ThomasOK's System

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Matteo
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by Matteo »

I also like the track, but I don't know what it is.

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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by nmakowsk »

The track chosen here has an almost neo King Crimson feel to it. Gee, that is very surprising isn't it :>) Nice clips and I don't hear a huge difference between the two but clip 2 might be a little more together. In clip 1 you can see what looks like an unplugged XLR under the table so this leads me to believe Tom is testing in the motor or phono stage realms here. Maybe a secret Lejonklou dual mono MC stage that is not yet finalized but in time we will know and of course our systems will benefit in some way...
Last time I heard this system the JBL speakers were still on stock shoe box stands and those ATCs powered by tundras were quite good in comparison. The improvements from the stands and the sub must be quite dramatic then throw Tarandus upgrades on top of that. When your system sounds like this you can transport yourself to a place where the musicality is very fulfilling. Longing for record after record days into a long night of listening.. I bet you soon find yourself not caring about all the expensive gold colored boxes and industry marketing towards something only a professional athlete could afford. Isn't it interesting that ultra high end car companies always sellout their run on 50 production million dollar plus cars. BTW, I received a Porcupine Tree Deadwing clear vinyl reissue in the mail the other day from burning shed. At some point I am going to need the official word if I have purchased the correct one :) cheers
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by nmakowsk »

OK I re-listened to these files. Great test demo cut. I found the piano notes a bit easier to hear on clip 2 as well as the weight change of the cymbal hits from the drumstick. With the piano I got more of a sense of finger nuances on the piano rather than just piano sound. So for me file 2 is better but both sound quite good...look forward to more info to come.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

Matteo wrote:I also like the track, but I don't know what it is.

M.
Sorry about that. I thought I had already posted that information. It turns out I had typed it up but before I proofread and posted it I was called away from my desk and it never got posted. Here it is:

That is a track from "The New Standard" by Jamie Saft, Steve Swallow and Bobby Previte which I have mentioned here before. It is an all analog recording and mastering from Rare Noise Records. You can find it at the bottom of this page but the LP is currently out of stock.

https://www.rarenoiserecords.com/saft-swallow-previte

It looks like they might be doing another pressing but I'm not sure. Of course, you might be able to find it on discogs. I have not bought their new record yet but I will investigate it soon.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

OK, time to spill the beans. First off I agree with the unanimous opinion that track 2 is more musical and easier to follow all three instruments, but that track one is also good. This is a comparison I was doing somewhat for fun but also just because it was so interesting. Track one was somewhat a play on the Michael Fremer idea of using a transformer into a superb Lejonklou MM phono stage, except that I used a Slipsik 5.1 here instead of a Gaio. The Kandid was fed to it through an Ortofon Type 2-15K transformer as seen here:

Image

Yes, it is indeed that tiny transformer with cheap flying leads and very cheap RCAs. Except the one I have looks worse as I had to resoldeer the RCA sockets a couple of times due to lack of strain relief. It is a 2 Ohm to 15K Ohm transformer designed for one of the Ortofon SPU cartridges and was also offered fitted inside the SPU headshell on some versions. I would thus expect that the loading is nowhere near right for the Kandid.

Why do I have such a thing? It was brought in by a customer with an old table when he came in to have me fix it up and decided he didn't want to pay the money for a decent low output moving coil. So he didn't need it any more and gave it to me. I generally keep it around the store as I have a MM phono stage on the test bench where I set up turntables so this allows me to plug in a LOMC and have decent output level.

Why was I using it at home? That's even more interesting. Just the weekend before Christmas I was about to sit down in the evening and play a few records, a couple of which were new. I hadn't listened to the LP12 for a little while and was really looking forward to it. So I put on my first record only to find I had no Left channel! So I am wondering what is going on and start checking things. Well, my streamer works so it is the turntable. Fretting that it is the Kandid, which is expensive and has a short warranty, I start trouble-shooting and eventually find out it is the Urika! I had never seen a Urika with a problem before and mine has to go bad just before the holidays! That means it is unlikely to get fixed quickly and I don't have a spare. My second turntable is also down as I sold my Lingo 2 with the idea of possibly getting a Radikal though I'm now thinking a Lingo 4 to save a pile of money. So I removed the Urika, sent it back to Linn, and fitted a T.Kable. I then used the Type2-15K/Slipsik 5.1 combo until this last Tuesday when I finally got around to putting it back in. But not until I made these before and after clips. So the second clip is the repaired Urika (which they found had a bad cap pulling down the power supply.

