Charlie1's System

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-05-01 20:34

Have to say, I'm certainly very happy with my Hutters.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-05-02 20:40

Embarrassed to say I jumped to a conclusion last night and got it wrong. Should have checked more thoroughly before wanted to jabber about it to everyone.

Isoblue is more musical to my ears. Hutter still sounds better. I must say I like the Hutter and could happily live with it. Both sound and music are nicely presented. Isoblue is just more engaging and better captures the spirit of the music.

I tested both LP12, Radikal and both at same time, just the two levels on the Isoblue, not three.

I also wanted to comment on how well made the Hutter is. Can't really tell from photos, but it is very much quality furniture.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-05-02 21:01

Thanks for reporting, Charlie!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-08-20 23:53

Table test 827.

Recongnise this anyone?

Took a while to find, that's for sure.

Sadly it's the same old story. Archidee sounds cleaner and faster and sharper and more exciting to begin with, but weeding out the actual musicanship, via some piano sonata, and it was all a bit mechanical and one-dimensional, as if being played by a machine. Whereas the Isoblue had more subtlties and I felt I was listening to a real human play a more interesting and engaging version of the same music. Also tried some John Lee Hooker boogie woogie and the Archidee just didn't keep time so well. Still enjoyable, just not so much boogie going on.

But, I will definitely keep this one. It wasn't too expensive and I wouldn't be at all surpised if it beats the Isoblue rack on solid concrete floor. if my listening room ever moves downstairs then this is the one I'd like to compare the Isoblue against, more than any other, except maybe Mimer.

I really think that the suspended wooden floor in this house, and our previous house, really favours the Isoblue for some reason or other. Any ideas why anyone?

It would be nice to draw some firm conclusions from all this, but I can't see any particular pattern in the various design approaches and their impact on the music. The Isoblue sounds better with less components loaded on it, so it's not just a matter of greater mass being superior. Besides, I think the Hutter was heavier in that comparison.

So far, I've bought Ikea Lack, Ikea Corras, AudioTech, Archidee, Hutter, TimeTable and the Appolo wall shelf. Plus, compared the Isoblue to a Quadrasphire (wooden shelves) at a friend's house.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2012-08-21 04:19

So you finally found an Archidee. Very interesting report. You now have what I have found to still be the best LP12 stand yet but you still favor the IsoBlue. I suppose I will have to find a way to try one of those out but they are not as easy to find in the US (but much easier than the Archidee).

I did have one question. Is the floor you have everything on carpeted as it looks like it might be? If so I would really recommend losing the Skeets under the Archidee and running the spikes through the carpet into the wood floor. This is really how it should be placed and will likely make a substantial difference (although it still may not be the difference you are looking for). Anyway, worth a try.

PS. Unless I'm mistaken I recognize that particular Archidee stand from a recent fleabay auction.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2012-08-21 04:23

Also, does the LP12 normally live on top of the rack to the right, or somewhere else? Curious how much impact it might have on the comparison, and on the timing of the LP12, to have it sitting right next to the speakers, especially if that's not its usual location...

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-08-21 09:02

ThomasOK wrote:I did have one question. Is the floor you have everything on carpeted as it looks like it might be? If so I would really recommend losing the Skeets under the Archidee and running the spikes through the carpet into the wood floor. This is really how it should be placed and will likely make a substantial difference (although it still may not be the difference you are looking for). Anyway, worth a try.

I did start out with spikes into the carpet, but it didn't seem to penetrate very well through the carpet and underlay and was too wobbly. But I've removed the Skeets and left the LP12 to bed it down throughout the day. Maybe I'll have to take a very small screwdriver to the carpet and puncture deeper holes. I did push down as hard as possible and the spikes are not blunt. I think the combination of carpet and underlay (common in UK, not sure about US) means there is a thick layer to get through - OK for heavy speakers, but not this lightweight table.

Also, the shelf isn't as you recommended for the AudioTech, so the spikes penetrate a little too much. The top is untouched and would show the spike holes if I turned it upside down. If it can beat the Isoblue, then I will probably swap sides round in order to optimise it, but will leave it for the time being.

