Charlie1's System

[tpetsch]

Thanks beck and Tendaberry!

Here's the 109s at 26.5cm (wall is wobbly so never 100% exact).

Tukan: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/luttyytg ... 5d4ra&dl=0
M109: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/whl03eb7 ... ggv57&dl=0

Same deal for me again, you get the feeling the band playing thru the 109's aren't really that motivated and not offering up their best performances, still dragging as you stated earlier, while the band playing thru the Tukans are much more together & in the moment musically. ...And congrats on that NAIT 50 Charlie, sounds very promising although if a little green at the moment, needs several weeks to bake in before we can really hear what she can do.

[lejonklou]

Thanks beck and Tendaberry!

Here's the 109s at 26.5cm (wall is wobbly so never 100% exact).

Tukan: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/luttyytg ... 5d4ra&dl=0
M109: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/whl03eb7 ... ggv57&dl=0

This comparison was easier for me and I prefer the Tukans. 109 at 26.5 felt more dragging than before.

[Charlie1]

This comparison was easier for me and I prefer the Tukans. 109 at 26.5 felt more dragging than before.

Thanks Fredrik. I don't want to share more clips (it must be like more of your day job) but I've found a spot now where the timing of a beat is coherent enough and not too far short of the Tukans, although still not as tight (timing wise).

I think that's the fussiest speaker I've had to setup. The last shift from 23.5cm (good) to 23cm (not good) and back again was the smallest margin I've come across between something working and not working for me.

[Charlie1]

Same deal for me again, you get the feeling the band playing thru the 109's aren't really that motivated and not offering up their best performances, still dragging as you stated earlier, while the band playing thru the Tukans are much more together & in the moment musically. ...And congrats on that NAIT 50 Charlie, sounds very promising although if a little green at the moment, needs several weeks to bake in before we can really hear what she can do.

Thanks (ref Nait 50) - I will share more clips in a few weeks (I have a CD playing 24/7 in the garage to help things along).

I know what you mean about the 109s. Even now they are on the beat they are not as rhythmic as the Tukans. However, playing non-beat music late at night they are better than the Tukans. Also, I don't think I can live with the lack of bass on Tukans (in this setup anyway) so it's 109s. I think there is a nice synergy actually with Fredrik's amps, like they understand one another.

[tpetsch]

Same deal for me again, you get the feeling the band playing thru the 109's aren't really that motivated and not offering up their best performances, still dragging as you stated earlier, while the band playing thru the Tukans are much more together & in the moment musically. ...And congrats on that NAIT 50 Charlie, sounds very promising although if a little green at the moment, needs several weeks to bake in before we can really hear what she can do.

Thanks (ref Nait 50) - I will share more clips in a few weeks (I have a CD playing 24/7 in the garage to help things along).

I know what you mean about the 109s. Even now they are on the beat they are not as rhythmic as the Tukans. However, playing non-beat music late at night they are better than the Tukans. Also, I don't think I can live with the lack of bass on Tukans (in this setup anyway) so it's 109s. I think there is a nice synergy actually with Fredrik's amps, like they understand one another.

Tukans certainly have their own issues, one of them being the obvious lack of Bass as you mention. But I don't recall Tukans sounding this good as in your clips, I always recall just dismissing them at the shop at that time as we all kinda thought Linn was heading in a new direction. But now, if it was me I would check the torque on those Tukan Mid/Bass drivers and loosen them up as much as possible -back the screws off then slowly reapply torque with a screwdriver type handle tool in an x pattern a little bit at a time until all 4 are snug and then perhaps just another 1/4 turn ea.- in an attempt to unbind the metal surrounds of the drivers as much as possible in the hope that it will ease any cone binding during playback perhaps yielding a little better bass extension. ..I know there was a whole discussion several month back on the topic with T-OK offering up some interesting suggestions & pointers too.

[Whatsmynaim]

Charlie you probably already know this about the 109s but if not: There's a piece of foam behind the bass port and it's sometimes in the wrong position hurting the performance. Search the forum and there should be more info how to deal with it.

[Charlie1]

Thanks both for the Tukan and 109s tips. I will investigate them.

[Efraim roots]

... a brand new integrated amp that I totally don't need...