So the short version: Clip 1 - Type2-15K/Slipsik 5.1, Clip 2 - Urika. Not a surprise they are both good, but certainly a surprise to me how good the Type2-15K/Slipsik 5.1 combo was.

Kudos to nmakowsk for noticing the cable difference, I was surprised nobody else picked up on it. In fact there are three cables hanging - the XLR to the Urika and the two RCA cables. I sent just the Urika itself to Linn and kept the Trampolin and wiring part intact to use until the Urika came back, hence the hanging cables in Clip 1.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

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ThomasOK wrote:... My second turntable is also down as I sold my Lingo 2
I can sell it back to you and buy a 4 myself :)
ThomasOK wrote:Kudos to nmakowsk for noticing the cable difference, I was surprised nobody else picked up on it. In fact there are three cables hanging - the XLR to the Urika and the two RCA cables. I sent just the Urika itself to Linn and kept the Trampolin and wiring part intact to use until the Urika came back, hence the hanging cables in Clip 1.
Ahem. I was obviously being too subtle but that was my play on 'connected' in clip 1 ;) I didn't want to draw too much attention to the difference - though I did not know the details - so as not to further skew opinion for clip 2. Surprising how well #1 did given the setup... or how poorly the Urika did, relatively speaking, in comparison against the transformer & Slipsik :D
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

You’re right, I didn’t really catch the “connected” comment. Nor, it seems, did others. I agree with your other comments. But I don’t think I need the Lingo 2 back, thanks for the offer. :-)
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote:So the short version: Clip 1 - Type2-15K/Slipsik 5.1, Clip 2 - Urika. Not a surprise they are both good, but certainly a surprise to me how good the Type2-15K/Slipsik 5.1 combo was.
Now this was a surprise!

What would the result be with a better transformer and Slipsik 6?

This reminds me that a bunch of years ago, I spoke to Lundahl Transformers about their MC step up transformers. This was when Linn surprised many of us by using a Lundahl on the output of the Klimax DS and I decided to test some of their line level transformer models. I found none that was fully convincing in my applications, the main effect was that it made the sound smoother but also had a slight musical penalty.

Anyway the friendly guys at Lundahl told me that an MC step up was way better than an active input stage in their opinion, but it does need to be properly matched to the cartridge. This becomes a challenge if you want to make an MC stage that can work with more than one MC cartridge model.

I have so far not tested the Lundahl MC step ups in combination with a Slipsik. Instead I have for months been fine tuning an extremely sensitive and expensive active input stage. Hearing your clips now, Thomas, I wonder whether the step up way could make sense as a more economical option. The Lundahl's are not cheap, but certainly much less expensive than my active solution.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

I thought you might be surprised by this, as indeed I was. Had I known how close it would be I would have opened up a Slipsik 6 to see how that fared. Obviously it would have been closer yet.

There have long been those who claim a transformer is the best way of matching a moving coil to a standard phono stage. I believe it is claimed that MCs have enough current but need a voltage step up making a transformer a good solution. Of course, you then have the problem of proper matching for different cartridges. Do you have a multi-tapped transformer which puts more contacts where you least want them? Do you have swappable transformers? That would seem expensive and complicated plus still the contact problem. If you use a separate transformer and phono stage then there are more cables and connections at relatively low levels. I can see how this all poses quite a conundrum for designers.

