Charlie1's System

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Charlie1
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Charlie1's System

Post by Charlie1 »

I'm really looking for upgrade advice, but thought I'd add my system in the process. This is how it currently stands: -

- LP12 (circa 1990) fitted with new motor, Cirkus and plinth 3yrs ago. Recently upgraded to Lingo 2, Keel, Trampolin 2, Ekos SE, and Akiva. It's only lacking the top plate fixing now.
- Majik Kontrol
- Chakra 6100 with Aktiv cards for Ninka's
- Maple Ninka's with Polymer stands
- K600 Speaker Cable
- Silver Interconnects
- Isoblue rack

As you can see I've taken the source first thing to as far as I can (apart from Linto), but if it wasn't for the recent SE upgrades, I would have invested elsewhere to balance things out a bit. I'd ideally like a second hand Klimax Kontrol next, but funds will not permit this after the LP12 upgrades, but I do have approx £1800 for an upgrade.

I purchased the existing speakers and pre/power amp about a year ago. After the inital excitment had died down, I found the system a bit too soft and warm. However, the Keel upgrade has largely resolved that by giving the deck a more CD-like presentation and the Akiva bought forward the treble which also helped the overall balance. Also, thanks to forum members here, I was able to apply the Tune Method to speaker positioning which was a big improvement (this was orginally performed by my Linn dealer, but I subsequently changed the room all around and messed it up completely!) However, the system is still a little polite sounding, although this does mean that it's never irritating. Having heard Linn speakers with the K array, I think they would provide a better balance.

The room is moderate in size (4 x 2.7m), so stand mounts should work OK, but I find the bass of my existing Ninka's about the right amount, so I'm not sure loosing bass would be a good idea. It could end up being an expensive mistake. If I were prepared to put Tune Dem ahead of ALL other considerations, then it would be different, but I'm not at that stage yet.

There is one other small issue. Despite the system having a slightly smooth laid back presentation, it can still be a touch waring after long listening sessions. It was suggested to me that this is probably down to the Majik Kontrol because it can be a little 'in your face' after a while and that a Klimax Kontrol would resolve the problem. What do other members think?

Of course, this is mostly hi-fi stuff and having experienced the importance of Tune Dem, I'd essentially like to make the investment count most in this area. The more I think about it, the more options there are available, but because I want to use 2nd hand equipment as much as possible, I can't Tune Dem each varient, so any help would be much appreciated. Here's a few ideas, but please say if you think I've missed anything: -

1.) Buy new Linto and Silver IC for approx £1300. The phono stage in the Majik Kontrol is well thought of, so would the Linto provide much improvement in the context of my system?

2.) Sell Majik Kontrol and replace with 2nd hand Akurate Kontrol. Net cost £1,800 (eventually, but I'd have to wait a while for one to pop up at the price). I have heard that the Akurate doesn't provide much of an improvement for the additional cost.

3.) Sell 6100 and replace with 2nd hand 4200. Net cost £1000. I've read here that this makes a worthwhile upgrade to both hi-fi and Tune Dem.

4.) Sell 6100 and Ninka's. Replace with second hand 2200 and new Majik 140s. Net cost £1500. I get the impression that Aktiv really benefits Tune Dem. Would the move to passive cancel out the benefits of a new speaker that has better Tune Dem?

5.) Sell Ninka's. Buy 2nd hand 2100 plus new Majik 140s and new aktiv boards. This would be over budget at approx £2000+ Might be worth saving up for though.

6.) Keep 6100 and Wait for stand mount version of the Majik 140 along with new aktiv cards and stands. Cost approx £1,800. I'd need to be happy with the loss of bass in exchange for the better Tune Dem. Hard to tell and could be an expensive mistake.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2014-10-13 12:28, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Top heavy system

Post by Music Lover »

Charlie1 wrote: I'd ideally like a second hand Klimax Kontrol next, but funds will not permit this after the LP12 upgrades, but I do have approx £1800 for an upgrade.
Listen to your heart.
Get a KK!
But get a Linto first.
And you need one with the KK anyway...
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by Azazello »

I think Linto is the way to go. Borrow one from you dealer and hear for yourself, should not be a problem if you consider buying a new one.
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Post by Lego »

Hi Charlie,
Whats the LP12 sitting on ?
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Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Leo, It's on top of an Isoblue rack http://www.isobluehifi.com/mainmenu.html (The bottom shelf does have spikes, but you can't see them on the photo). Mine is made from solid ash and quite heavy which is why I use the Trampolin2. Out of interest, I Tune Dem'd it against an Ikea table and the Isoblue was better. Why, have you got something in mind?
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Azazello and ML, I think I will wait and see if a second hand one comes on the market and put the rest towards a Klimax Kontrol in the very distant future. Unfortunately, used Linto's are few and far between. Of course, if Linn were to ever release a Klimax Linto, then it would be a different matter. Have you guys heard any news on that?
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Post by Pediatrik »