Wow living bold :D You are a content creator nowadays. Very interesting selections. Thanks! So much fun to hear the nait 50 in your context. Let's hope it's a keeper and that you don't have to lose money on it. It's difficult for me to understand how quickly 1973 units might sell. Getting late already?

[Charlie1]

Tx. Yeah, I think they are selling fast.

I doubt I'll ever find it as musicslly coherent as the 12/160 but it might prove to be a better all rounder and long-term solution what with a headphone input and smaller footprint.

You tempted?

[Efraim roots]

Yes I'm tempted. I would love to hear it.. I haven't listened to new Naim for a while now. And they come up with this! It's a 'how does naim sound today' benchmark I think. If it's actually very good it's a really cool product!

I love the concept of the 'giant killer, no remote phono integrated'. There is something about the best ones, that is a lot of the magic happens straight to the phono input. I now have 3 vintage pieces like this, nait, rational audio aura and myst tma3. I don't enjoy them if I don't use the phono input.
My myst is a black version speced with MC input in use with the Royd Coniston R right now. Quite something with a maxxed out LP12 and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze :D Makes me wonder about step up transformers for the nait and aura, something I know nothing about unfortunately.

[Charlie1]

Yes, perhaps the simplicity and short signal path is what helps. I loved my Exposure XV too and the X was supposed to be very special.

Roy George has now retired and so Steve Sells did the Nait 50. He also did the recent 250 update which has been very well received too.

[Charlie1]

These 109s are buggers, in my room at least. I've been through the Fredrik positioning post and ended up 41cm from the rear wall, which is a lot more. I know what beck means about them and they are still not 100% there with the timing but OK'ish. Other elements of their performance are quite good now but they certainly do not rock in my book!
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jz0ixa6o ... ljxy6&dl=0

[Spannko]

I agree charlie1. For whatever reason, that combination isn’t rocking ☹️

[lejonklou]

Naahh…

Checked that piece of foam at the bass reflex port?

[Charlie1]

One more try tomorrow. I improve things and think 'this is great' but then I listen again later or listen to clips again later it's just less crap, not actually good enough.

[Charlie1]

The foam was about 1cm away from the end of the tube. Now flush and positioned back to ~23cm. 135cm apart as previous clip.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y2dkjtm1 ... m2zk6&dl=0

[Tendaberry]

Much better!

[Charlie1]

Thanks!

And thanks for Whatsmynaim for the port suggestion and Fredrik for pursuing it - it was quite easy in the end, even for me.

This forum is the best but we already know that :)

I wonder if this is why I didn't get on with previous pairs - seems likely.

Still welcome any constructive criticism of them though!!!

[springwood64]

Wow what a difference. The earlier clip sounds unpleasant in comparison, from the first few notes.

[Spannko]

Not really any better for me I’m afraid charlie1. Apart from the overblown bass, which might be helped with positioning, musically it seems to be so far all over the place I can’t see positioning being of much help.

What’s driving the 109’s?

[Charlie1]

2002-spec LP12 (Cirkus/Lingo 2/Ekos 2/Adikt), Slipsik 8, Giella Pi, Tundra Monos, Silver ICs, and K400.

I think if you liked the Tukan clip then it's probably nothing upstream.

They are still quite stiff in terms of rhythm but they're no longer entirely devoid of rhythm. That's fine though, I think I can live with that for late evening listening esp as the office is kind of the opposite way around - great rhythm 'n timing but not that tuneful.

[Spannko]

The same system, but with Kans, was sounding pukka, so it can only be positioning or perhaps a fault with one of the speakers. You could try listening to them separately to eliminate a fault.

Alternatively, there’s no problem and I’m just having an off day #🤡

[Charlie1]

I think you're right to trust your ears. 109s are definitely not perfect, but at least I am enjoying them now.

I could switch to K20 for better interplay between musicians (my interpretation) but not sure that's a good move overall. Easy one to try though.

[Whatsmynaim]

They do sound more enjoyable but maybe you could try moving them out from the wall since they produce more bass now.
And are you connecting to the tweeter or super tweeter and what difference does it make if you try changing it?

[Charlie1]

Tweeter. I didn't even try the super tweeter as I didn't think that was the accepted approach.

OK, will try a bit further out.