Charlie1's System

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2012-10-05 15:32

anthony wrote:This is useful for evaluating all the instruments together....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2xOw-VXe_g

Very good! :O)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-10-05 23:46

Charlie1 wrote:As for listening for the message. That seems like normal listening to me. How do you listen for a message? Isn’t that just being more or less engaged?

We run the risk of getting stuck in words! This is always much simpler when one does it live, together, listening to a song and sharing ones impressions.

If we have to continue with words, which I guess we do on an internet forum, I think the difference between 'feeling engaged' and using the Tune Method is that the latter also involves analysis. If you study what science knows about how the brain interprets music, you'll find that there's a general division between analytical listening (which for instance a musician does when trying to understand what another musician is doing exactly) and emotional listening (for example spontaneously reacting to the emotions of a song played in a supermarket). As I see it, the Tune Method requires both of these two ways of listening. We are letting ourselves react emotionally to the whole, while actively trying to make sense of it.

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2012-10-06 07:24

lejonklou wrote:[..., I think the difference between 'feeling engaged' and using the Tune Method is that the latter also involves analysis. If you study what science knows about how the brain interprets music, you'll find that there's a general division between analytical listening (which for instance a musician does when trying to understand what another musician is doing exactly) and emotional listening (for example spontaneously reacting to the emotions of a song played in a supermarket). As I see it, the Tune Method requires both of these two ways of listening. We are letting ourselves react emotionally to the whole, while actively trying to make sense of it.

I think this is a good description. The trick is, I think, to let the brain respond to the music in the relaxed way we listen to music normally while trying to interpret the response without interfering too much. One can, for example, pay attention to the secondary bodily responses (ehm, the musically relevant that is...), such as foot tapping, the desire to sing along to the tune or other more delicate responses one can sense. I tend to feel the rythm and musical flow as if there where a resonant mechanical device somewhere in the region of the centre of the back or along the spine. It is not a tickeling feeling, just a notion of a musically satisfying feeling.

... saturday morning drivelling.

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2012-10-06 08:17

I know where I've been going wrong .... Using John Cage's 4'33" as a test track!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-03-07 21:58

Link to a video of my system before (Salty, maybe this makes up for not being able to show off my system when you visited the UK.)

Not sure how well these videos come across, but fancied a go. I originally uploaded them to be played online, but it just kills stone dead the last bit of musicality left in them. So, the links are to a download instead. Unfortunately, they take about 5mins each. They were taken with our old Canon compact camera.

Perhaps mine are as dull as all the rest, but I did try to liven them up with an LP12 bounce test. Maybe some dancy girls would have been better...

Brief update - One channel on my Klyde recently failed and is now with Linn. Getting my old Akiva back in the system has been fantastic, even if it is worn. My original aim was to offset the downgrade to Klyde with a source upgrade, but I now realise it wasn't 100% successful. Akiva is really more fundamental to my enjoyment than I realised (Tom - you were right!) It's not like the step down from KK to Kikkin where nothing major was lost - i.e. just an across the board drop in musicality. But the Akiva seems more important and opens up my LP collection. In particular, some accoustic/vocal music just wasn't very engaging via the Klyde. So, I'm looking forward to getting another Akiva soon, but one with low hours.

'Rock Me On The Water' - just cheapo 80s Nice Price pressing: -
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/mtd6a61javvrkf ... 17cgA&dl=1

'Roxanne' 12" to follow...

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-03-07 23:45

'Roxanne' 12" below. Bit harder to bounce the deck at 45rpm and not helped by the music blasting in my ears and shaking hands after a caffeine rush: -

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/md8edv0c5wifmt ... oX7lA&dl=1

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » 2013-03-08 00:01

So..
(by looking at your system)

...you say that it you have a Klyde and a Kikkin..

best upgrade is cartridge (Akiva)

instead of a KK?

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2013-03-08 00:35

Daniel wrote:So...

best upgrade is cartridge (Akiva)

instead of a KK?