Interestingly, it turns out the transformer I used might have been serendipitous. Although the cables and connectors probably didn’t help anything (then again you never know-we all know you can’t go by looks) the transformer itself likely did. It was designed to match the 2 Ohm internal resistance to the 15k Ohm loading the RIAA recommended at the time. Now the standard input impedance for a MM phono stage is 47k Ohms which would make this transformer ideal for a cartridge with an internal resistance of pretty much 6 Ohms. The internal resistance of the Kandid? 5.5 Ohms. Hmmm!
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Re: ThomasOK's System

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ThomasOK wrote: There have long been those who claim a transformer is the best way of matching a moving coil to a standard phono stage. I believe it is claimed that MCs have enough current but need a voltage step up making a transformer a good solution. Of course, you then have the problem of proper matching for different cartridges. Do you have a multi-tapped transformer which puts more contacts where you least want them? Do you have swappable transformers? That would seem expensive and complicated plus still the contact problem. If you use a separate transformer and phono stage then there are more cables and connections at relatively low levels. I can see how this all poses quite a conundrum for designers.
You are right, but does Fredrik have plans to provide different gain settings for the MC stage?
Am I right that the Slipsik is optimised for Adikt and the MC phono certainly for Linn MCs?

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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote:You are right, but does Fredrik have plans to provide different gain settings for the MC stage?
Am I right that the Slipsik is optimised for Adikt and the MC phono certainly for Linn MCs?
The extreme MC stage I'm working on has a fixed gain, and a very high one. If I decrease the gain, it looses some of its magic. I haven't figured out a way around this and as all I'm aiming for is the magic, it may stay fixed and only suitable for MC's with an output of up to 0.4 mV (at which there's no risk of overload).

The loading will however be adjustable, but only by a certified dealer, who can solder with optimal solder wire and using equipment that has been calibrated to within one degree Celcius or Fahrenheit. It really makes a big difference at the input.

Slipsik has been tuned with a Linn Adikt cartridge, but when I've tested some other MM cartridges, they have not benefited from any alteration of the load. This is due to the phenomena that not only the resistive and capacitive load matters, but also the quality of the components. And in the case of Slipsik, the specific values of the components used on the input do sound better than alternative values of the same brand and model of components. So there's some kind of sweet spot there that just seems ideal musically.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: The extreme MC stage I'm working on has a fixed gain, and a very high one. If I decrease the gain, it looses some of its magic. I haven't figured out a way around this and as all I'm aiming for is the magic, it may stay fixed and only suitable for MC's with an output of up to 0.4 mV (at which there's no risk of overload).
Fredrik,
thank you for clarification.

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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by Matteo »

ThomasOK wrote: Sorry about that. I thought I had already posted that information. It turns out I had typed it up but before I proofread and posted it I was called away from my desk and it never got posted. Here it is:

That is a track from "The New Standard" by Jamie Saft, Steve Swallow and Bobby Previte which I have mentioned here before. It is an all analog recording and mastering from Rare Noise Records. You can find it at the bottom of this page but the LP is currently out of stock.

https://www.rarenoiserecords.com/saft-swallow-previte

It looks like they might be doing another pressing but I'm not sure. Of course, you might be able to find it on discogs. I have not bought their new record yet but I will investigate it soon.
Thanks

Unfortunately, the record is not available on both Amazon and Discogs:

https://www.discogs.com/Jamie-Saft-Stev ... se/6594213

However, I found it on Spotify: terrific album!

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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

Those of you who took my advice and watched this space are probably tired of waiting for the promised updates. Although I did indeed post a couple of clips which did pretty much show the system, I didn't explain the setup, which I thought was interesting. I figured I was going to have a heck of a time optimizing the positions of everything given all the equipment and racks you see there. In the end, however, I was able to get the vast majority of things in the most musical positions. The clips are still there for the time being so you can look and listen to it again if you wish.

When I returned home from RMAF last year (which it appears we won't be doing this year) I was determined to get a better subwoofer placement at home. Fredrik and I tune method setup the sub at the show and the differences from a 2mm movement of the sub closer to either wall were quite audible. I knew I wasn't near the right position at home so the first thing I did was to setup the sub by itself and found where it really sang. It is placed against the sidewall firing across the front of the plane of the speakers as this is the only place it would fit. But by getting the proper distances it became very tuneful. The distances I ended up with are 95mm to the wall behind the sub and 145mm from the side wall. It is, of course, on a Linnofil stand at a height of 96mm. I had to slide my Expedit 5x5 record cabinet down about a foot, no mean feat since I didn't remove the records!, but the use of a car scissor jack helped (my hydraulic jack didn't want to work sideways!). Since I was moving it anyway I made enough room to tuck my LS-NAS/Yggrdasil rack in between the sub and the records.

