At the family gathering this week, there was a hand cranked music box mechanism. What I'm talking about is the innards of an old fashioned music box - the kind you open the lid and then it plays a tune. This particular one was not spring driven like most. It had a tiny crank instead. The tune (a bicycle built for two) plays when the raised spots on the rotated drum lifts and releases the fingers cut in the metal strip.
Hope you have an idea of what I'm talking about now.
Anyway, if you hold the thing in your hand you can barely hear a very tinny sound. But if you hold this on a piece of wood the sound is transformed. It is much louder and tuneful.
I don't have the where with all to test my thought myself. I wonder if this little device could be used to help sort out the better sounding woods in plinths, shelves, speaker cabinets, and even maple blocks ;).
Sort of a preview of the wood's characteristics.
Possibly tuning forks or the electronic tuners for piano or guitar would work too.
Anyway just a thought. Anyone have any comments?
A thought for testing different woods for Tune
Moderator: Staff
Just had another thought.
Could tuning forks be used to induce a known frequency into a material, then use an electronic tuner to determine which material transmits the frequency with the least difference?
ChrisH have you got methods you'd care to share? Or do you use any that you want to keep secret? Obviously the visual appeal is factored in as all the ones I've seen are gorgeous. Have any ended up sounding bad. I haven't heard anyone complain, but thought maybe like a photographer some are never moved along to the consumer. Anyway to know the sound quality before building out the TT?
Could tuning forks be used to induce a known frequency into a material, then use an electronic tuner to determine which material transmits the frequency with the least difference?
ChrisH have you got methods you'd care to share? Or do you use any that you want to keep secret? Obviously the visual appeal is factored in as all the ones I've seen are gorgeous. Have any ended up sounding bad. I haven't heard anyone complain, but thought maybe like a photographer some are never moved along to the consumer. Anyway to know the sound quality before building out the TT?
I have a couple of thoughts on these questions. First off I have to say that I feel actual measurements made by exciting the wood in some manner and measuring the results appears to be useless in determining musical performance. I say this because one of my customers tried this. He has been playing around with building his own compact speakers for a few years (and is still disappointed he hasn't been able to make something outperform a Katan). When I told him about my listening tests on plinths he wondered if there would be a way to measure them. I was interested too so I lent him a number of plinths (I believe 5 or 6) which he tested. He used a transducer attached to the plinth to excite it with sonic waveforms and spectrum analyzed the results picked up by an accelerometer. After days of testing the plinths on all sides he was forced to conclude that there was nothing in the measured results that correlated with the musical performance. He even stated that there was very little in the measurements, even of the most different plinths, that would lead one to expect any musical differences. So unless someone comes up with a different and more effective way of measuring them it doesn't seem like measurements will help.
The idea of putting the works of a music box on the plinth wood is interesting. I can see how it might give you a correlation with the musical quality if you tried it on enough plinths. At this point the closest thing we have to a way to asses the musical quality without putting the LP12 works in the plinth is by the tone the plinth makes when picked up and tapped. I hold up the plinth by resting one of the corner braces on a finger so the plinth hangs diagonally. I then tap one of the long sides to see what kind of tone it makes. Over time I believe that I have come to where I can tell approximately how musical a plinth will sound by listening to this tap tone. But it has taken lots of listening to LP12s assembled on the plinths and trying the tap tone on all these to be able to recognize what makes the best plinths. Early on some that were thought to have a good tap tone turned out to not be as good as others with a different tap tone.
After a fair bit of testing, I now find that the musical performance of a complete table and plinth reflects what I hear in the tap tones. In a nutshell here is what I look for in the tap tone of a plinth.
1) It should have a harmonically pleasing tone. This is very important as plinths that tap harsh or dead tend to affect the music that way.
2) It should have good frequency balance and extension. Plinths that tap light have little bass power and definition, plinths that tap muted sound soft on the highs and less musically clear.
3) The harmonics should not ring on too long or be too quickly damped. These characteristics also carry over to the musical performance of the complete turntable.
