SSD more musical than HDD!

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Music Lover
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SSD more musical than HDD!

Post by Music Lover »

Installed an Intel SSD 80GB yesterday in my NV+, WOW.
Sadly it's just a loan from a dear friend... :(
SSD is not exactly low cost but BOY they are great. More music AND better sound.

Full name is Intel X25-M SATA SSD, 80GB 2.5" with 3.5" adapter included (just connected the SSD without adapter directly in the SATA slot)
This SSD is Intel SSD generation2 (=G2)

Soon is generation3 (G3) here, expect lower prices.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3965/inte ... s-revealed

I have taken the decision to replace my HDDs.
See my add.

Now we need to compare SSD's, anyone up to it?
I promise, you’re not going to regret it!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by monkeydevil »

This is great news. Thanks for the heads up. How large are the SSDs? Personally I would like a 2TB, do they even exist yet? I don't dare to even think what those would cost... But in a few years maybe?
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Post by Music Lover »

monkeydevil wrote:This is great news. Thanks for the heads up. How large are the SSDs? Personally I would like a 2TB, do they even exist yet? I don't dare to even think what those would cost... But in a few years maybe?
SSD's are quite small.
The biggest are app 500GB and you looking at around 1k€.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by ThomasOK »

I don't even want to think what a 2TB would cost if they made it as the price goes up exponentially with the capacity. The biggest I have seen are around 480 to 500GB. The 480GB from OWC (who supposedly has the best from a performance standpoint) is almost $1600US whereas a 240GB is $520 and a 120 is $250. At current pricing the 120GB units seem to be the best bang for the buck but the prices are coming down fairly rapidly as the technology improves and becomes more popular.

Good to hear it is a musically superior technology. I remember when CDs first came out Ivor said they were already obsolete as storage technologies without moving parts were just around the corner. I think he was a bit optimistic with that but storage without moving parts is certainly one of the next big areas of development. Once the cost gets in line with regular hard disks their days will be numbered as the SSD drives are more efficient, faster and quieter. The SSD in my MacBook Air really gets apps open much more quickly than the HD on my MacPro despite the extra processing power in the Pro. My next planned update for the MacPro is an SSD for the OS and apps.
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Post by Linnofil »

SSD really is great. Probably greater than you think! ;) Despite the cost, I actually think it's a very cost effective investment. I have tested an SSD in my ReadyNAS Duo and it's a big difference. In my Duo the performance was better with the fan still connected. So not fully silent, but the music is really good. My plan right now is to have one NAS with a 256 GB SSD (for about $610/£375/€445 today in Sweden) and a separate NAS with all the music that won't fit the SSD.
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Post by stunta »

Too bad my first post on these forums has to go like this, but it is just simply impossible that an SSD can make a difference in sound versus HDD. Unless your server is the same room as your music system and the disc is making noise.

The DS receives the data stream over the network and has a small buffer it reads from. It does not read directly from the storage device. All data is transferred over reliable TCP which ensures no data is lost.

An SSD stores the same binary data as a hard drive. That same binary data is transferred reliably over TCP to the DS which reads only from its own buffer.

Don't take my word for it. If you have a friend who has good experience in the software industry, talk to him or her.
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Post by lejonklou »

Hi Stunta and welcome here!

I don't think you will be getting any answer to your post, because contributors on this forum are way past the discussion you're bringing up. Put simply, if there is an obvious difference to our ears, we work hard to find the reason for it. We don't say "That's impossible", simply because that doesn't lead us anywhere.

We have quite a bunch of engineers among our members on the forum, so there is certainly no lack of technical knowledge to support us in our quest.

I don't wish to see any further debates between "that's impossible" and "just listen for yourself" on this forum and I will add this to the forum rules.

Please note that it's always possible to ask for an explanation. Such as "Do you have any theory that could explain the results you're getting?".
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Post by Precisionaudio »

lejonklou,
You greeted this peron with welcome but didn't welcome his valuable contribution ????
All findings valid or otherwise need questioning.
I suspect that Stunta is correct but would be happy to be proven otherwise.
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Post by lejonklou »

Precisionaudio,

this forum is not about questioning all findings. It's about HiFi, the science and art of maximising our enjoyment of recorded music.