Then it was time to find the best place for the other racks. As can be seen in the RMAF pictures we had the LP12/NOKTable centered in front of the two Harmoni racks. It looked good and sounded good there too but was not the absolute optimal position (as is generally impossible for most things at a show). I wondered if the LP12/NOKTable would sound the best out in front, but such was not the case. Although there were a few distances that were pretty good, the most tuneful was actually tucked back next to the left speaker, as you can see in the video clip, and 94mm from the back wall to the back of the LP12 plinth. I had previously found that there was an optimum distance from the wall to the Harmoni racks both at my house and the house of a customer so I wasn't surprised that the LP12/NOKTable would also have an optimum position. On to the Harmoni racks and now the big problem - I was obviously going to have to put one in front of the other which would give one channel a musical advantage. I hooked up the Sagatun 1.3 and Tundra 2.2 stereo units so I could use a single rack and experiment with varying distances from the back wall. Once again I found several good positions but not as good as the 200mm I had previously used and was about to give up when I got out to 670mm and found it to also be really good. I went back and forth between 200mm and 670mm and actually couldn't find a musical difference! This was quite a surprise and extremely convenient. Since the racks are 400mm deep I could put the back rack 200mm from the back wall (which also leaves enough room for the power strip to sit back there) and put the front rack 70mm in front of the back one and have them both optimally placed musically and about as close as you would want to have them.

From left to right the subwoofer (facing sideways) left 3677, two Harmoni racks front to back, LP12/NOKTable and right 3677 just fit in the space allowed. The JBLs placed at the optimum 114mm from the back wall I had found before. There was the third rack, a half rack with double Oden bottom and single top, housing the third TM2.2 and the Marchand XM44 crossover. It was placed in front of the left speaker at 670mm from the back wall, so also a somewhat optimum position (although I don't suppose being right in front of the left JBL is quite ideal for either the electronics or the speaker - but at least it is below the level of the driver). In the end the only dimension I wasn't quite able to optimize is the distance between the two 3677s, which I had found to be 1166mm previously in my house (a little shorter than Fredrik's 1172mm). The length of that wall and the placement of the sub doesn't allow that much space in between without the right 3677 protruding into the hallway, instead it is about 1115mm. I feel that this is probably the best place to compromise. As you heard from the clips, the system can sound quite good and I am very happy with how well the sub integrates with the mains. I also finally got around to optimizing ALL the torques for the XM44 (Fredrik and I had only gotten to about half of them at the show). But I sold four of them to customers, two to Sweden, and I wasn't going to let them out until I had found and adjusted all the torques. So I then applied the additional ones to my crossover and noticed a small additional improvement in bass quality and matching. The electronics and main source are the best I have heard and the JBL trio are doing a bang up job. The whole system seems to work very well in the room and it is quite a system! Now for my next upgrades! ;-)
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Re: ThomasOK's System

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ThomasOK wrote:...
On to the Harmoni racks .. and experiment with varying distances from the back wall... I went back and forth between 200mm and 670mm and actually couldn't find a musical difference! This was quite a surprise and extremely convenient. Since the racks are 400mm deep I could put the back rack 200mm from the back wall (which also leaves enough room for the power strip to sit back there) and put the front rack 70mm in front of the back one and have them both optimally placed musically and about as close as you would want to have them.
I know the electronics tend to sound best when positioned centrally on the Harmoni rack. Do you think the optimal distance is somehow linked to the distance between the wall and the back of the rack, or is it really the distance between the wall and the electronics? Curious whether a smaller Harmoni such as the Yggdrasil, for instance, would sound better with the rack farther from the wall to maintain an optimal distance between wall and electronics...
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Re: ThomasOK's System