This was one of the early teasers: one of the early plinths I tested had a very harmonic tone but with a quite long ring or decay. Chris and I both thought it would be a winner but it was not in the same league with the Movingui. While it definitely sounded much better than the Afromosia plinth it replaced, compared to the best it had a somewhat forward sound in the upper mids and lower highs. This made it sound more artificially detailed but the subtlety of notes in that range was harder to hear.
I have tried to see if there were other things that correlate with better sounding plinths: hardness of the wood, density, weight, grain type, etc. but so far have found almost no correlation with most of them. (It does appear that, on average, grains that are totally linear are not quite as good as the more varied grains but there is still too much variation within grain types to use that as a method to choose.) Like so many things in the pursuit of quality music reproduction, testing by listening and being able to experience a number of alternatives is the only real way to find what works and what doesn't.
The idea of putting the works of a music box on the plinth wood is interesting. I can see how it might give you a correlation with the musical quality if you tried it on enough plinths. At this point the closest thing we have to a way to asses the musical quality without putting the LP12 works in the plinth is by the tone the plinth makes when picked up and tapped. I hold up the plinth by resting one of the corner braces on a finger so the plinth hangs diagonally. I then tap one of the long sides to see what kind of tone it makes. Over time I believe that I have come to where I can tell approximately how musical a plinth will sound by listening to this tap tone. But it has taken lots of listening to LP12s assembled on the plinths and trying the tap tone on all these to be able to recognize what makes the best plinths. Early on some that were thought to have a good tap tone turned out to not be as good as others with a different tap tone.
After a fair bit of testing, I now find that the musical performance of a complete table and plinth reflects what I hear in the tap tones. In a nutshell here is what I look for in the tap tone of a plinth.
1) It should have a harmonically pleasing tone. This is very important as plinths that tap harsh or dead tend to affect the music that way.
2) It should have good frequency balance and extension. Plinths that tap light have little bass power and definition, plinths that tap muted sound soft on the highs and less musically clear.
3) The harmonics should not ring on too long or be too quickly damped. These characteristics also carry over to the musical performance of the complete turntable.
This was one of the early teasers: one of the early plinths I tested had a very harmonic tone but with a quite long ring or decay. Chris and I both thought it would be a winner but it was not in the same league with the Movingui. While it definitely sounded much better than the Afromosia plinth it replaced, compared to the best it had a somewhat forward sound in the upper mids and lower highs. This made it sound more artificially detailed but the subtlety of notes in that range was harder to hear.
I have tried to see if there were other things that correlate with better sounding plinths: hardness of the wood, density, weight, grain type, etc. but so far have found almost no correlation with most of them. (It does appear that, on average, grains that are totally linear are not quite as good as the more varied grains but there is still too much variation within grain types to use that as a method to choose.) Like so many things in the pursuit of quality music reproduction, testing by listening and being able to experience a number of alternatives is the only real way to find what works and what doesn't.
-
monkeydevil
- Active Member
- Posts: 77
- Joined: 2007-01-31 18:25
- Location: Stockholm
-
Tony Tune-age
- Very active member
- Posts: 1589
- Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
- Location: United States
Back in the day, the "Tap Tone" method was used when upgrading to the original Linn Trampolin. My Linn representative took off the original pressed board bottom and conducted a Tap Tone test, then compared how it sounded with the Trampolin using the Tap Tone test. Needless to say, the Trampolin sounded much better than the original board. And when I told people about this testing process, they thought I was crazy 
.
In the end, it was a very informative testing process, and the final sonic result of my turntable reflected the Tap Tone test...exactly :!: Bass notes were more detailed with the Trampolin, especially the kick drum. The correlation between the Tap Tone test, and final result was spot on :!: And at the the time, I thought the Trampolin was a great improvement to the Sondek at a very reasonable cost :!:
Not certain if this testing method will be similar with audio racks, because of the decoupling and isolation process...but ThomasOK is a good person to find out for sure 8) .
. In the end, it was a very informative testing process, and the final sonic result of my turntable reflected the Tap Tone test...exactly :!: Bass notes were more detailed with the Trampolin, especially the kick drum. The correlation between the Tap Tone test, and final result was spot on :!: And at the the time, I thought the Trampolin was a great improvement to the Sondek at a very reasonable cost :!:
Not certain if this testing method will be similar with audio racks, because of the decoupling and isolation process...but ThomasOK is a good person to find out for sure 8) .
