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monkeydevil
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Post by monkeydevil »

Those "free upgrades" are so nice!
Actually I did also check for the best output this weekend - on my ADS. It took 3-4 seconds in an AAB test to find out wich one was the better. And of course I had been using the worst performing output for two years!
It was a really nice improvement in my case, like getting a better power cord maybe. How did you experience the difference on the Linto?
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Post by Charlie1 »

monkeydevil wrote:Those "free upgrades" are so nice!
Actually I did also check for the best output this weekend - on my ADS. It took 3-4 seconds in an AAB test to find out wich one was the better. And of course I had been using the worst performing output for two years!
It was a really nice improvement in my case, like getting a better power cord maybe. How did you experience the difference on the Linto?
Nice to hear your ADS tweak was rewarding. It is frustrating when you reaslise that. Actually, I was already on the best Linto ports, however a few months ago I checked the KK and had moved from the best to worth inputs when we moved house. That was a nice improvement going back to the better ones - much more flowing musically.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Finally had time to put up the Apollo wall shelf that’s been knocking around several years. I was vaguely hopeful. The result is that it sounds better, cleaner, quieter, more controlled and …… less musical of course! – the usual story :o( I don’t feel inclined to spend £200 trying out a Quadraspire wall shelf. Although I’m sure a Quad shelf would be better than the Apollo, I don't fancy the risk based on this result.

I have to conclude that the Isoblue is just very good and suits the two rooms I’ve had it in (both suspended wooden floor). I should be pleased, but was hoping for an upgrade to be honest.

I also tried the LP12 on the shelf whilst at the same time moved the Radikal to the top of the Isoblue rack. That complicated things, and I thought for a moment that maybe the Radikal being optimised was more important than the deck itself, but I don’t think so.

As usual with these rack tests, I found it quite tricky to tune dem with the sound changing quite a bit, although the wall shelf did not improve the sound as much as the AudioTech table – that seemed to add a character all of itself – very 1980s Linn, at least it seemed that way through 25 years of haze.

I had discounted the Sunuko-Vent having read that it is similar to the AudioTech, but perhaps as a tall rack (like the Isoblue), it would compete better. Of course, I'd still like to hear the Harmoni Mimer.

Another way forward could be with the Isoblue racks themselves which are actually not too expensive (approx. £100 a tier). Perhaps a second rack with Radikal on top? I’ll take all the kit off my rack and see how different levels of tiers impact the Radikal alone. Maybe load some heavy books and see what that does (simulating components weighing it down) as I don’t know what is best for the Radikal/Isoblue combo. Should do the same with the LP12 really. Any suggestions welcome. Ciao for now.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Did the Apollo you tested have a shelf of glass of some type of wood composite (MDF, particle board)? I have not been fond of the glass shelf versions.

I seriously doubt you would find a Quadraspire Wall shelf better than the Apollo if it has the wood composite shelf.

You are making me think I should somehow get a listen to an IsoBlue rack - although it would have to be really something to make me give up my Archidee/Harmoni setup.
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Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:Did the Apollo you tested have a shelf of glass of some type of wood composite (MDF, particle board)? I have not been fond of the glass shelf versions.

I seriously doubt you would find a Quadraspire Wall shelf better than the Apollo if it has the wood composite shelf.

You are making me think I should somehow get a listen to an IsoBlue rack - although it would have to be really something to make me give up my Archidee/Harmoni setup.
The Apollo does have a glass shelf. Perhaps it would be worth getting some MDF cut and try that whilst it is up. My wife's reaction to the shelf & LP12 was perfectly in character, sacastically commenting, 'nice cables running down the wall.'

I took the Isoblue to a friend's house tonight and we compared it to his Quad Q4 rack (wood shelves), placing the KDS1 on the same tier of each. It was same as usual, we both thought the Isoblue better musically and smoother sounding, but a bit laid back. The Quad was better sounding, being more precise and dynamic. It was actually a much easier dem than KDS1/KK1 vs KDSM.

I can't believe the Isoblue would be musically as good as the Harmoni Mimer, but at this rate, who knows!
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Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for your continued reports about HiFi supports, Charlie.

Never heard or seen the Apollo, but Isoblue sure sounds more and more interesting! I hope we some day can arrange a demo with a Harmoni rack at your place. It sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I'd definitely recommend trying a piece of MDF. If you still have the AudioTech around just use that shelf - it is the same as the one used on the Archidea and should work well on the Apollo. If you don't have it just have a piece of MDF that is about 3/8" thick cut to the same dimensions as the LP12 plinth (or a bit bigger if needed to fit on the Apollo spikes). The AudioTech/Archidea shelf is just this kind of MDF with a plastic laminate skin.