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tokenbrit wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:...
On to the Harmoni racks .. and experiment with varying distances from the back wall... I went back and forth between 200mm and 670mm and actually couldn't find a musical difference! This was quite a surprise and extremely convenient. Since the racks are 400mm deep I could put the back rack 200mm from the back wall (which also leaves enough room for the power strip to sit back there) and put the front rack 70mm in front of the back one and have them both optimally placed musically and about as close as you would want to have them.
I know the electronics tend to sound best when positioned centrally on the Harmoni rack. Do you think the optimal distance is somehow linked to the distance between the wall and the back of the rack, or is it really the distance between the wall and the electronics? Curious whether a smaller Harmoni such as the Yggdrasil, for instance, would sound better with the rack farther from the wall to maintain an optimal distance between wall and electronics...
I believe it is probably the distance between the racks and the wall, but the only way to know with a different rack is to try it. Although I haven't played with the newer Yggdrasil myself I have heard it said that it is not as musical as the standard size Harmoni rack.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote:I believe it is probably the distance between the racks and the wall, but the only way to know with a different rack is to try it. Although I haven't played with the newer Yggdrasil myself I have heard it said that it is not as musical as the standard size Harmoni rack.
I haven't compared the compact Harmoni racks with the full size ones and really wonder which one is the best.

If someone has done this comparison, please let us know!
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by bonzo »

Also +1 for 2nd clip. Not only was it simply more enjoyable, I heard what I think (tough to tell listening on iPhone) “ghost notes” (I think that’s what they are called). Drum notes used in between notes, very lightly played, for the drummer to maintain timing/tempo. John Bonham was known to do this on Fool in the Rain which is a must know for those playing drums. Thank you for sharing Thomas. Always a pleasure
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by Charlie1 »

How are you getting on the with ESLs? - assuming you still have them.

I've read some folks say they tend to steer listening to material that suits them and others say that's just not so.

Will they replace the JBLs do you think, or too early to tell?
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

Hi Charlie1! Yes I still have them and am still quite enjoying them. As a matter of fact I just added a clip to the playground played by my HAKAI through them last night. The song is "All Souls Night" by Loreena McKennitt and is not only quite beautiful but quite timely for today. This was originally going to be a short answer to a couple of short questions, but as you can see it didn't end up that way. :-)

In my experience they give you the best of whatever you play on them, as a truly good speaker should do. I don't find them to at all steer music to things that "suit" them and I feel the whole idea is based on some fallacies.

Fallacy 1: ESLs don't have bass. They do actually have quite good bass but only down to about 45Hz, roughly the same as the JBLs, interestingly enough. They don't do the deepest bass, but neither do the vast majority of speakers on the market. But the bass they have has a level of musicality I haven't heard elsewhere, letting you hear the quality of playing and the tone of the instrument more beautifully than on other speakers. What it doesn't have in the bass is any overhang from drivers that can't stop immediately nor any cabinet resonances - due to no cabinet. So there is no bass when there shouldn't be but beautiful bass when there should be.

Fallacy 2: They have no highs. Actually they are basically good out to 20kHz, but only if you sit directly in the narrow beam of the high frequency drivers. In other positions the extreme highs drop off a bit but they sound so good anywhere in the room, or even in the other room, that you don't care. But if you want full extension consider them to be really big headphones!

Fallacy 3: They won't play loud. Stated by some as they aren't good for rock or aren't good for large scale classical. As many here know, and Fredrik can certainly attest to from shows, I don't exactly have a light touch on the volume control normally. Now, admittedly, I don't play as loud as I used to before I had Sagatun and Tundra Monos in the system, I believe because they allow me to get more impact from the music at lower levels. But I still like to crank it up a bit from time to time. A few weeks ago I put on one of the King Crimson pieces I like to play loud, Starless from the Red album, and cranked it way up. I found that it was louder than I wanted to hear it and dropped it down a couple notches. I also recently played Moun Badinina off the self-titled Mino Cinelu album quite loud. Now admittedly I was able to get a cracking sound out of the Quads when I played it louder than I would normally listen to it. Before anybody freaks out about me mistreating the Quads let me assure you that no damage was done, indeed I played it in a dark room so I could see if a panel arced and there were no sparks. (I'll go over why I was crazy enough to try this a little later.) That particular track has some of the deepest and most powerful bass of any album I have heard and as such is also a bit of a speaker killer. How so? Well when I had Aktiv Isobariks with 4 LK280/SPARKS (one amp per each woofer), with the Bingo upgrade in my Aktiv crossover/DIRAK unit, this piece would actually bottom out the Isobarik woofers at high levels (and not even super high levels)! I never played another album that did this. One thing that made me happy when I got the ATCs was that I could play this track as loud as I wanted without the woofers bottoming out and with the same kind of bass extension I got from the Isobariks. It was only later on that I found out that the drivers didn't bottom out because the suspension was keeping the short voice coil former from hitting. Unfortunately in doing so the surrounds actually tore about a third of the way around the cone! Somehow the, not inexpensive, repair was not covered under warranty. (My JBL sub seems to have no problem with it whatsoever-the subsonic filter may help with that.)