Charlie covered that, above:

Charlie1 wrote:It's not like the step down from KK to Kikkin where nothing major was lost - i.e. just an across the board drop in musicality. But the Akiva seems more important and opens up my LP collection

.. but, maybe, he'll add a little more... My guess is 'source first' - a better pre-amp can't recover what a poorer cartridge fails to reproduce from an
LP.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-03-08 10:08

tokenbrit wrote:... My guess is 'source first' - a better pre-amp can't recover what a poorer cartridge fails to reproduce from an
LP.

Yes, I expect so. I swapped between Kikkin1 and KK/1/D a few times because I owned both for a couple of years. I never felt the drop down to Kikkin was a huge deal. Obviously, The KK/1/D was better in every way, and so it should be at x16 the price of a Kikkin1, but it didn't influence my listening habits. Whereas, Klyde to Akiva seems to make a much bigger difference and allows me to enjoy music I thought was a bit boring before.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-03-08 10:11

Last one I did and no doubt the final straw.

'Chocolate' - a modern LP with a touch of nice inner groove distortion sneaking in: -

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/ayk1phv6ndaddu ... MFKig&dl=1

Forgot to mention, I've bought a pair of mk1 242s, one of the last pairs. They sound good at the owner's house on a Klimax system. I'm expecting them to offer much more resolution. Just hope they can also rock with my system. I will hang onto the 140s a little while just in case.

It's a bit of a departure from source-first as I was originally planning to get a Urika, although would like to do that too, one day.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » 2013-03-08 12:50

Charlie1 wrote:
tokenbrit wrote:... My guess is 'source first' - a better pre-amp can't recover what a poorer cartridge fails to reproduce from an
LP.

Yes, I expect so. I swapped between Kikkin1 and KK/1/D a few times because I owned both for a couple of years. I never felt the drop down to Kikkin was a huge deal. Obviously, The KK/1/D was better in every way, and so it should be at x16 the price of a Kikkin1, but it didn't influence my listening habits. Whereas, Klyde to Akiva seems to make a much bigger difference and allows me to enjoy music I thought was a bit boring before.

Thanks Charlie, that answered my question.
I have the same experience with Kikkin and KK, hence my question.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-03-08 13:17

Charlie1 wrote: Forgot to mention, I've bought a pair of mk1 242s, one of the last pairs. They sound good at the owner's house on a Klimax system. I'm expecting them to offer much more resolution. Just hope they can also rock with my system. I will hang onto the 140s a little while just in case.

No need for that, 242 trounce 140 imho.
242 is really a lot better speaker. Owned both...
Even with the metal base, 140 is undefined, slow with overblown boomy bass
BUT...242 doesn't rock as 140. However that is something you going to forget quite soon - or not ;-)
Should be interesting to read your thoughts.

I miss SLAM in 242 but prefer quality over quantity!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-04-11 22:33

Deleted

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-04-11 23:44

That's how the suspension of an LP12 should be when perfectly tuned!

Tap the centre of gravity, while record is playing, and it just keeps playing.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-04-12 17:03

Thanks Fredrik! Of course, it's not any of my doing, but the result of Peter Swain's efforts. Glad it looks just right in your eyes though.

Here's a different one on YouTube. For some reason, the photobucket ones don't play on some smart phones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpae63-x ... e=youtu.be

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2014-02-09 19:46

Been using LP storage boxes in an attempt to improve the sound of the room. Before going into that, I re-centred my rack between the speakers now that I've finished trying all sorts of LP12 tables and racks. I played a record afterwards and it was clearly not on-song and what I'm used to. I then checked how level the deck was and had to add some paper under the rear feet. It wasn't quite enough, but this made all the difference. I added a couple more sheets to get it spot on and didn't really perceive much more benefit. It was a clear demonstration how the LP12 needs to be level in order to perform as it should.

Anyway, the storage. First I tried the following: -

I started by adding just the bottom box each side. It was less tuneful, but not much difference. I then added the second layer and boy, did this have a negative impact. Quite ponderous and less easy to follow. Third layer was worse again, but not that much. A better test would have been to re-tune the speakers each time, but my heart wasn't in it.

