Pete's System

[springwood64]

It seems to me that the nut is attached underneath the spike. If that is the case, I would first screw the nut on from above. It makes a very small difference, but it is reinforced by the pointed spikes. And if these are made of stainless steel, it is better. Since you are currently enjoying the sound, I suggest doing this before the bigger action, if that is an option.

Enjoy

Ah yes, well spotted and thanks. That's how it was set up when I bought it.

It's taken me a little while to track down instructions on setting up a mana support. I'll reset it with the nuts on top.

[Hermann]

Hello Pete, regarding the playground thread,

The spikes should be as short as possible. If the nut is not completely filled with the thread of the spike, they are correct. The nut only gets a little "nudge" so that it does not loosen. The ring tone is of course important when you tap the middle of the glass with your knuckle. It should be very clean and clear. Better across all four spikes. The tones generated should sound the same. This means that Mana is correctly set.

If you have any further questions regarding the setup, don't hesitate to ask.

[springwood64]

All done, thanks, and it is sounding even better. Very worthwhile.

The mana set up seems another non linear system: a tiny adjustment takes it from quite good to extremely good.

[Hermann]

That's correct Pete. All it takes is an incorrectly adjusted spike or even a loose nut to have a negative effect on the sound. Mana only works if everything is set up perfectly. Not easy in a multi-layer setup, but the reward is an overwhelming sound experience.

Glad you are satisfied.

[John]

The frame is bolted on to 18mm hardwood structural ply backing board with M6 T-nuts, and 3mm rubber washers between the ply and the frame.

The ply backing board is bolted to 3 stud uprights with 6 lag bolts.

My 24 year old Mana wall shelf is mounted to a backer board but with metal washers between the ply and frame. I question the use of rubber washers and think metal is a more appropriate material for energy drainage and makes for a more rigid support.

[springwood64]

Thanks for your suggestion John.

I don't understand anything about energy drainage, but I can understand support rigidity.

I had noticed that placing the deck on the shelf caused the shelf to shift a fraction of a mm.

I've swapped the washers for metal and can detect no shift at all now when I place the deck on the shelf.

[John]

Thanks for your suggestion John.

I don't understand anything about energy drainage, but I can understand support rigidity.

I had noticed that placing the deck on the shelf caused the shelf to shift a fraction of a mm.

I've swapped the washers for metal and can detect no shift at all now when I place the deck on the shelf.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the glass shelf on the wall stand went out of tune when the turntable was placed upon it.

I had a look at my wall shelf and noticed the number and thickness of washers used to attach it to the wall varied. I’m pretty sure the reason was to level and avoid twisting the wall shelf and letting it interface with the backer board in its natural state. I’ll have to dig out my instructions that came with the shelf, if any. Much of my work with Mana was done 24 years ago when the Mana forum and John Watson, the founder was an active participant. In fact my wall shelf was a gift from John Watson.

My LP12 was moved from the wall shelf in my Living room to a 5 tier Phase 4 Mana amp stand within a year after finishing our basement where it performed much better on a poured concrete floor.

[springwood64]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the glass shelf on the wall stand went out of tune when the turntable was placed upon it.

I had a look at my wall shelf and noticed the number and thickness of washers used to attach it to the wall varied. I’m pretty sure the reason was to level and avoid twisting the wall shelf and letting it interface with the backer board in its natural state. I’ll have to dig out my instructions that came with the shelf, if any. Much of my work with Mana was done 24 years ago when the Mana forum and John Watson, the founder was an active participant. In fact my wall shelf was a gift from John Watson.

My LP12 was moved from the wall shelf in my Living room to a 5 tier Phase 4 Mana amp stand within a year after finishing our basement where it performed much better on a poured concrete floor.

I'd never heard of Mana until I saw the shelf on sale for a v low price. Having heard the beneficial impact of my new wall shelf, and it's sensitivity to set-up, I can sense a Mana rabbit hole yawning in front of me. I can feel the draw of experimenting with more Mana supports ....

BTW, I restored the rubber washers. The metal washers seemed to reduce the engagement that the shelf brings. I also experimented with leveling the shelf so that the turntable platter ends up dead level when placed on the shelf, but oddly the whole setup sounds best when the Mana glass is tuned absolutely level without the turntable, even tho placing the turntable on it drops the shelf a fraction of a mm.

The interaction of tramp feet and deck suspension and the consequent effect on platter level seems complex, making the resulting level tricky to predict. In addition my spirit level shows that the deck plinth top is not straight to within 0.1mm/m so leveling via the plinth has an unavoidable degree of error.

Although my floor is suspended, and cannot be replaced with poured concrete or other high mass, I am considering what I can do to better support the electronics now that the turntable is on the wall. Maybe I should wall mount the rest of the kit? From pics of other people's systems, this does not seem to be a popular option and I wonder why not.

[springwood64]

would you care to elaborate on the details of the sealant you used. might be a good experiment for my spare kabers.

I followed the steps detailed here and used the same sealant recommended: https://hifikabin.me.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2665

I was initially planning to test with a pair of sacrificial speakers. I'd previously experimented with replacement gaskets and proved it was possible to degrade the Espeks' musicality. I was cautious because sealing is not an easily reversible step.

