linn: small question, big question

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J
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linn: small question, big question

Post by J »

Hi There,

Hope you guys and girls can help me.

My system is a Linn DSI (dynamik), linn silvers, linn 6100 (non-dynamik), tri-amping with non Linn LS cables and Linn Kaber 's (14xxx)

My small question is what the best upgrade tweeter would be for the kabers?
The actual tweeters are the spkr 15/3. I'm thinking of the Ninka tweeter spkr 38/2 (150euro's )as a replacement? But perhaps there's a better option? It would be nice to hear from comparisons with the spkr 38/2.

My next upgrades would be a dynamik ps (650euro's) for the 6100 and perhaps/perhaps aktiv chakra cards? (900 euro's)
But is this the best way to spend my money?
I could sell items and spend the money in a total different way?

Although I have to say that I like the kabers and they fit my room well.The stand about 20 centimeters from the back wall.

Is tri-amping in passiv mode the best choice? Or is a single wire better.
(I could test this off course, but I'm missing the plates, might buy some some jumper cables).

It started with a small question, which tweeter to upgrade with,
but in the long run....I have a whole lot off questions.

Curious about the advice you can give me?

Thanks
best regards
J.
Linn DSI | Linn Silvers | majik 6100 (non -dynamik)| Linn Kabers (passiv)
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Post by lejonklou »

Hi J and welcome here!

I don't think there are many Kaber owners who have tried anything but Linn treble units. Other units are likely to require modifications.

In my opinion, there is no point in multi-amping passive speakers. Using just one of the amps is always musically superior. I also think that in most cases, single wiring is better than multi wiring.

Aktiv operation is better than passive, so certainly that would make sense with your 6100 and Kaber. Other options would include a change of speaker. Personally, I loved Kabers way back, but today I think there are much better alternatives.
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Post by J »

Hi Fredrik,

Thanks for your welcome.


The tweeter is only a small 'thing' in regards to perhaps change the speakers or more components.

There are some many speakers out there that I would not know where te begin.

And said that, I like the sound of the kabers. The can be placed near the wall an look rather elegant I think. I also like floorstanders

The kustones off course are bit dated.

So given my budget and 'speaker criteria' what would you recommend.

Is there something out there that beats the kabers, even in active mode? And that can be purchased within my budget off 800 to 1700 euro's.

Spending 1700 euro's on speakers alone would also mean that the 6100 would not get the dynamik upgrade.


Or is selling the kabers and the 6100 and using the amp from the DSI with a new set off speakers an option. It would give me a large budget for a set of new speakers but would it overall give me a better system?

J.
Linn DSI | Linn Silvers | majik 6100 (non -dynamik)| Linn Kabers (passiv)
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Post by lejonklou »

Loudspeakers is the most personal choice in HiFi, so you definitely need to listen yourself to the alternatives.

I haven't directly compared 109 with Kaber, but I think passive 109's are better than aktiv Ninkas. And I don't think aktiv Kabers are that much better than aktiv Ninkas. So by deduction, my guess is that passive 109 are better than aktiv Kabers. Not as good looking, perhaps not going as deep, but better. With a 6100, 109 can be made aktiv just like Kaber. I would personally choose either that combination or a Tundra with passive 109's.

I know we have at least one forum member who has switched from aktiv Kaber with 6100 to aktiv 109 with 6100. I think he's very pleased with the change. But hopefully he sees this and answers himself.
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Post by J »

and what is your opnion on the majik 140's?
Are they even better then the 109's or not?.
I heard them once wit just a DSI standing in a big room.

In my opinion they sounded quit good, but needed more control ( better amplification, aktiv) then the DSI could give them

I like the very controlled an detaild sound of my kabers , so that's my reference.

In my home they would have to be placed close to the wall ( about 20 centimeters)
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Post by lejonklou »

Sorry for the late reply, J. I thought maybe someone else would chime in with some ideas if I kept a low profile.

As I mentioned, loudspeakers are personal. In my opinion, you have to listen to them before purchase. In contrast, a DS player can practically be bought without listening! The more expensive ones are simply better in all aspects.