I have to agree that the construction is much more rigid than it looks. It looks like it should bend quite a bit, but it feels very solid to me.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-08-21 09:10

tokenbrit wrote:Also, does the LP12 normally live on top of the rack to the right, or somewhere else? Curious how much impact it might have on the comparison, and on the timing of the LP12, to have it sitting right next to the speakers, especially if that's not its usual location...

Yes, normally on top. I know what you mean. For the Hutter test, I placed the Hutter in front, but it means moving components around so that the LP12 power lead will reach. I might try it in front of the Isoblue, but I've never noticed much difference.

John · Post by **John** » 2012-08-21 14:32

Charlie1 wrote:Table test 827.

I really think that the suspended wooden floor in this house, and our previous house, really favours the Isoblue for some reason or other. Any ideas why anyone?

It would be nice to draw some firm conclusions from all this, but I can't see any particular pattern in the various design approaches and their impact on the music.

So far, I've bought Ikea Lack, Ikea Corras, AudioTech, Archidee, Hutter, TimeTable and the Appolo wall shelf. Plus, compared the Isoblue to a Quadrasphire (wooden shelves) at a friend's house.

I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on how you have the Archidee setup nor the Audiotech if done the same way. The spike and bottom of the stand needs to be unobstucted by the carpet and padding. You also want to avoid having the spikes penetrating the wooden subflooring, ie. pushing down on the stand.

The best way I've found to setup such a stand is to site the stand with the spikes on, take note of where the holes are and then use a sharp razor knife and cut slits through the carpet and padding in a way that allows the spikes to freely contact the subflooring without obstruction. One way to find out if you have been successful is to gently raise the stand, with nothing on it,on one side and lower it back into the holes, if the spikes fall into place and the stand remains very rigid, you are likely good to go.
The spikes need to be long enough so that the bottom of the support does not touch the carpet.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-08-21 15:08

John wrote:I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on how you have the Archidee setup nor the Audiotech if done the same way. The spike and bottom of the stand needs to be unobstucted by the carpet and padding. You also want to avoid having the spikes penetrating the wooden subflooring, ie. pushing down on the stand.

The best way I've found to setup such a stand is to site the stand with the spikes on, take note of where the holes are and then use a sharp razor knife and cut slits through the carpet and padding in a way that allows the spikes to freely contact the subflooring without obstruction. One way to find out if you have been successful is to gently raise the stand, with nothing on it,on one side and lower it back into the holes, if the spikes fall into place and the stand remains very rigid, you are likely good to go.
The spikes need to be long enough so that the bottom of the support does not touch the carpet.

My wife will love you! Cutting the carpet to bits. Still, I will quietly explore the suggestion ;O) It makes sense. The annoying this is that if I keep the Archidee in place, then I’d like to shift across the entire system to leave equal spaces between each speaker. But I might not know until I’ve already taken a knife to the carpet.

Can I just check I understand correctly. The table should not be pushed into the wood floor – just let its own weight (plus LP12) make some intend into the wood?

Pretty sure the spikes are already long enough, but will double check to be certain.

John · Post by **John** » 2012-08-21 15:17

You want to avoid imbedding the spikes into the wood as much as possible other than from what's caused from the weight of what's sitting on the support. The slits in the carpet should be unnoticeable if the stand is relocated, just do the cutting and fiddling when your wife is away. ;-)

You might want to recheck the support a few days once things have settled in to make sure the support is still rigid, level and not rocking at all.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-08-21 23:20

John wrote:You want to avoid imbedding the spikes into the wood as much as possible other than from what's caused from the weight of what's sitting on the support. The slits in the carpet should be unnoticeable if the stand is relocated, just do the cutting and fiddling when your wife is away. ;-)

You might want to recheck the support a few days once things have settled in to make sure the support is still rigid, level and not rocking at all.

Good news! It's improved. So much so, that despite only comparing a few tracks it seems clearly more musical than the Isoblue. I feel somewhat reluctant to give it the full 100% thumbs up, because I've had a false start or two before, but confidence in the Charlie1 premises is high! :O)

I'm also very pleased because keeping the Archidee is a fine way to hide the complete DIY disaster going on behind the scenes. I exagerate a little, but it ain't pretty. I did try cutting the carpet, but may have overdone it. In the end I found that I could use ever larger screwdrivers to puncture a hole large enough for the spikes to be unhindered. It actually sits really nicely now and has a very solid feel to it.

