It really ties the room together

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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Charlie1 »

markiteight wrote: 2021-03-27 23:41 This just makes me want to find a good pair of Mk1 Kans even more! I really like Tukans but I've never heard Kans of any incarnation.
I've just been compared Tukan, Kan 1 and Kan 2. Kans have even less bass so if your room is even a moderate size then Kans will probably struggle and sound tinny as my wife describes it. Tukans can seem equally musical with some music. Pop that boogies along can work well, similar to Keilidhs, but then you'll play something else and it will fall quite a long way short of what Kans can deliver. You'll probably have more luck integrating the Kan 2 but, if you do find a pair, then beware of insufficient bass making them unworkable.

EDIT: I've been using Kan 2s for a bit and they are very good, much more neutral / normal than Kans, BUT they just don't 'take me there' on some tracks. I will probably just put up with the wierd Kan 1 sound for the sake of being drawn into the music.
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Changes are afoot...

Image
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Re: It really ties the room together

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What do you think so far?

Will we get clips against your previous setup? ;)
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Re: It really ties the room together

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I've only had a couple hours with them so I don't want to draw any conclusions yet but so far I get the impression everything that's been said about them is true...both the good and the bad!

I definitely plan on posting some clips but I want to give them (and me) some time to settle in first.
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Re: It really ties the room together

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<thumbs up>
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Ok...I couldn't resist. Here's a little preview:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqwt5jyg4k09y ... 4.MOV?dl=0
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Very open and clear sound, especially compared to what I'm used to.

Seem very musical too.

So are these passive speakers or do they have in-built amps?
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2021-09-22 09:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-22 09:25 Very open and clear sound, especially compared to what I'm used to.

They seem very musical too.

So are these passive speakers or do they have in-built amps?
+1 and also Mk 1 or Mk 2?
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by Spannko »

Great musicality markiteight! I prefer them to your previous speakers.
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-22 09:25 Very open and clear sound...

Seem very musical too.
I've always enjoyed floor standers, so the sound is a bit (c)lean for my liking, especially compared to your DWs, but there's definitely a fun musicality there. Hopefully they'll fill in a bit with playing, which doesn't seem to be a problem :)
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Re: It really ties the room together

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markiteight wrote: 2021-09-22 02:39 Ok...I couldn't resist. Here's a little preview:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqwt5jyg4k09y ... 4.MOV?dl=0
Any chance of comparative clips ,I really find it hard to make a judgement from one point of reference
I know that tune
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-22 09:25 Very open and clear sound, especially compared to what I'm used to.
I keep having to remind myself that these are professional monitor speakers. As such they are intended to be treated as tools, designed to assist the user in completing a task. They are not meant to be recreational, listening-for-pleasure speakers. As such their tonal balance is much leaner and more "analytical" than the majority of consumer grade speakers.
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-22 09:25 Seem very musical too.
Quite! And ultimately that's the goal, so we shouldn't care if their tonal balance leans a bit lean if they get the music so right. Right? If they didn't get the music right there would be nothing redeeming about these speakers, so it is absolutely essential that they be fed a top notch musical source. As Jajo mentioned elsewhere WRT the 708P, anything less and they aren't worth listening to. I suspect (although I have no evidence to back it up) that my sources are likely a "minimum spec" needed to get satisfactory results from these speakers.
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-22 09:25 So are these passive speakers or do they have in-built amps?
Not only do they have built in amps (Class D) but they do all their signal processing (crossovers, equalization, level control, etc.) in the digital domain. So that means in the S&G clip above the analog signal from the LP12 has been converted to digital and back again before being amplified and fed to the drivers. According to our purist mindsets they do absolutely everything wrong! And yet...
V.A.MKD wrote: 2021-09-22 09:47 +1 and also Mk 1 or Mk 2?
Mk 1. It's easy to tell Mk1 from Mk2: The JBL logo is at the bottom of the enclosure on the Mk. 1, and in between the drivers on the Mk. 2.
Spannko wrote: 2021-09-22 10:43 Great musicality markiteight! I prefer them to your previous speakers.
I do too, but again I keep having to remind myself that it's not fair to compare the speakers in isolation, given that the JBLs include the power amps as well. It's possible that the Omens could perform at a higher level if they weren't being pushed around by a 20+ year old Klout. I've always felt that the Klout has a certain special *something* that I find lacking in other amps, but that doesn't change the fact that there are more musical options out there. Would a better amp push the Omen's performance beyond the JBL? Perhaps, but Klout/Omen is already one order of magnitude more expensive than the JBLs (using original retail prices) so I won't be finding out!
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-22 14:47 I've always enjoyed floor standers, so the sound is a bit (c)lean for my liking, especially compared to your DWs, but there's definitely a fun musicality there. Hopefully they'll fill in a bit with playing, which doesn't seem to be a problem :)
They do lack the warmth and pleasant tonal balance of the Omens (which themselves trend toward a fast/lean/revealing balance) but their bass performance is every bit as satisfying as the much bigger Zus. Before the speakers arrived I expected that I'd be in the market for a subwoofer again, but that just isn't necessary. I do expect that their performance will improve further as they and the new cables settle in, but if in that process the tonal balance doesn't change I won't complain!
Lego wrote: 2021-09-22 15:43 Any chance of comparative clips ,I really find it hard to make a judgement from one point of reference
Absolutely, but I'm going to let things settle in a bit first. ThomasOK made up a set of 2m RCA to XLR Linn Blacks for me, and assuming they follow a similar break-in pattern as other cables, they're in their "excited puppy" phase right now. I want to wait 'till they're past the "moody teenager" phase and settled into "mature adult" before I make any comparisons.