Fredrik, the Apollo wall shelf is a tubular frame unit very similar to the one from Target if you have ever seen one of those.
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Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:I'd definitely recommend trying a piece of MDF. If you still have the AudioTech around just use that shelf - it is the same as the one used on the Archidea and should work well on the Apollo. If you don't have it just have a piece of MDF that is about 3/8" thick cut to the same dimensions as the LP12 plinth (or a bit bigger if needed to fit on the Apollo spikes). The AudioTech/Archidea shelf is just this kind of MDF with a plastic laminate skin.
Thanks Thomas. We are having some fire doors hung at the moment and the builder said he'd make up a piece to fit this week. The AudioTech isn't deep enough to reach the spikes front to back.

Incidentally, the glass shelf rattles when he's drilling downstairs. You can't feel it with your fingers and wouldn't know there was any ribration otherwise, but just goes to show.
lejonklou wrote:I hope we some day can arrange a demo with a Harmoni rack at your place. It sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
Yes indeed, that would be great, now that I have some funds set aside. I'm not sure when 'some day' will be - you'll have to beat Linn to the their next LP12 development though :O)
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2011-12-10 20:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Checked out the Isoblue with just Radikal today - rest of the kit on the floor. Clearly more musical empty, although not quite so well controlled a sound. I used piles of LPs on the shelves below. Therefore, another Isoblue rack would make logical sense.

Reference optimum number of shelves, I was quite pleased at first because I thought I'd found a sweet spot of four shelves (base + 3 tiers), with Radikal on top. However, it turned out that the individual shelves vary musically and have priority. By the time I'd worked out the best tier and retested (with the best shelf always on top), then all 4 tiers was best.

I made a start with the LP12 alone on the rack and Radikal on the floor, but my Tune Method abilities were fading fast by then, so need to come back to that.
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Post by Charlie1 »

System sounded really great tonight. A couple of dance numbers favoured by my girls before their bath seemed to be more musical than I ever recall with the KK insitu and Radikal/Linto on the lower shelves of my rack. Everything has been unplugged and cleaned up too and I took more care centering all the components on each shelf, as per Linnofil's recommendations a long time ago. Didn't need a Urika after all, just optimise what I already own! :o)

Hard to tell what the Kikkin2 upgrade has done, because I'd not got accustomed to the Kikkin1 and moving the Radikal has impacted sound and musicality, but the top end seems particularly refined, so I wonder if this is improved. The system sound isn't as super-clean and tidy now, compared to the KK, but it is not that far off, and overall, it is working out very well and I have a much better looking bank balance. Good work Fredrik! We want more - no pressure :)

Thinking very long term, I am getting ever more tempted by 'more wants more's idea of Slipsik/Adikt, instead of keeping the Linto and getting a Klyde. A Klyde is still £800 a pop. With the Adikt, I just don't need to worry about it anymore. If Linn were due to release an updated Klyde then I might be tempted, but I've not heard anything suggesting this will happen. Thoughts anyone?
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Post by SaltyDog »

Sounds like something I would consider. I just can't justify the expense of a MC. The clock running regardless of use. Operating an analogue system has so many variables - can someone ever be content? At what cost? For how long?
My KDS gives me more time to listen to music. It allows me to be content.

I used to tune 911s with multi-carbs and each owner would be thrilled when picking up their pride and joy. But then 15,000 miles later....
My 09 M3 gives me more time to just drive.. There still is something so special about the air-cooled Porsche - but I am at a place in time where the upkeep is something I just don't want to deal with. Would I pass on a chance to take one for a spin? No. But I am content to just appreciate someone else having that experience and just keep my memories.

The LP12 - KDS analogy with Posche-BMW M is for me a matter of the more practical being less expensive.

The difference between MM and MC buys a lot of music.

If time and money made no difference ...........

Good luck whatever way you go.
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Post by Charlie1 »

SaltyDog wrote:Sounds like something I would consider. I just can't justify the expense of a MC. The clock running regardless of use. Operating an analogue system has so many variables - can someone ever be content? At what cost? For how long?
My KDS gives me more time to listen to music. It allows me to be content.

I used to tune 911s with multi-carbs and each owner would be thrilled when picking up their pride and joy. But then 15,000 miles later....
My 09 M3 gives me more time to just drive.. There still is something so special about the air-cooled Porsche - but I am at a place in time where the upkeep is something I just don't want to deal with. Would I pass on a chance to take one for a spin? No. But I am content to just appreciate someone else having that experience and just keep my memories.