Next, I wanted to cancel out the first reflections off the side walls: -

I didn't want to go 3 boxes high cos it would have blocked out the window. It certainly did the job, but I didn't like the effect. There was less of a musical impact to the previous test, but the impact on the sound was not very nice. It didn't sound so 'alive' and spacious. I also thought it was less musically engaging, so that was the end of that one too. Incidentally, the boxes in front of the radiator in the last photo don't cause this issue as I've tried it without them - I presume they are too far out from the speakers to catch the first reflections.

Lastly, I tried removing the existing corner storage a layer at a time. All were clearly worse, being much less musical. But then the speakers had been fine tuned with them in place, so again, a better test would have been to re-tune the speakers.

That's it. A bit dull perhaps, but thought it might interest a few enthusiasts.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2014-02-09 21:19

Let me start by ducking the WAF comments.

It has been so long since I've had my LP12 and record cubes, much like your's it appears, in my listening room. Back when I found that having the cubes staggered and not square to the walls worth trying. The end result being WAF reject. Stacked 45 degrees to each other.

I've had more success putting something to blocking the 1st reflection before it encounters the wall rather than between the wall and listening zone.

I have 6 of the cubes and I noticed record buying slowed the nearer to filling the available space I got.

Tractor Boy · Post by **Tractor Boy** » 2014-02-09 21:46

Why is the "LK"-box off center in the rack?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2014-02-09 22:28

SaltyDog wrote:I've had more success putting something to blocking the 1st reflection before it encounters the wall rather than between the wall and listening zone.

Hi Salty, with the boxes so close to the wall, I would have thought they do both - before and after. What do you use?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2014-02-09 22:31

Tractor Boy wrote:Why is the "LK"-box off center in the rack?

There is a Kikkin next to it, but it's much shallower and set back, so not visible.

I did try the Kikkin on a dedicated tier below and move the power amp down a tier, but it was better this way.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2014-02-09 23:27

Charlie1 wrote:
SaltyDog wrote:I've had more success putting something to blocking the 1st reflection before it encounters the wall rather than between the wall and listening zone.
Hi Salty, with the boxes so close to the wall, I would have thought they do both - before and after. What do you use?

Well in this room without record cubes I use what was my listening chair! It is allowed to sit at an angle and works really well.

I would think the boxes squared to the wall will move the first reflection. I aim to break up the waves and not the harmony. (pun intended) I have had as much or more accidental success than thought out theory based moving stuff. It has to work with the room and family here.

Best has been a Christmas tree. That's why folks always start singing on the 1st day of Christmas. So maybe a pear tree?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2014-02-10 14:53

SaltyDog wrote:Well in this room without record cubes I use what was my listening chair! It is allowed to sit at an angle and works really well.

I would think the boxes squared to the wall will move the first reflection. I aim to break up the waves and not the harmony. (pun intended) I have had as much or more accidental success than thought out theory based moving stuff. It has to work with the room and family here.

Best has been a Christmas tree. That's why folks always start singing on the 1st day of Christmas. So maybe a pear tree?

Ah yes, forgot about your Xmas tree. What about a partridge in an indoor orange tree instead :)

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2014-03-14 21:18

Hey Charlie how come you got a photo on one set of cubes and not the other set :o) ...looks a nice setup

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2014-03-14 23:40

Hey, good point Leo. I will find another photo and tune dem the difference tomorrow, maybe try some different frames to see which is best ;)

Clark · Post by **Clark** » 2014-06-09 10:45

Reading from your experimentation here Charlie, I have recently decided to complement my current setup (Majik DS-I, K200, 109s) with a second hand Akurate 4200/D, and not with a Majik 6100/D.

I am having hopes that the Akurate amplification will provide me a slightly softer presentation over the single-boxed DS-I and attenuate some of the brightness I have been perceiving with some recordings in my current setup.