On this forum, we judge performance with the Tune Method. What people report as being better means 'better when evaluated with the Tune Method'.

If someone shares their experience with how to improve their HiFi, we treat the person with respect and his findings with curiosity. Improving further, digging deeper and understanding the mechanisms is what this forum is for. Instead of saying 'That's impossible', we ask Why? and How?

Anyone who understands and shares our view of what 'better' means is welcome here. This is the key to all our discussions.
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Post by christian »

Yeasterday I installed an Kingston SSD in my ReadyNas Duo instead of the two Sata drives that I had previously. The improvement is very obvious. I feel as if a curtain suddenly was removed between me and the music. Price was about Euro 400 and I think this was one of my most priceworthy upgrades ever. I would recommend others to try this.
Kind regards
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Post by ThomasOK »

Precisionaudio wrote:lejonklou,
You greeted this peron with welcome but didn't welcome his valuable contribution ????
All findings valid or otherwise need questioning.
I suspect that Stunta is correct but would be happy to be proven otherwise.
On this forum his contribution is not valuable because it is not based on personal experience. We are interested in what people hear and what they find makes their music more (or less) enjoyable.

Over the millennia science has proven any number of previously held beliefs to be incorrect including many, many that were previously determined scientifically to be fact. Was the earth ever flat, was it ever the center of the universe, was the atom or the electron ever the smallest particle of matter, is matter really any more than condensed energy? No matter how much you want to believe in scientific certainties it has to be noted that science has to be interpreted by human minds with all their limitations and biases (cultural and otherwise) and experienced by limited human senses (how much of the ultraviolet spectrum can we perceive directly). We use sophisticated machines to enhance our senses but that is the best we can do - enhance them. We are still the ones who have to do the sensing (until we develop machines that are more sophisticated and sensitive than we are - and watch out if we do! The Matrix, anyone?).

So if you want to be proven right or wrong: try it yourself. The results of that personal trial is what we value here - whether you experience a musical (tuneful) improvement or not. While any particular musical finding might be questioned by another with a different finding I think you will find that these differing views are treated with respect even while being questioned. This makes this forum a much more civil one than many where there are endless arguments about whether different cables can sound different. We will question all kinds of findings and others will try similar things to verify or dispute for themselves what has been stated. But the only findings we feel are valid are those based on PERSONAL experience using the tune method of evaluation.
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Post by ThomasOK »

christian wrote:Yeasterday I installed an Kingston SSD in my ReadyNas Duo instead of the two Sata drives that I had previously. The improvement is very obvious. I feel as if a curtain suddenly was removed between me and the music. Price was about Euro 400 and I think this was one of my most priceworthy upgrades ever. I would recommend others to try this.
Interesting to hear, this certainly sounds promising. By the way my post about the pricing of SSDs was not meant as a comment on their value one way or the other - more a comment on how expensive really large capacities are at the moment. A lot of people have have gone over to computer stored audio in part because of the inexpensive availability of large capacity HDs. Switching over to SSDs will obviously change this equation a bit in the present, especially for those who value capacity over quality (I have 10,000 CDs on my computer!?). For those who value musical quality above all else the cost of current SSDs is little compared to the investment in a DS based system. (Of course those who value musical quality above all else still mainly use vinyl!!! :wink: )

According to some other reading I've been doing, there is good news in that a new generation of SSDs is just coming out from Intel, SandForce and others which are smaller, faster, more reliable and less expensive - as is usual in the computer industry. It seems like we may have another halving of price by sometime in 2011. This certainly won't hurt the continued move from HDs to SSDs which, of course, will further reduce prices.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Even Einstein got things wrong. He had to modify his 'General Theory of Relativity', but made an incorrect assumption in the process. He later admitted being wrong, following Hubbel's discovery.