If I end up keeping them (at this stage there's no reason I wouldn't), selling on the Omens and Klout will free up funds that could be put toward improvements further upstream. Question is, where should I focus my upgrade-itis next?
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Re: It really ties the room together

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markiteight wrote: 2021-09-22 21:32
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-22 09:25 So are these passive speakers or do they have in-built amps?
Not only do they have built in amps (Class D) but they do all their signal processing (crossovers, equalization, level control, etc.) in the digital domain. So that means in the S&G clip above the analog signal from the LP12 has been converted to digital and back again before being amplified and fed to the drivers. According to our purist mindsets they do absolutely everything wrong! And yet...
OK, that kinda fits in with my feeling towards the sound. It's like good digital in that it can sound really musical and yet there's a last hurdle it can't quite overcome - a kind of effortless naturalness that just allows me to completely relax into the music.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by ThomasOK »

It's sounding pretty good. Based on my experience with them it does sound like they are in the excited puppy stage - and I am currently VERY familiar with what an excited puppy is like. I expect both excited puppies will settle down over time, yours most likely quicker than mine.
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Re: It really ties the room together

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ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 16:16 .. I am currently VERY familiar with what an excited puppy is like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJEbbWVosw :? :D
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Mi8, could you borrow a Sagatun or Giella to help you make your final decision, since that's where you'd most likely be headed with these speakers? The overall system sound is key for you I think. Mind you, if you're intending to buy second hand then maybe not.
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Re: It really ties the room together

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tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-24 17:03
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 16:16 .. I am currently VERY familiar with what an excited puppy is like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJEbbWVosw :? :D
Boy, if that isn't a perfect video for both the subject and the forum, I don't know what is!
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 17:11 Mi8, could you borrow a Sagatun or Giella to help you make your final decision, since that's where you'd most likely be headed with these speakers? The overall system sound is key for you I think. Mind you, if you're intending to buy second hand then maybe not.
With LP12 & Hakai, it would need to be a Sagatun over a Giella unless Mi8 wants to swap cables in favour of the headphone out - having come from an Akurate Kontrol myself, I can attest to the Sagatun being a good step up musically - but then there's the matter of replacing the Exotik's phono stage too, so add an Entity? (or buy my Linto, and I'll buy an Entity :)
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Re: It really ties the room together

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ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 18:05
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-24 17:03
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 16:16 .. I am currently VERY familiar with what an excited puppy is like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJEbbWVosw :? :D
Boy, if that isn't a perfect video for both the subject and the forum, I don't know what is!
That feeling when the search results turn up a gem... :)
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Re: It really ties the room together

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ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 16:16 It's sounding pretty good. Based on my experience with them it does sound like they are in the excited puppy stage - and I am currently VERY familiar with what an excited puppy is like. I expect both excited puppies will settle down over time, yours most likely quicker than mine.
I imagine so. At least mine doesn't piddle on the floor when it gets too excited!