The LP12 - KDS analogy with Posche-BMW M is for me a matter of the more practical being less expensive.

The difference between MM and MC buys a lot of music.

If time and money made no difference ...........

Good luck whatever way you go.
Thanks Salty. The old 911 and LP12 get compared quite a lot don't they. You're right - the LP12 is like your old air cooled Porsche. You've got the T-shirt too. Did you recently say you bought your deck out of storage, or were considering it?

But I think you should get the old girl working again as a low cost bit of fun and a way to enjoy old analogue recordings at their best. Even cut price 80s reissues can sound fabulous compared to a modern digital recordings. At least this is the case with the majority of pop/rock, to my ears.

I know some people say that the format should be less important than the music and not govern what you play, but sometimes I put on a modern pop/rock LP and just think 'yuk - no thanks, let's have something more musical.' Of course, occassionally I hear something that just grabs me completely and it doesn't matter if it is a car stereo of MP3 player, but this is less often now I've ploughed though 40 years worth of classic pop.
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Post by SaltyDog »

I have got the LP12 setup so that it operates. It is by no means optimized. I have only played 1 album. Fleetwood Mac Rumors. The result - I bought two new Fleetwood Mac 24 bit downloads. Tusk and Tango in the Night.

It just doesn't make me want to play it like it did before. It could well be that the suspension of the Dynavector MC is the issue. It could be that the KDS is just that good. The DS changed the way I listen. I have bought more music in the last three years than I did in the 29 years before. My LP12 is a 1980 model.

One day it will be fun to get back into it. I don't feel like I'm missing out in the mean time.

By the way my 12 year old daughter (turns into a teenager on New years Day) has just denounced modern pop and gotten into Elvis, The Beatles, Carl Perkins and a lot of the Classic Rock I listen to. This is better than an upgrade. Something I hope you get to experience in the future.
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Post by Charlie1 »

SaltyDog wrote:I have got the LP12 setup so that it operates. It is by no means optimized. I have only played 1 album. Fleetwood Mac Rumors. The result - I bought two new Fleetwood Mac 24 bit downloads. Tusk and Tango in the Night.

It just doesn't make me want to play it like it did before. It could well be that the suspension of the Dynavector MC is the issue. It could be that the KDS is just that good. The DS changed the way I listen. I have bought more music in the last three years than I did in the 29 years before. My LP12 is a 1980 model.

One day it will be fun to get back into it. I don't feel like I'm missing out in the mean time.

By the way my 12 year old daughter (turns into a teenager on New years Day) has just denounced modern pop and gotten into Elvis, The Beatles, Carl Perkins and a lot of the Classic Rock I listen to. This is better than an upgrade. Something I hope you get to experience in the future.
Funnily enough, we played a bit of Rumours on the KDS1 the other evening. It was very musical and enjoyable. Not quite as musical as a top spec LP12 and missing a bit of swing to the beat, but still VERY rewarding, so I do agree. And your deck sounds like it is performing a fair bit below a Klimax LP12, so understandable you are more than happy with the KDS1 instead.

But, don’t you fancy just keeping it out on display and firing it up now and then when the mood takes you. Take it to Thomas for a service, new cartridge, maybe new motor or whatever is needed to ensure it is properly tuned up (like your old 911s). Perhaps a trampolin2 so it can sit on a heavy rack of sideboard without being an issue. It could be a low cost, and still a low maintenance alternative to the KDS. You’ll be able to visit local charity shops and buy some cheesy classics from the 80s or while away some time at the occasional record fair if willing to spend a bit more on vinyl. And you can’t beat watching an LP12 spinning with some nice low lighting or candles, especially on a cold winter's night. Maybe your daughter would take an interest in using it too, to play her new found favourite artists – or has that happened already?
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Post by SaltyDog »

In time I will find its pleasures again. I have about 600 mostly 70's and 80's records. Maybe 10% duplicated on digital.

The money involved and the lack of dealers in my area make this tough. Thomas is 5 hours away. (The way I drive ;0) ) Some day I do want to get there. January and February are sometimes slower with work, but travel then is risky. The snow belt is between us.

All the upgrades to get to top level - plinth, top plate, motor, sub chassis, phono stage, base, arm, cartridge..........leaves me with a smoked lid. And waiting.
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Post by Charlie1 »

SaltyDog wrote:Thomas is 5 hours away. (The way I drive ;0) ) Some day I do want to get there. January and February are sometimes slower with work, but travel then is risky. The snow belt is between us.
Maybe if you had one of those air-cooled 911s then you'd be there in no time...;o)

Actually, you'd probably end up in a ditch, what with all that snow. I guess you use snow tires on your M3 anyway.