If you like the controlled and detailed sound of Kaber, I suspect that you will prefer 109 over 140. Distance to rear wall varies a lot between rooms, so it's impossible to say where they will end up. But I don't think I've had 109's ending up at more than 23-24 cm after optimising their position with the Tune Method. In my living room, they were at 14 cm. Now I have a pair of 212's on 109 stands, but in a few weeks, I am told that my black ash Klångedang T1's will arrive.
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Post by fieldmice »

lejonklou wrote:
I haven't directly compared 109 with Kaber, but I think passive 109's are better than aktiv Ninkas. And I don't think aktiv Kabers are that much better than aktiv Ninkas. So by deduction, my guess is that passive 109 are better than aktiv Kabers. Not as good looking, perhaps not going as deep, but better. With a 6100, 109 can be made aktiv just like Kaber. I would personally choose either that combination or a Tundra with passive 109's.

.
Sorry for jumping in this thread, but something is really attracting me is about the "passive 109 better than active Ninka". I knew the comparison of two different level of speaker is meaningless. But I would like to ask for some idea is:

My current set-up is RDS-->Kairn-->LK140 x3 Active --> Ninka
So, replacing a better amp (such as A2200/D or Tundra) for LK140x3 and running them in passive is a good way of upgrade?

Thank you
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Post by rowlandhills »

I moved from aktiv kabers to passive 109s on a temporary basis. Both were running through dynamiked 4200/2200s.

I felt very happy with the musical improvement. There's no doubt that the 109s are a much more musical speaker, and that the 2k array is very good for that.

However, I couldn't live with the complete lack of lower bass detail. I added a subwoofer on a temporary basis...and then replaced the 109s and the sub with a pair of 242s! :-)

I think that Majik 140s might be a very good replacement/upgrade for Kabers, with both the musicality and detail of the 109s and more of the bass which the kaber can produce.
KRDSM, Tundra to 242s
Silvers, K400, Hutter rack
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Post by Nature »

fieldmice wrote:So, replacing a better amp (such as A2200/D or Tundra) for LK140x3 and running them in passive is a good way of upgrade?
No. Bad idea, if you are asking me.
You will probably need to change speaker to any newer series (with 2K/3K Array) if you want a passive system to outperform any Aktiv system with old speakers.
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Post by mrco99 »

fieldmice wrote: Sorry for jumping in this thread, but something is really attracting me is about the "passive 109 better than active Ninka". I knew the comparison of two different level of speaker is meaningless. But I would like to ask for some idea is:

My current set-up is RDS-->Kairn-->LK140 x3 Active --> Ninka
So, replacing a better amp (such as A2200/D or Tundra) for LK140x3 and running them in passive is a good way of upgrade?

Thank you
fieldmice..
Hi fieldmice,

A bit offtopic indeed but a short answer to your question: No.

It´s a sideways move, not necessarily better.
Question is what specifically are you not happy about in your current system that you would like to solve?

Don´t get too obsessed with upgrading when something sounds good.
Given your system I would sooner think of replacing the Kairn, as it really masks a lot of detail from the KRDS.
Have you tried removing the Kairn and using the digital volume control instead?
Just to give you an idea...

Cheers,

Marco
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Post by lejonklou »

Nature wrote:You will probably need to change speaker to any newer series (with 2K/3K Array) if you want a passive system to outperform any Aktiv system with old speakers.
I agree with you, Nature. I often get questions about whether it makes sense going from aktiv with lesser power amps to passive with a better power amp.

My experience is that this is usually a "sidegrade". It will be better in some aspects (due to the better power amp) and worse in other aspects (due to the loss of aktiv operation). To make it an upgrade, one often needs to upgrade the speakers as well. Newer generation speakers can often be better in passive mode than the old ones were in aktiv.
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Post by fieldmice »

mrco99 wrote:
Hi fieldmice,

A bit offtopic indeed but a short answer to your question: No.

It´s a sideways move, not necessarily better.
Question is what specifically are you not happy about in your current system that you would like to solve?

Don´t get too obsessed with upgrading when something sounds good.
Given your system I would sooner think of replacing the Kairn, as it really masks a lot of detail from the KRDS.
Have you tried removing the Kairn and using the digital volume control instead?
Just to give you an idea...

Cheers,

Marco
Thank you Marco & Nature about your idea, seems it is clear to have the answer --> No. :-)

Actually, I need a pre-amp because of two sources have to be feeding in, one is RDS, second is my Ikemi (yes.. it is very old stuff..)

My feeling of my system is not having a very good sound stage (maybe I can say not very 3D), and also when playing some "complicated" song, which cannot presented in a very detail...