In Physics, someone comes along with a test that suggests an element of a theory is valid, thereby making that theory more likely to be true than the others, but it's still just a theory - only more likely to be correct. And due to the Uncertainty Principle, we can only disprove theories, never entirely prove one, no matter how many tests validate it. But then maybe that too will be dis-proven :roll:
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Post by Per A »

Well my QNap T109 sounded very good tonight with The Rolling Stones humming along.

I am fascinated by the way the versions of software for the DS have got better since Bute over to Cara.

:)
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Post by Azazello »

Removed three posts. Please stick to the subject and to the rules. If someone fails doing this, please don't start another lengthy discussion - it will just be removed anyway. Just send me a PM.

/Az
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Post by SaltyDog »

How long does it take to listen between changing the drives in the NAS?

Is it possible to have a HDD and a SSD in the same NAS and choose which drive supplies the data? That would be good for comparisons.

Could it be noise introduced from HDD? And if so would just one SSD still be better? I think if improvements could be achieved, that the backup on the cost effective storage makes sense. That is play off SSD with raid for safety to HDD.

What are the thoughts on digital data sources making a difference IF there is no electro-magnetic difference in the transmission of the data? In other words would all of this come down electricity and magnetism. The data will be the data or computer files just would not be dependable. Anything in the area has a possibility of affecting the molecules in the environment we use to listen. This moving of molecules is sound. So that the data can not be changing is the basis of the statements, with which I agree. The sound and the musicality of the sound is going to change with any electro-magnetic change in the environment. What changes we can detect and which are for the better........well. That's where this forum is so valuable to me. I don't have the time and money to try it all for myself.

I have my system with most the hifi on a dedicated 230V spur. The exceptions are the DirecTV box is on 115V and connected to the KK by Linn Blacks, and the Lingo is plugged into 115V only when the LP12 is being used (very rarely) through the karin (230V) into the KK. The Karin stays connected to the power. So I end up with only the interconnects from the TV connected to KK having anything to do with 115V on the hifi side. The computer gear is run on the same spur as the TV. There is then the ethernet connection to the KDS. I have tried to keep separation between computer and hifi. So not totally isolated, but pretty good. How much of all of this ties together unknown, but it has to have some affect. Can I hear it? Is it worth bothering with? Well this is where our collective experience and observations based on one method of evaluation can add to everyone's knowledge base.

Stunta, if you are reading this, please don't confuse the strict moderation of the core principles of this forum as being rude or personally dismissive. The folks here are for the most part (just not using ALL because it is absolute and I am giving weight to my forgetting the useless negatives in life) very considerate, polite and willing to take up just about any subject keeping in line with the core principles. Most are willing to talk about off the deep end stuff, just not on this public forum.

I'm not from Missouri (the show me state), but I can be skeptical about some of the claims seen on the internet. It always comes down to each of us listening to our gear in our place. Some of each of our experience comes from our unique conditions, but some of it ties together with the equipment we use in the common goal of better tune dem.

Just like it is impossible to always know someone's intentions. It is possible to evaluate their approach and how we relate to that. But that may not be their intentions at all. It is a waste of time and of no value to argue the experience, when they have already told us what it is. Questioning (that's what the rolly eyes are good for IMHO) the experience is good, but stating it is not their experience...........well. Ya know whatamean?

I recognize and enjoy your enthusiasm for music. Please stick around and help keep this a win win for all of us.
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Post by sommerfee »

SaltyDog wrote:How long does it take to listen between changing the drives in the NAS?
Quite a long time of course, but if you do not compare them directly but using a reference player (e.g. Unidisk 1.1) instead you should be able to get valid results anyway.

BTW: I recently changed the HD in my QNAP TS-109 NAS, from Seagate Barracuda ES2 (1T) to Seagate Barracuda Green (2T). This was for two reasons: 1) 1T was not enough anymore 2) The Barracuda ES2 was too noisy for me anyway so I wanted a drive with lower RPM. (ES2 = 7200RPM, Green = 5900 RPM)

So this change was not because of sound issues, and I did not expect any change in sound. But there definitely was. While using the ES2 my Sneaky DS was quite on par with my Unidisk, but the Green HD was an unexpected step forward.