According to what I have read online the Quads can put our a good 100dB in small to medium size rooms, so again more than enough for most people. Admittedly these are not the speakers to do your own DJ session in a large hall, for that the JBLs would certainly be a better option. Another indication of this not being a real limitation was when a friend of mine mentioned to me he had been told they weren't good for large orchestral pieces. So I looked up what were considered some of the biggest orchestral pieces and pulled Beethoven's 9th Symphony and Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring out and played them for him, with and without the subwoofer. He said they both easily played much louder than he would ever listen to them and that they also sounded easily better than he had ever heard them. He is now buying a pair of Quads too!

Fallacy 4: They are delicate. See above. However it should be mentioned that the ELS is not like other speakers. It is not a matter of amps clipping or voice coils overheating that cause it problems. It is strictly exceeding the voltage limit that they have. The Quads work on voltages in the thousands which is stepped up from the amplifier output. When the voltage exceeds a certain level it becomes enough to bridge the gap between the front and rear stators which sends a spark from one to the other, literally burning a small hole in the diaphragm. This is known as arcing for obvious reasons. An ESL that has been arced still plays but once arced it is more sensitive to it happening again (since the diaphragm is no longer helping to insulate the two panels at that point) and over time will lead to lower efficiency and poorer sound, possibly even damage to the electronic parts. The interesting thing is that the ESLs arc if you feed them over 33 volts, under that you have no problem. As it happens the maximum output of the Tundra Mono 2.2 is 26 volts peak to peak. Hence I literally can't blow up the Quads with the TMs! (As demonstrated by the torture test I just put them through.)

The last thing you hear about Quads is that they are very difficult to drive and have been known to eat amplifiers for breakfast. This is true. Some amplifiers that work fine otherwise become completely unstable when driving the ESL. I have read stories of them working fine with something like a NAIT (it is considered a really good combo buy some) but literally melting the insides of an older Rotel integrated and a big BGW amp (a high-power unit from the 70s that was claimed to be unconditionally stable - apparently there were conditions). They are a difficult load being in essence a big capacitor that puts out sound and with a very different impedance curve. Happily Fredrik assured me that the Tundras were completely stable and would have no problem and, having run them with both the stereo and Mono Tundras, I can confirm this. Since the Tundra Monos are also the most musical amplifiers I have ever heard you could say I'm sitting in the catbird seat.

Now that we have covered those bits of info I will say that the Quads are definitely staying. I continually find myself drawn into the music more than I have ever been before - what better sign is there that things are as they should be. I just find myself listening to the system more than I did before and even enjoying streaming more than in the past. This is the case even though they aren't close to being optimized yet: not on the best stands, ideal height and position in the room yet to be determined and optimal crossover to the sub (which I do find works really well with them but might need a half dB or so less gain for the best blend). The reason for this lack will become obvious shortly.

The JBLs will almost assuredly be going away but probably not until December. The reason for this is that the Quads, as wonderful as they sound, are not functioning at 100% and I will be attending to that. I found a person in the US who is supposed to be one of the best, if not the best, Quad restorer out there (attested to by another Linn/Naim dealer I know that is very fond of the ESL, among other people). I had talked to him about redoing the dust covers on my bass panels as one is very loose, another is a bit loose and the other two are originals that are over 40 years old. But the panel with the very loose cover has stopped working (yet they still sound very good), possibly because humidity has been able to get in (it has been an exceedingly rainy fall here). Since I decided I really want to keep these guys, I talked to him I decided to send him all six panels for a full rebuild. I will be doing any rebuilding of the power supply and crossover myself that I determine is necessary. While I'm at it I am also buying another pair that he has with all original panels and a rebuilt power supply. The reason for this is that, unlike my pair, these have the original boxes and packing, original feet and original power cables. They also have bronze grills in near new condition. I will be keeping the packaging and feet, and possibly the grills from this set, and will keep the rebuilt panels and electronics from the set I already have. My friend will be buying the other pair.