I had another listen last night and the music was noticeably dull and disengaged compared to earlier. I think we've already hit the moody teenager phase. It appears cables do grow up faster than dogs.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 18:05
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-24 17:03
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 16:16 .. I am currently VERY familiar with what an excited puppy is like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJEbbWVosw :? :D
Boy, if that isn't a perfect video for both the subject and the forum, I don't know what is!
For some reason Thomas' comment reminds me of this scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2qP-xQ_7o
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 17:11 Mi8, could you borrow a Sagatun or Giella to help you make your final decision, since that's where you'd most likely be headed with these speakers? The overall system sound is key for you I think. Mind you, if you're intending to buy second hand then maybe not.
That's a good question, Charlie1. Hey Thomas, do you have a Sagatun kikkin around I could borrow (after the moody teenager has moved out, of course)?
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-24 18:11
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 17:11 Mi8, could you borrow a Sagatun or Giella to help you make your final decision, since that's where you'd most likely be headed with these speakers? The overall system sound is key for you I think. Mind you, if you're intending to buy second hand then maybe not.
With LP12 & Hakai, it would need to be a Sagatun over a Giella unless Mi8 wants to swap cables in favour of the headphone out - having come from an Akurate Kontrol myself, I can attest to the Sagatun being a good step up musically - but then there's the matter of replacing the Exotik's phono stage too, so add an Entity? (or buy my Linto, and I'll buy an Entity :)
I already have a Linto, thankyouverymuch ;-)
But you bring up a point that is related to my current dilemma: do I sell the DWs/Klout/Linto/Lingo and get an Entity and 2nd hand Radikal or keep the sources as-is and fund a Sagatun with the sale of DWs/Klout/Exotik? I know I know...source first. But I can't help wondering if the Exotik is a bottleneck that is holding back my current sources and I might actually be better off upgrading the preamp first and the sources later.

It occurs to me that HAKAI/Kikkin/JBL 308P might be the best budget single source system possible. Unfortunately it's also improbable considering that every part of that system is discontinued and many of the components are NLA!
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Does Kikkin sound like a Sagatun? I've not compared but not confident it does.

When you partner Lejonklou amps and modern Linn speakers (Majik / Akurate) you know it's gonna sound really good cos people have had them for a long while and stuck with them. Plus Fredrik has used M109s/A212s in development in the past. Same for Klangedang T1s.

If you already have Lejonklou amps / Linn speakers (like David Need) then you can go out and audition new speakers and take your time to find a really good fit.

But you're looking to get the speakers+power amps first, sell the cherished Klout and not so cherished Exotik, and then look at a Sagatun. I just think you should try the JBLs with a Sagatun before commiting to these self powered speakers. If you upgrade the LP12 or something beforehand, then fine, but at least you know your destination is sound.

These JBLs seem quite a new fashion. Im just a bit wary cos not many people seem to have stuck with 3677s that were popular a few years back. In fact, now I think of it, matthias is the only person here that I know still uses them but he has Exposure amps. 1

That's my thinking anyway. That synergy is quite important cos over time quite small things can start to annoy.