However I was persuaded to try, and after testing on one tweeter, decided it was clearly beneficial and sealed them all.

I thought I should provide an update on this change. It’s not a straightforward change and has caused quite a lot of work as well as some angst.

It took a few months before the bond settled enough for me to consistently tune the driver screw torques. Early on I found that changing the torque on one driver (eg the mids) would affect the tuned torque on another (eg the tweeters). However, now that does not seem to happen, and its reasonably easy to tune the torques and arrive at the same result irrespective of the order I tune the drivers.

However, sealing the drivers changes the character of the Espeks and the way they interact with the room. At low to moderate volumes the sealed drivers bring a much greater precision to notes. I hear more information, and the result is very engaging. At these volumes the Espeks retain their magic, their sweetness, and bring more of the music. As I increase the volume, they become more engaging, until at around 8/10 (9 is my max) an unpleasant harshness emerges.

On Friday I retuned the speaker positions with the volume high enough to bring out the harshness. This was my toughest and longest tuning session yet. It took 6 hours, and my notes make entertaining reading as I struggled to decide better v worse, trying not to let the degree of harshness dominate my decision, yet also including it in the choice. For the first time I systematically followed the guide on this forum, and it wasn’t until I reached the final step of tuning the back wall distance for each speaker separately, that it clicked on the last few mm. On a hunch I moved the left speaker closer to the wall, and quickly heard an improvement, making the optimum easy to hear. Another hunch moved the right speaker forward, and again this was clearly better. The right speaker is now 12mm further out than the left.

I’ll let this new arrangement settle in, but I still hear harshness at the top of the volume range, though now it is on top of a much more enjoyable sound,

[springwood64]

I was hanging on a sea cliff on Saturday, when I remembered port bungs.

A quick calculation this evening lead me to create two sets of foam bungs of 22mm and 25mm depth.

A nice brief listening session, helped by my youngest, and I now have the 25mm bungs in the rear facing ports (I assume for the mids).

Harshness entirely gone at all volumes.

[Hermann]

Hello Pete,
do I understand that you are now happy with your system? I would be happy to read that.

[springwood64]

Hello Pete,
do I understand that you are now happy with your system? I would be happy to read that.

Thanks Hermann. Yes! Very much so. The combination of the speaker position tuning and the port bungs has really lifted my enjoyment.

The port bungs seem to do more than remove the harshness, adding an effortless enjoyability at all volumes.

[springwood64]

I've posted some clips here: https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... 542#p74542

[springwood64]

I've been experimenting with different port bungs and will post the clips in a few days

IMG_20241114_112025338_MFNR~2.jpg

[Sopper]

Have you tried (drinking) straws?
You can play with the length of the port that way

[springwood64]

Have you tried (drinking) straws?
You can play with the length of the port that way

Thanks for reminding me. I have not tried them yet, but will definitely do so.

[springwood64]

Have you tried (drinking) straws?
You can play with the length of the port that way

Here is a set of comparisons: https://photos.app.goo.gl/SyUn2SUYfnZb3W4SA

1. No bung https://photos.app.goo.gl/Uu8RHVwcjLUkM4Eo7
2. Straws occupying 10cm of the port https://photos.app.goo.gl/f2BwDSbcv1XBAuJR9
3. Thin (2cm) foam bung https://photos.app.goo.gl/bJtBWpgJx7touHVT8
4. Medium (5cm) foam bung https://photos.app.goo.gl/wyAVU8qDyitsD8mq7
5. Long (10cm) foam bung https://photos.app.goo.gl/4QvR8zKPZHY7XDfK6

I will record further tests of different straw lengths in the port.

[tokenbrit]

I will record further tests of different straw lengths in the port.

Fine tuning of 2 because it sounds good/best? (it did to me)

[tpetsch]

sorry, wrong place.

[springwood64]

I will record further tests of different straw lengths in the port.

Fine tuning of 2 because it sounds good/best? (it did to me)

Yes I thought so.

[springwood64]

No.2 while sounding very similar is simply less in tune, the same band as No Bung but after several drinks.

That made me smile!

The bungs do seem to progressively slow or spread aspects of the timing.

[lejonklou]

Not sure if you want the comments in here on in the Playground, but definitely no bungs for me.

[tokenbrit]

I'm not familiar with the song in the clips: I hear the percussion as slightly 'off beat' with no bungs - is that how it's meant to sound? The percussion sounds more 'together' to my ears with Straws, hence my preference... I can hear how that takes away from the overall expression of the song, but I find the 'offbeat' a little challenging to my ears.

[lejonklou]

The percussion might seem a little lazy in '1. No bung', but in '2. Straws' I think they're off on their own, not participating with the rest of the band.

The whole performance just gets stiffer and stiffer as I move into the higher numbers.

What I hear in these clips confirms what I've experienced every time I've tried to put bungs in a well tuned ported speaker, starting from the early 1990's. The results have always been a choking effect on the music, which I find annoying.

[Spannko]

Sorry Pete, for me it’s not even close. Any modification to the ports appears to adversely affect the musicality.