Last edited by Tony Tune-age on 2011-02-11 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
Tony Tune-age
I'm not sure if it would apply to the Harmoni shelves but I believe it might. My understanding is that Anders felt a shelf material with a harmonious tone was an important part of a good sounding rack. I was also told that while designing the Mimer he wasn't happy with the sound of the aluminum shelf until it was combined with solid hardwood. I don't have shelves of the three materials Anders supplies but I understand he has compared Birch to Cherry and found the Birch a bit more tuneful.monkeydevil wrote:Thanks thomasok, this was very interesting to read.
Do you think the same regarding tap tones would apply to shelves as well? Such as the harmoni rack.
I am actually working on that idea here. As I mentioned in the Harmonihyllan thread, at Anders suggestion I am going to try having the wood shelves made in the US. Since my plinth test have found Movingui, Cocobolo and Maple to be the most musical, and since Maple is plentiful in the US, I have chosen to have the first batch of shelves made of Maple. Once I get these I will be able to compare them to the Birch and my hope is that they are at least as good. Since Maple takes stain well I will also be able to have attractive black shelves made from it. The supplier I am talking with can also supply Cherry so I will be able to offer the main three options Anders does, light, medium and black woods (white wood isn't that popular in the US yet). If my findings with plinths hold the Maple should be a more musical performer than Cherry or Black Ash. Of course, I'll only know for sure once I have tried them. So now it all waits until sometime in March when I can get the first batch of Maple shelves.
Thomas, if you can include more types, I suggest to have a test
with Liriodendron Tulipifera (American whitewood, tulip wood).
Or have at least a knock test if you come across a piece of this wood.
You have plenty of this wood over there, while here in Europe it is
seldomly available. I made most of my hifi furniture from this because
of its superiour sound. (And finally planted a tree in my garden -
too beautiful to be cut, though.)
with Liriodendron Tulipifera (American whitewood, tulip wood).
Or have at least a knock test if you come across a piece of this wood.
You have plenty of this wood over there, while here in Europe it is
seldomly available. I made most of my hifi furniture from this because
of its superiour sound. (And finally planted a tree in my garden -
too beautiful to be cut, though.)
Interesting, I have heard of Tulip wood and believe I have seen some articles made of it. From what little I have read the area where I live is part of the range where it grows well in the US so it should be available here. I will check with Chris Harban and see if he has ever worked with it.
I don't know how expensive Tulip wood is, but the more exotic woods like Cocobolo and Movingui would probably make for a much more expensive shelf both due to the costs of the wood itself and the need to find more specialized people to make the shelves. While someone like Chris could make shelves like this they would cost several times what a larger manufacturer can make Maple or Cherry shelves for. Because of this my first goal is to find readily available woods that sound at least as good as those that Anders uses. As I mentioned, I am very hopeful that Maple will be a really good choice. Once I have a few standard woods/finishes worked out I can then experiment with more exotic types and possibly offer them as custom options. One step at a time. :D
I don't know how expensive Tulip wood is, but the more exotic woods like Cocobolo and Movingui would probably make for a much more expensive shelf both due to the costs of the wood itself and the need to find more specialized people to make the shelves. While someone like Chris could make shelves like this they would cost several times what a larger manufacturer can make Maple or Cherry shelves for. Because of this my first goal is to find readily available woods that sound at least as good as those that Anders uses. As I mentioned, I am very hopeful that Maple will be a really good choice. Once I have a few standard woods/finishes worked out I can then experiment with more exotic types and possibly offer them as custom options. One step at a time. :D
Tulip wood should be pretty standard in the US. It is just not as
well known in the furniture industry because it is regarded as
less 'precious' and not as showy as the common maple or beech
or oak &c.. Price should be below those, it is easy to work with,
and in both respects there's no comparison to the exotic woods.
well known in the furniture industry because it is regarded as
less 'precious' and not as showy as the common maple or beech
or oak &c.. Price should be below those, it is easy to work with,
and in both respects there's no comparison to the exotic woods.