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Post by Azazello »

Charlie1 wrote:Of course, if Linn were to ever release a Klimax Linto, then it would be a different matter. Have you guys heard any news on that?
Nope, there has bee rumours for several years, but i don't know of any more than that. Even if one is released, I don't think it will have such impact on the price of used Lintos since it is likely to be horribly expensive :roll: so a used Linto should be a fairly safe investment.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I'm with Music Lover, a KK and a Linto will give you a major performance boost. The Linto is an amazingly good phono stage and once you have it you will be well positioned for a Klimax Kontrol. And by the time you save up enough for the Klimax Kontrol I might even have one available.

I personally feel that once you are used to Aktiv it is hard to go back to passive. Somehow I doubt you would really be happy going from Aktiv Ninkas to passive Majik 140s although they do have more high frequency presence and openness which is something you are looking for. Still I think it might be more of a side-grade than an upgrade although I haven't directly compared the two combinations so that is just speculation.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Azazello wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:Of course, if Linn were to ever release a Klimax Linto, then it would be a different matter. Have you guys heard any news on that?
Nope, there has bee rumours for several years, but i don't know of any more than that. Even if one is released, I don't think it will have such impact on the price of used Lintos since it is likely to be horribly expensive :roll: so a used Linto should be a fairly safe investment.
All I know is that Linn is still working on it but I don't know whether we'll see it this year or not. I have a feeling that the rather large improvements of the Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin2 have given them a much better signal for evaluating the pieces further down the line. This could lead to them trying to push performance even farther with the Klimax Linto and Klimax Lingo. And that could lead to a longer time before they come out. But Charlie1 is right that the Klimax Linto coming out would mean more Lintos coming on the second hand market. I think Azazello is also right that the Klimax Linto will put little downward pressure on secondhand Linto prices as it will likely be at least 3 or 4 times as expensive.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Thomas for all the feedback - really useful. A Linto is the way to go it seems. I'm glad forum members think it's worth the investment as it would also finish off my LP12 upgrades :)
And I better get saving for that Klimax Kontrol. In fact, I think I need a new job more than anything, but keep me in mind for that 2nd hand model one day.
Actually, my ideal Linn product would be a Klimax Linto with build-in line stage so that it could be connected directly to a power amp. As I don't listen to anything but LP, this would suit me just fine. In fact, I think I'll email Linn in the morning and suggest it - in the interest of good customer service of course!
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Post by Lego »

Hi Charlie' plugging it straight into amps' I dont think it is as straight forward as that.You can do it with the Genki but through a decent pre amp it always sounds better;Is that correct gents?
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Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Pediatrik, sorry I forgot to reply to you re the Linto on ebay. I had seen it, but unfortunately all my kit is silver, so I'm only looking for a silver one - which makes them it harder to find. I'll get there though.

Hi Leo, I didn't realise that. I just presumed it would be a cleaner signal, but obviously not.
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Post by lejonklou »

I have to disagree with you here, Lego. The functions that a preamp performs can easily be incorporated into a source component. In fact, there are clear advantages with this approach.

One is that the switching between different sources can be omitted. When only the volume control remains, you can achieve even higher fidelity.

A second is that there is one less interconnect (and associated output stages and/or input stages) to degrade the sound.

The reason that the volume control of the Genki didn't sound as good as a separate preamp was not that it was integrated into the CD player. The reason was that the idea wasn't well executed - they put a simple volume control into the simplest CD player. They could as well have put the best volume control into the best CD player. The question is just if Linn wants to do that.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Fredrik is quite correct about level controls in source components - done properly they could be an ideal solution for a single-source system.

The problem with the idea of a Klimax Linto with a line stage and volume control is that the single input makes it a unit with very limited appeal and therefore unlikely to be made. It would sell better if you had a few additional line level inputs as well, in which case you have a preamp with a phono stage built in - a Klimax Linto Kontrol or KLK for short. I will take full credit for the name in the unlikely case Linn ends up using it. :)
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Post by Charlie1 »

So I basically need a Klimax Linto on normal Kontrol (KLONK)? :roll: sorry Thomas - I couldn't resist having a go too...
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Post by ThomasOK »

Klimax Kontrolinto?

Klimax Kontrinto?

Klimax Lintrol? (sounds like motor oil!)

How about we shorten it into Kliminto? :)
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Post by Charlie1 »

I'd buy a Kliminto any day, or even a Klinto - 'Make my tune ...Punk!'