To my mind, cheap and well setup is much the best option at this point. Spend the minimum on upgrades, but get it optimised. Mats, belts, new AC motors, Adikts, and top plates are not too expensive. Start throwing money at it only if you listen to it more and more. Then it would be some time later and you will be more than happy for make another 10 hour round trip.
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Post by lejonklou »

I just love how you describe the LP12, Charlie. It makes me want to stay at home and spin records instead of going back to the lab.

I agree with the 'cheap and well setup' recommendation. It sure doesn't have to be expensive to bring out the magic in the music, but that it's well setup is essential.

On some records, even a modest LP12 easily outperforms a KDS, in my opinion.
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Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:It makes me want to stay at home and spin records instead of going back to the lab.
A romantic notion, but there is truth in it. And any man than can really appreciate fine mechanical engineering, like an air-cooled 911, is bound to appreciate classic engineering design in the living room. Plus, finely crafted solid wood is easier on the eye than solid aluminium :O)

I could be asking for trouble though, if I tempt Salty and he later comments it was a waste of money :o( There is always that danger. I'd better shut up now ...(Note: this paragraph is my poor effort at a disclaimer - complete cowardice and frantic back peddling!)
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Post by SaltyDog »

A 911 in the living room. Now that might be a waste of money.

I wonder what the best value LP12 setup would be.

Charlie tries to get Salty Dog to revisit the LP12 world and Salty Dog tries to get Charlie into the ATCs.
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Post by Charlie1 »

SaltyDog wrote:Charlie tries to get Salty Dog to revisit the LP12 world and Salty Dog tries to get Charlie into the ATCs.
Oh yeah - forgot about that. Not quite the right time at the moment though.
SaltyDog wrote:I wonder what the best value LP12 setup would be.
I'm thinking that unless you keep it low key and minimal expense then it will become all serious and drain the fun out of it. After all, you already have a primary top-spec front end. I wouldn't upgrade it at all at this point, so long as it has a Linn arm/cart and is expertly setup. Maybe a new plinth to match your current taste/decor. Similar to Fredrik, someone recently told me about a Valhalla LP12 they serviced and it sounded amazing on their Klimax system.
SaltyDog wrote:A 911 in the living room. Now that might be a waste of money.
Great idea - a 911 instead of a TV. There's plenty of room for an LP12 too :o)

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Post by Charlie1 »

Just to round off the wallshelf tests. Compared top of Isoblue to the wallshelf using a 0.5 inch think piece of MDF. Isoblue much better. Not sure if it was the choice of music or the fact the MDF didn't seem to sound as impressive, but the musical benefit was very clear and seemed important too.
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Post by SaltyDog »

I am still impressed with the Porsche suspension.

Is there any metal at all in the iso blues?
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Post by Charlie1 »

SaltyDog wrote:Is there any metal at all in the iso blues?
Spikes under the base, but that's all. I don't know how it looks to anyone unfamiliar with it, but it is very stable despite the tiers just resting on one another. I read on the Naim forum a while back that Colin Macey was asked for feedback by the designer before it was finalised, so its development may well have had some feedback reference musicality. Apart from that, I don't know to what extent its musical abilities were luck or not as I know nothing about the designer and his methods. It is certainly popular with a number of Linn dealers here in the UK.

Just looking at pics of it online and found this - never even considered using another base:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... QIr0mJrvfQ
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Post by ThomasOK »

SaltyDog wrote:Charlie tries to get Salty Dog to revisit the LP12 world and Salty Dog tries to get Charlie into the ATCs.
Thomasok is into both (and has been for some time!).
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Post by Charlie1 »

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into this thread, another rack appears. But good news! Initial tune dems suggest this is a winner, at least with the Radikal. I think the LP12 too, but it was not so decisive and I need to check more - always fiddly with the LP12.

The Radikal is so great for checking racks - again tonight I thought 'this is crazy, how is moving this box going to make any difference!' But immediately it's obvious the sound and music change straight away.

Image

So the Hutter sounds nicer, more finesse to the sound, a bit less compressed and muddy (i.e. clearer) and it comes with the vital component of being more musical at the same time, unlike everything else tried so far.

More testing to do, maybe with another shelf on the Isoblue to even up the wood quota, but I have a feeling this will not make much difference.

Also want to compare both LP12 and Radikal at same time on each rack.

Laters...
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