So the reason for the torture test on the panels is: why not see whether I can blow them up now before they go away for rebuild the middle of this month? And the reasons for the lack of optimization is that it makes little sense until I have them operating properly and also that I need to get the JBLs out of the room and the electronics completely reconfigured to be able to do the setup I feel they need. The JBLs have to stay for now as there will be a week or two between me tearing down this pair of Quads and my picking up the other pair. I can't afford to have my system down right now so I will be using the JBLs for the interim. It will be interesting to hear them again after having used the ESLs for a few months.

My plan is to take the finished pair, along with the JBL sub, to the next Hi-FI show Fredrik and I do here and probably for a couple of shows after that. Since Lejonklou HiFi and Nokturne Audio don't sell speakers the point is not to highlight the speakers but to use speakers that are musical and let you hear how good the rest of the system is. As such we will probably partner with various speaker companies over time, as I did with Dynaudio for my first show, showing that we can make great music from a variety of speakers.
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2018-11-02 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by Charlie1 »

I managed to absorb an entire G&T reading that so a nice way to relax and round off the week.

Glad you're enjoying them so much and thanks for answering my queries.

I like what you say about their bass sound and the fact you want to listen to music so much.

I too have read they go well with a Nait. I was quite reluctant to try them cos I really don't know what I'm buying and proper reconditioned ones, with warranty, are pretty expensive. However, I really liked what I heard in that Beatles clip you shared a few months ago (definitely my kind of speaker), so maybe one day.

Look forward to a photo or video with them all setup in their final position and makeup.
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

It is true that it is hard to know what you are getting. It is also true that many will need reconditioning at some time if they haven't been already, and you want to be careful with who reconditions them. After all the newest of these speakers are well over 30 years old and the oldest are over 60! The other dealer I talked about is owned by two partners, one of whom has recorded some six thousand albums, many for the Naim label. They have a pair they keep in the store (along with a pair of original Isobariks), and he has a personal pair in his house. He told me that they come closest to reproducing what he picks up with his microphones of any speakers he has heard. He also told me that Sheldon Stokes, the person who is going to rebuild my panels, is the best out there. I also read a comparison review one Quad aficionado wrote where he compared rebuilt treble panels to originals and he and his listening panel couldn't tell the difference between the originals and Sheldon's.

As to the pricing, that depends on your point of view. While I have seen some rebuilt pairs that are relatively expensive, I would still consider them pretty cheap compared to the competition available today. Plus some rebuilds are even more reasonable - Sheldon often sells pairs he has fully rebuilt for around $2500. For some reason it does seem that rebuilders across the pond tend to charge more than over here, but originals in good shape are more readily available where you are. If you really want to go whole hog, QUAD Musikwiedergabe bought the original tooling and builds brand new ESLs in the 57 design for about €7800 - you can even choose your color. Is there another speaker as musical as the Quad for €8000? Hard to say, but many Quad owners would say no. You pays your money and you takes your choice!
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by NinthWave »

ThomasOK wrote: 2007-08-22 18:42 [...]
Even though I live in the US all equipment is run at 230 Volts off a dedicated line as it sounds much beter that way
I forgot to ask you about that over the phone. I though about that myself a while ago but did not take the time to do it. Since you say it greatly improves the tonality of it, I am curious.

Did you replace the usual 5-15R receptacles with 6-15R or something else? Do you have a power strip or all your mains are plugged in receptacles. I tried to find 220-240V power strip and I found only TrippLite with 4 C13 outlets.

In Canada, we are on 220V unlike USA at 230V but since universal equipment is 110-240V, I might give it a go.

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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by ThomasOK »

Not finished yet but getting there. A little taste:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vfle84mwvklf ... M.mov?dl=0
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Re: ThomasOK's System

Post by beck »

I like it! What source are you using? CD12 or Hakai? :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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