I don't think either of us should give up the day job just yet :)
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Post by Lego »

A source with a pre amp? hmmmm you could add a power amp and call it a classik........eat your heart out Godel Esher and Bach!
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote:I have to disagree with you here, Lego. The functions that a preamp performs can easily be incorporated into a source component. In fact, there are clear advantages with this approach.

One is that the switching between different sources can be omitted. When only the volume control remains, you can achieve even higher fidelity.

A second is that there is one less interconnect (and associated output stages and/or input stages) to degrade the sound.
Hmmm...I see some challanges doing this with a LP12 :mrgreen:

Furthermore, it's going to be expensive for those having many sources if a pre (especially a KK) is inbuilt in each... and it also remove the VERY nice upgrading step by step approach. I.e using a Klimax DS with a Kairn, then using Exotik then Kinus to finally a KK.

And maybee the final and most relevant reason Linn probably never going to include a KK in a source - More boxes to sell increase revenue!!! :wink:

But I agree on the concept!
The Classik serie is a HIT.
For ultimate performance, not sure I like the idea having a Solo colocated with a DS/KK, both inside a speaker.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

Well, the discussion was about single source systems. A DS that handles many formats, including web radio, could be ideal for the addition of a high quality volume control.

Linn could also offer volume control as an option. DS fixed or DS+volume. Klimax Linto fixed or Klimax Linto+volume. Don't think for a moment that Linn won't charge appropriately for it. If the performance is similar to what you get with a KK, I'm sure they could charge at least half of what that costs.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Took all your advice and finally sourced a Linto (in the right colour.)

:cry: :( :? :| :) :lol: :D :shock:

Won't say too much now, but I think it's fantastic! It's really infectious and the bass so tuneful. It has real gusto and is just more fun than the phono in the Majik Kontrol. Also has some of that cleanness I found abundant in the Akiva that makes the previous kit sound distorted by comparison.

Got to go!
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Post by Charlie1 »

Having eBay'd just about anything that stays still long enough to be photographed, funding the Linto was completely worth it. And I know the Linto is old hat now (what is it - 10 years old now?), but I can't help writing about what a big difference it's made to my system. I suppose a fully loaded LP12SE hanging off a Majik Kontrol phono stage wasn't really the way to go, but I always presumed it wouldn't make much difference - after all, it's only a little thing sitting inside the pre-amp. Well, I was very wrong.

The Linto has really improved just about everything. It's more tuneful and I notice this particularly in the bass, but piano too. Unlike the Akiva and Ekos SE, it's the Hi-Fi improvements that have struck me the most, especially the bass, tightening it up quite a lot and seeming to go deeper too which has given more drive and power to the music. So much so, that I decided the speakers needed to be re-positioned, which was very worthwhile, although not my idea of fun (3 hours from start to finish!)

The other big Hi-Fi improvement is that it sounds so clean, CD-like, as if a layer of distortion has been removed. Very similar to the Akiva in this respect. And speaking of CD, my LP12 now has a noise floor as equally low - it's super quiet.

Finally, my Ninka speakers just keep improving with each upgrade to the source. I've always pointed the finger at them for being too warm, polite and lacking 'bite', but the Akiva, Keel, Tune Deming their position, and now Linto have all improved the balance and reduced these shortcomings considerably. I was very struck by the sparkling top-end of the Akurate 242's first time I heard them at my dealer, and whilst the Ninka's don't have the full bandwidth of the 3k array, the Linto has really opened up the top end and narrowed the gap significantly. Perhaps, they'll stay for a good few years after all. A solid example of 'Source First' improving the speakers I think.

All I can say is if you've got a Lingo'd LP12, then it's well worth getting a Linto. The better the LP12, the more the flood gates will be opened.

Finally, many thanks for the very sound advice from ML, Azazello and ThomasOK 8) .
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Post by lejonklou »

Glad to hear you are so pleased, Charlie. Indeed the Linto is a really good MC preamp and I suspect one reason Linn haven't yet replaced it is that it's difficult to make something that is a big step up from it. Something a Klimax Linto really needs to be!

Since I started working on MC stages myself I have become even more impressed with it. I had a rather nice sounding proto that was too noisy to be acceptable and in comparison with the Linto it struck me how quiet the Linto sounds to the ear. I'd say the noise floor appears lower than the specifications would suggest. All in all, I get the feeling there were many many details that were perfected by trial and error listening sessions on the Linto. It would be fun talking to the guys who developed it.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Having taken a million and one photo's of my daughter, I thought I'd follow Thomas' lead and add some pic's of the Hi-Fi: -

Couldn't help but include one with her as well :) sleeping through 'The Colour of Spring' which I hadn't played in years and thoroughly enjoyed. I think it's important to begin her musical education at an early age!

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The bed can be folded up, but I don't really bother any more. Last time I tune dem'd the speakers, I did so with the bed down as that's how I spend most of my time listening.
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