Anyway, I don't want to out-topic too much.. I have to stopped here :-)

Thank you all and have a nice day. :-)
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Post by Music Lover »

mrco99 wrote: Given your system I would sooner think of replacing the Kairn
+1, start upgrading the pre! Low cost = Kikkin. Best option = KK

Until you have a KK, don't change the amps/speakers. Then get A2200 or Tundra with M140

Using the digital volume control in RDS is not advisable.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by J »

Reclaiming my topic:)

Which configuration would sound best at moderate volumes (>45)

DSI/D, 6100/D, Kabers
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, aktiv Kabers
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, majik 140
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, aktiv majik 140


And if the it's always the aktiv configurations would it also be as noticeable as with higher volumes.

thanks Stil
Linn DSI | Linn Silvers | majik 6100 (non -dynamik)| Linn Kabers (passiv)
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Post by anthony »

J wrote:Reclaiming my topic:)

Which configuration would sound best at moderate volumes (>45)

DSI/D, 6100/D, Kabers
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, aktiv Kabers
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, majik 140
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, aktiv majik 140


And if the it's always the aktiv configurations would it also be as noticeable as with higher volumes.

The last option.

thanks Stil
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Post by mrco99 »

Hi Stil,

I think you are struggling with multiple problems, where you should adress them on by one and put those with top priority first.
Otherwise you are likely to be running in circles where to start and what to expect.

You like the Kabers' sound signature, format and placement in the room.
You have some money to spend on upgrades and ask yourself how to allocate that best.

Like Fredrik has pointed out, Kabers were very fine speakers in their day, but a lot has happened since then. On the 2nd hand market they don't raise much more than 450-750 euros today.

First ask yourself if and for how long you would like to keep the Kabers.
Making them active (with the 6100 you do have an ideal amp for that) will improve their performance, but it will also tie you down to that system. I would only do so if I intended to keep them for years to come.

It is a pity Fredrik still does not sell his amps in the Netherlands (hint hint) as then you could try a Tundra power amp.
I think before investing into going active, I would first try how a Tundra or 2200/d would work with your Kabers. Maybe even just sell the 6100 and getting a better power amp for passive speakers.

Or try an active Linn speaker like M140 as you have the perfect combo for that with 6100 and MDSi. As long as you haven't decided about active vs passive I would be careful with spending your money on dynamiking the 6100. The money could be better spent in a better passive power amp, or improving your source/pre.

I don't know if you have other sources than the DS, as otherwise you could also go for a ADS/0, Kikkin, 2200 or Tundra and Kabers, and selling the MDSi, 6100 to help financing that.

These are just some thoughts, you have to decide and foremost listen to various setups yourself, off course.

Cheers,

Marco
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Post by J »

Hoi Marco,

Je bent hier ook:)

You're here as well.

I already ordered the dynamik upgrade.

I'm in no rush.

I have the same 'doubts' as you mentioned.
I like the kabers, but is going for something more modern not a better aproach?

My thinking right now is that I will not futher invest in the kabers or it should be a small one ( tweeters) and wil look for a majik 140 of perhaps a 242 in a few years?
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Post by Linnofil »

J wrote:Which configuration would sound best at moderate volumes (>45)

DSI/D, 6100/D, Kabers
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, aktiv Kabers
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, majik 140
or
DSI/D, 6100/D, aktiv majik 140
The correct answer is DSI/D, 6100/D aktiv Majik109!

I like M109 more than M140 and not having to use the poweramp in your DSI will improve it a lot. The M109 is better than Kabers and as you say it is a bit foolish to invest in activating them, better to go with a more modern speaker.

With a Dynamik in the 6100 and perhaps filters for M109 you can stop investing in the playback chain and save up for a Akurate DS/1 with a preamp (like a Kikkin or an old/new Akurate Kontrol) or you could go for a Akurate DSM depending on your other sources.
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Re:

Post by Zee9 »

I know it’s been a while but I’m curious what path you went down finally?
J wrote: 2013-03-07 21:55 Hoi Marco,

Je bent hier ook:)

You're here as well.

I already ordered the dynamik upgrade.

I'm in no rush.

I have the same 'doubts' as you mentioned.
I like the kabers, but is going for something more modern not a better aproach?

My thinking right now is that I will not futher invest in the kabers or it should be a small one ( tweeters) and wil look for a majik 140 of perhaps a 242 in a few years?
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Re: linn: small question, big question

Post by mrco99 »

Don't wish to dissapoint but don't expect an answer as the last time that OP 'J' posted on this forum was his above post from 2013. I don't know what path he pursued either so it probably remains unknown.

It must have taken you some time to dig this one up!
:-)
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