaking up like poor radio reception.

Also, 45RPM does FILL the room better - almost there in fact. Maybe the 6100 is struggling and higher recording level/fuller sound of 45RPM is overcoming this.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-02-05 20:39

Looks great, Charlie! Although I agree that the system is very obvious when entering the room.

You should definitely try the placement to the right of the fireplace. Preferably close to the fireplace and away from the corner. I'm not sure if it will be better than your current placement (probably not with the cupboard in between), but it's worth a try.

What about the TV? Not connected to the system?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-02-05 21:12

lejonklou wrote:What about the TV? Not connected to the system?

That's another reason for trying the system in the lounge. Never played a tele through hi-fi before so interested to know how it affects our enjoyment of tv.

I will also bare in mind the other position. The cupboard could be moved to the right hand wall. It's better for watching TV there too.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2010-02-06 00:56

Lovely room! I agree that the system on the side with a cabinet in between the speakers would be a good possibility and would help hide the speaker cable. Try to keep the cabinet less deep than the speakers to minimize reflections. Ever thought of painting the speaker cable white? Or maybe wrap it in white crepe paper?

I'm not surprised you find it better with the wick turned up considering the larger space. But I think some of the lack of "room-filling" quality has to do with how far away from the system your seating is. Try moving the loveseat up to between those two white bureaus and you'll likely be surrounded by sound (although I'm sure you won't be allowed to keep it that way). Maybe a nice Ekornes recliner that can swivel 360° right there would be the ticket.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2010-02-06 11:31

What about getting a couple of shorter bits of K600, rather than cutting down your existing ones? Looks like you could get away with only a meter or so each side, which would be pretty cheap.

Charlie1's System

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