In Germany we are able to plug in the power plug in both directions, so for optimizing the system we can either measure or listen what direction is best. (Both methods should give the same result.) Measuring means identifying the lower AC voltage between device and earth while the device is powered on but not directly connected to earth. However, the measured voltages are different when using the ES2 or the Green HD.

So maybe the main point is earthing? (Unfortunately my QNAP is not earthed using the power cord, and does not offer external earthing.)
Is it possible to have a HDD and a SSD in the same NAS and choose which drive supplies the data? That would be good for comparisons.
I think this is a very good idea. When getting the same result from HDD and SDD, but a different result than a "only HDD" or "only SSD" solution, we know that it's not the HD itself changing the tune, but the HD has changed the whole hifi environment in a way that changes the tune.
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Post by Nicolav »

Hi Sommerfee,
very intersting, so you have found the barracuda LP more musical than ES2? This is interesting also because the LP series is half the cost of ES2...
From my experience, 7002.11 series are less musical than ES2.
I'ave not yet tryed LP's with my music library so this will be my netx test.
:wink:
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Post by Linnofil »

This weekend I have bought and tested a Crucial RealSSD 64 GB SSD in my ReadyNAS Duo. It was awful. It was clearly worse than my ES.2 HDD. My plan was to buy a small SSD first and test before commiting to buy a bigger one. Well, now I know what not to buy! This SSD will end up in my PC, so it's not a total waste.

I wonder if all discs with Marvel chipset is crap? Unfortunately Intel's latest 510 serie drives are based on the Marvel chipset aswell. Maybe it is how it interacts with the Duo NAS? I know that one guy at the Swedish forum is reporting good results with a custom made mediaserver based on this drive.

When I tested a Intel G2 (that was really good) I tried to expand the space with a USB drive connected to the NAS and manipulated Twonky to share from the USB drive. But this made most of the SSD advantage go away. That is why I want to have a separate NAS for the rest of my FLAC files.
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Post by stunta »

Thanks Salty for being the voice of unbiased reason. I must admit, I can get carried away when I know something as a fact and it is being denied. I am still not very happy with the way posts were deleted as if I used profanity or personally insulted people. In one of the deleted posts, i even clarified my intentions stating that I was only trying to help since I thought people were spending money on the wrong things. But I don't own these forums.

I think you make some good points about the environment, Salty. So I ask this to folks here who say SSD makes a difference - is your NAS in the same room or close to your audio equipment? Before spending on the SSD, it might be worthwhile to consider isolating your hifi from your music storage.

I did try listening off of my SSD drive just out of curiousity and could not tell a difference. My NAS and PC are both upstairs and my hi-fi is downstairs in my living room.

This post is likely to get deleted soon as well, so with this I say goodbye and good luck. I will leave you with this -

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread. ... #pid112555
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Post by lejonklou »

I applaud the fact that you made a comparison, Stunta. That you couldn't detect any difference doesn't mean there isn't one, however. There are three possibilites: Either there is no difference, there is one but you were unable to detect it, or your system doesn't reveal it.

In my experience, the most common scenario is a combination of the last two. I've installed a lot of systems where small-ish differences, such as the physical support for audio components, power cords, tightness of drive units etc, have been difficult or even impossible to detect. Once the system has been really well tuned, the very same details have however appeared as obvious. The better the system performs, the more it will reveal differences that were previously difficult to detect.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to advertise my installation services, because I don't have enough time for them and often decline due to lack of time.

If we go back to the differences in performance caused by the network components, I ask you to take a more humble stance. It is well known that the differences are not due to the data delivered to the DS player. What is more likely is the fact that the network carries signals outside of the information carrying frequencies, both higher and lower. The HiFi company Hegel recently measured a bunch of different USB cables, that they in listening tests found to differ in sound quality. All of the cables transmitted the information well enough for their DAC to receive it without errors, but they found significant changes in the transmission of radio frequencies (RF) from the source to the DAC. The amount and type of RF correlated with their listening experiences.