What do other members think? Am I worrying unnecessarily?
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Sagatun stereo at launch was competition, musically, for Klimax Kontrol. It has since been updated and will show a clean pair of heels to your Exotik. DW + DA + Klout for Sagatun is the most straightforward change you can make... With the revealing nature of the JBLs, I'd expect them to show the clear benefit of any upstream improvement. Upgrading to Radikal might be easier going forward / a bit later given the possibility of trade-ins for the forthcoming upgraded Radikal & motor, but it's not a straight swap like the preamp... Bottom line is you're always going to need a volume control for you LP12 - might as well make it a good'un ;)
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 22:45 Does Kikkin sound like a Sagatun? I've not compared but not confident it does.
I don't think so. I don't recall the Kikkin's original price but IIRC the Sagatun costs somewhere around 8-10x more than the Kikkin. I mentioned the Kikkin because its musical performance vs. money spent is exceptional, as is HAKAI and 308Ps, so when you combine the three the result is a whole lotta music for very little money...the ultimate budget music system.
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 22:45 When you partner Lejonklou amps and modern Linn speakers (Majik / Akurate) you know it's gonna sound really good cos people have had them for a long while and stuck with them. Plus Fredrik has used M109s/A212s in development in the past. Same for Klangedang T1s.
Fredrik is also using the 308P for product development. I believe he's also used the 708P and the 3677, but don't quote me on that!
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 22:45 But you're looking to get the speakers+power amps first, sell the cherished Klout and not so cherished Exotik, and then look at a Sagatun. I just think you should try the JBLs with a Sagatun before commiting to these self powered speakers. If you upgrade the LP12 or something beforehand, then fine, but at least you know your destination is sound.
Ah I see what you're saying. That makes sense!
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 22:45 These JBLs seem quite a new fashion. Im just a bit wary cos not many people seem to have stuck with 3677s that were popular a few years back. In fact, now I think of it, matthias is the only person here that I know still uses them but he has Exposure amps. 1
I know of at least one other forum member who is using them, and another who got rid of them only because he moved to a smaller space. I believe Thomas still has his too.
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 22:45 That's my thinking anyway. That synergy is quite important cos over time quite small things can start to annoy.

What do other members think? Am I worrying unnecessarily?
I understand your urging caution. After all once I sell the DWs and Klouts I'm committed to the JBLs so I should make absolutely certain that's what I want first.
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-24 23:49 Sagatun stereo at launch was competition, musically, for Klimax Kontrol. It has since been updated and will show a clean pair of heels to your Exotik. DW + DA + Klout for Sagatun is the most straightforward change you can make... With the revealing nature of the JBLs, I'd expect them to show the clear benefit of any upstream improvement. Upgrading to Radikal might be easier going forward / a bit later given the possibility of trade-ins for the forthcoming upgraded Radikal & motor, but it's not a straight swap like the preamp... Bottom line is you're always going to need a volume control for you LP12 - might as well make it a good'un ;)
It sounds like you and Charlie1 are on a similar wavelength WRT test driving a Sagatun, tokenbrit. My only fear is that doing so will be like the time I flew international business class. Now that I know it's really hard going back!

I'm currently listening to 10,000 Maniac's MTV Unplugged via HAKAI. It's never really been an album I've connected with or felt engaged by.

I'm fully engaged. And I feel a connection to the music and musicians I've not experienced with this album.

Apparently the angsty teenagers are in a good mood tonight.
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Re: It really ties the room together

Post by V.A.MKD »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 18:05
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-09-24 17:03
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-24 16:16 .. I am currently VERY familiar with what an excited puppy is like...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJEbbWVosw :? :D
Boy, if that isn't a perfect video for both the subject and the forum, I don't know what is!
HAHAHAHAHAHAH
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Re: It really ties the room together

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Charlie1 wrote: 2021-09-24 22:45 Does Kikkin sound like a Sagatun? I've not compared but not confident it does.

When you partner Lejonklou amps and modern Linn speakers (Majik / Akurate) you know it's gonna sound really good cos people have had them for a long while and stuck with them. Plus Fredrik has used M109s/A212s in development in the past. Same for Klangedang T1s.

If you already have Lejonklou amps / Linn speakers (like David Need) then you can go out and audition new speakers and take your time to find a really good fit.

But you're looking to get the speakers+power amps first, sell the cherished Klout and not so cherished Exotik, and then look at a Sagatun. I just think you should try the JBLs with a Sagatun before commiting to these self powered speakers. If you upgrade the LP12 or something beforehand, then fine, but at least you know your destination is sound.

These JBLs seem quite a new fashion. Im just a bit wary cos not many people seem to have stuck with 3677s that were popular a few years back. In fact, now I think of it, matthias is the only person here that I know still uses them but he has Exposure amps. 1

That's my thinking anyway. That synergy is quite important cos over time quite small things can start to annoy.

What do other members think? Am I worrying unnecessarily?
Charlie1 you are just right.

If we look for long term happiness, than you are absolutely right.

We will be more on our music and enjoy, instead of HiFi or "looking" for right partner / synergy for Lejonklou System, now ... only speakers ...
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