I also shifted the Isoblue to the right beforehand, so that there are equal gaps between the two speakers. And yes, I did re-level the Isoblue before comparing.

COOL! It's good. As I listen now and write, I'm getting other nice benefits in addition to the core musicianship, so it's faster and quite a lot clearer. The latter is a particular welcome benefit as I listen a lot at low volume.

This does mean I didn't evaluate the AudioTech properly either. Ikea and TimeTable didn't have spikes. The Hutter also had a bottom base for carpet without spikes, although could be used without the lower base and using spikes, so maybe that could have done better as well. Mind you, maybe the Isoblue could be better as well. I prefer it with skeets, but never opened up the carpet like this before - I don't want to try!

Special thanks to Tom for bringing the Archidee to my attention, plus some of the setup elements and to John for his helpful posts today.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-08-22 00:07

Cool Charlie!

I want to hear this stand, too, but it's so rare. Spent a while looking, eh?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-08-22 09:12

lejonklou wrote:I want to hear this stand, too, but it's so rare. Spent a while looking, eh?

Yes, took a few years!

Subjected the family to a quick blast at 7am this morning, which was only really appreciated by my 2 year old and myself. Definitely more musical. It’s funny – there have been a couple of things that the Isoblue exhibited that I’d always presumed were ‘correct’ because it was always the more musical support. For example, the decay of notes takes longer with the Isoblue. Where as the Archidee, like other supports, doesn’t do this quite so much. Other supports always sounded more ‘plinky-plonk’ when listening to piano, but now I’m not sure which is actually more accurate in this respect. Anyway, the Archidee is more musical and that’s all I can know for certain.

Slightly shocked all this effort the past couple of years has been worthwhile.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-08-22 11:28

Glad to hear that you're happy with the new stand. It sounds like your patience has paid off.

As I understand it, by the way, the Hutter is designed to have that lower layer spiked through carpet, then the rest sit on another row of spikes so that the bottom two shelves are about 20mm apart and there are two sets of spikes before you get to the first audio components. Might mean that you didn't really give that rack a fair trial either. Sorry!

Personally, I have the lowest layer on feet, not spikes, as my floor is wood and the spikes were scratching it, but then the second layer is isolated by spikes before the first component.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-08-22 11:44

rowlandhills wrote:As I understand it, by the way, the Hutter is designed to have that lower layer spiked through carpet, then the rest sit on another row of spikes so that the bottom two shelves are about 20mm apart and there are two sets of spikes before you get to the first audio components. Might mean that you didn't really give that rack a fair trial either. Sorry!

Personally, I have the lowest layer on feet, not spikes, as my floor is wood and the spikes were scratching it, but then the second layer is isolated by spikes before the first component.

Thanks Rowland. Yes, I think my Hutter is the same as yours – a lower base with feet and a spiked bottom shelf for components that sits on top, so I have both options (feet or spikes.)

It’s not been collected yet, but I’m not in any hurry to get the Standley knife out again, so I think I’ll have to let that one rest. To clarify, I tested the Hutter with feet (using the base) and with spikes and skeets (without base). I did try spikes without skeets, but preferred with. Of course the spikes were not through to the floor boards in the same way as the Archidee is now, so you’re right, perhaps not the optimum configuration. I still rate the Hutter highly though. Sounded very good and wonderfully well made.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2012-08-22 22:15

Ah yes, that photo looks like you have the same setup I did, and I'd probably have used skeets if I'd been on carpet too...

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-09-02 11:33

Just a quick update to say how good the Archidee is. The removal of hash/distortion combined with better musicality is really rewarding after searching all this time. The Isoblue was masking a lot of information and clarity. I pretty much knew this anyway, based on other comparisons with other supports that were ulitmately less musical. Seems to benefit the low end most of all. I'm also listening quite a few clicks higher on the Kikkin, can't help it. Hard to relate the musical benefit to other upgrades. My feeling is that the Ekos SE was more fundamental, but that's just a hunch. Not tried the Radikal on it yet, but will do.

John · Post by **John** » 2012-09-02 23:55

Charlie,

Glad to hear the Archidee stand is working out for you!