Naim is another company who has (in contrary to Linn) been quite open with their discoveries in this area and the reason why they've chosen to have integrated storage in their network players is because they want to have control over those parts, to optimise performance.

If you've been active in the HiFi scene for some time, you can probably recall a number of previous disputes, similar to this one. Digital audio was perfect when it entered the scene, and very few had heard of jitter. Still today there are a lot of engineers out there who doubt the importance of jitter, as the measured impact on distortion figures can be very small. To them, there is no quality to be gained from streaming either (the concept of "pulling" data, as opposed to "pushing"), as it can easily be shown that a clean CD is possible to read with zero errors. Power supplies is another hot potato, you didn't fall for the clever marketing of Dynamik, did you? There are quite a few qualified hardware designers that can explain to you how a power supply, unless completely incorrectly designed, can't possibly have any impact on the work done by any of the parts in a DS player. There are many similar examples of controversy.

As I think we're sticking to the subject pretty well, I don't think the moderators will be objecting. But I hope you understand that this is a forum where we adopt an attitude of curiosity and humbleness for what our ears tell us. As someone once said; if it sounds better, it is better. And by using the Tune Method, we are able to make comparisons that are valid to all of us, rather than tossing subjective opinions at eachother.

Linnofil: Thanks for the report, although it was a disappointment! I haven't yet made any experiments with SSD and prefer to wait until clear recommendations are being presented here. My experiences with different HDD's and USB storage on the same NAS has convinced me that this is an area well worth optimising.
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Post by Azazello »

stunta wrote:I am still not very happy with the way posts were deleted as if I used profanity or personally insulted people. In one of the deleted posts.
Stunta,

You only insulted our understanding of electronics, but for that we will forgive you. ;)

Please understand that the moderation of this forum is a result of a lot of experience from other discussion boards. The "That is impossible! - No it's not! - discussion" has destroyed so many threads in other forums so we decided to make this place different. If you have further issues about the moderation, please take them in the "forum issues" thread in the Lejonklou forum, not here.

Stick around, you might see the point! :D

/Az
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Post by hcl »

I just wanted to mention that Dustin (Swedish computer and gadget, mail order distributor) now offer the Intel G3 SSD drives (mentioned in the beginning of this thread) for a not that in-attractive price (about 225 euro).

LINK: INTEL 320 SERIES 2.5" 160GB SSD SATA/300 MLC 25NM

Anyone tried this G3 version?
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Post by uksteve22 »

A bit of a warning......I bought an new and sealed OCZ SSD a couple of years back off ebay.
It failed after 4 months.
OCZ refused to honour warranty as I didn't buy from an authorised dealer.
£250 down the drain.
So I always check warranty terms now.
Another problem I've had is with Seagate HD RMA's.....if you've bought an OEM drive they will not deal with you, rather point you back to original supplier. Whereas Western Digital don't seem to make that distinction and deal with you direct.
Just makes it a whole lot easier to get replacements.
Benchmark DAC, Kairn, Silvers, C3200/D, K600, Espeks
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Post by artikulate »

Ok well my curiosity got the best of me so I bought a generation 3 intel 160 g ssd. The result is somewhat questionable because all variables did not remain consistent. I compared listening to the same songs from my ripnas that uses hdd and from the ssd plugged into a docking bay that connects to my computer via esata. One would have thought that perhaps the more complicated and noisy environment of the computer compared to the ripnas would negatively affect the sound. However, to my surprise and I don't pretend to understand how, music playing from the ssd was much easier to follow, sounded more fluid and effortless and clearer. The difference was very obvious to me within seconds. Since my ripnas is giving me problems at the moment I will be building my own server using hdds for storage but an ssd to actually play the music from. Any theories as to why some of us are reporting this result.

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