Best,
John

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-10-04 23:20

Since my recent shift to using silent repetition of all or most instruments being played, I really wanted to revisit the Archidee. In truth, I have not been so keen to listen to music each evening since its arrival. Listening simply hasn't offered quite the same satisfaction and allure. The Archidee sounds brilliant compared to the Isoblue, but what's the point if you're not enjoying music so much.

So, I re-compared the two and decided the Isoblue is better. I can better follow multiple elements at once, using silent repetition. The Isoblue really brings the music together and engages me more. This backs up my normal listening which is now rejuvenated and back to wanting to listen daily, rather than feeling I should cos what's the point of having such a nice stereo otherwise.

The Isoblue's weaknesses still remain, but I am more contented with it now that I've had a proper look over the fence to check how green the other grass really is. At the moment, only the Harmoni range of racks still maintain any interest for me, but its expense means it will probably remain out of reach.

In case anyone is getting excited about a possible Archidee sale, I will be keeping it. It's much less suseptable to footfall and so better for when my offspring wish to dance/jump around the room. Plus any change of flooring might bring about a different result, so I want to hang onto it just in case.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2012-10-05 07:39

Charlie1 wrote:Since my recent shift to using silent repetition of all or most instruments being played,

And how did you evaluate before?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-10-05 09:12

Music Lover wrote:And how did you evaluate before?

I only ever tried to silently repeat one melody per comparison, so one instrument or a group of instruments playing the same tune. I wouldn't attempt to repeat the whole lot, cymbals, drums, vocals, guitar, bass etc., and often there is more than one melody at a time.

I find trying to do the whole lot at once makes differences more obvious. The brain work required is greater, so if A is less good than B, then it can be much more of a struggle, in comparison. I think I first came across this concept at an Ivor tune-dem talk. I seem to recall he suggested we start with one element and then expand it to include more and more. Unfortunately, I decided to keep it simple and carry on with what I was used to.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » 2012-10-05 14:24

Music Lover wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:Since my recent shift to using silent repetition of all or most instruments being played,
And how did you evaluate before?

This is useful for evaluating all the instruments together....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2xOw-VXe_g

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-10-05 14:25

So Isoblue beats the Archidee? Quite a surprise, given what I've heard about them from others. I'd really like to get my hands on that Archidee... Perhaps an auction could make the price go through the roof? Worth considering, don't you think? :)

Regarding you evaluation, I'm a bit confused, because I don't get results that differ with how many instruments is playing. From a symphony orchestra, to massively distorted rock, to a single note on a piano - when one type of music makes more sense, all other types make more sense as well. At least to my ears.

I know that it's difficult to describe what one actually does when using the Tune Method. Music Lover has correctly pointed out that in many texts (including mine), it can appear as if one is searching for clarity. What one really should judge is how clear the message of the music is. That involves moving our focus one level higher, from the perception of all sounds (which so many audiophiles are busy with) to the perception of what all the sounds are saying. The more the music makes sense, the better the reproduction is.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-10-05 14:50

lejonklou wrote:Regarding you evaluation, I'm a bit confused, because I don't get results that differ with how many instruments is playing. From a symphony orchestra, to massively distorted rock, to a single note on a piano - when one type of music makes more sense, all other types make more sense as well. At least to my ears.

I know that it's difficult to describe what one actually does when using the Tune Method. Music Lover has correctly pointed out that in many texts (including mine), it can appear as if one is searching for clarity. What one really should judge is how clear the message of the music is. That involves moving our focus one level higher, from the perception of all sounds (which so many audiophiles are busy with) to the perception of what all the sounds are saying. The more the music makes sense, the better the reproduction is.

I would say that I just find it easier to use silent repetition of all the instruments. I think I simply got it wrong first time around, as experienced by the fact I was not enjoying music so much via the Archidee.

As for my recent Tundra comments and finding the Tundra better when following a single instrument and the 4200 better following everything, I am still not 100% sure either way. I experienced it both ways on separate occasions, so both the Tundra and 4200 better when following one instrument. Maybe I am just not that good at the Tune Method. I have certainly struggled with it in the past, as previous forum posts highlight. But the expanded silent repetition works better for me.

As for listening for the message. That seems like normal listening to me. How do you listen for a message? Isn’t that just being more or less engaged?