DS firmware - what is the lastest on the most musical one?

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Nicolav
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Post by Nicolav »

SaltyDog wrote:Looking though this post I don't see any comments regarding 4.7.2 for KDS.

Has anyone else tried this?
Hi Salty, I have to try tonight and I'll tell you my impression.
I need 4.9.1 for KDS to complete my comparation but my file is corrupt. Can you send a copy please?

Thank you!
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Post by SaltyDog »

Sorry, I don't have it.

PM Sommerfee. He helped me out with 4.7.2 and said he has most of them and to PM him if I wanted any others.

I used to be better at making sure I got a copy of each firmware. Something I need to work on.
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Post by Music Lover »

I have most KDS firmwares, including 4.9.1
Please send a PM with your email and I send you the file.

On the other hand I don't have 4.7.2 ;-)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by SaltyDog »

ML PM me your email. I'll shoot it right over.
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Post by Nicolav »

SaltyDog wrote:ML PM me your email. I'll shoot it right over.
Hi Saltydog,
simoncn of Linn forum had already sent my a copy.

Thank you!
Nicola
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Post by Nicolav »

Saltydog, 4.7.2 beta is very very good to my ears, one of the best.
The comparation of these firmware is not trivial: each of them has its particular strengths musically. But is very difficult to say this is the best of all.

Among those I heard, the best for me in order of preference are:
4.9.1 beta
4.7.2 beta
4.1.10
4.9.2 beta
4.3.3
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Post by SaltyDog »

Have you tried jRiver?

I am not satisfied without it.
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Post by Music Lover »

Nicolav wrote: The comparation of these firmware is not trivial: each of them has its particular strengths musically.
Interesting, please elaborate!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

I am thankful for the collective effort that is being done to bring order to the performance related mess of the firmware versions. I can't help thinking that the ranking from worst to best ought to follow the order of the numbers, but I know that is sadly not the case.

Several people have given 4.1.10 thumbs up. Could you give 4.7.2 Beta and 4.9.1 Beta a try and see if you agree or disagree with Nicolav's rating?

If we can agree on one single version that is best (I agree with Nicolav that different versions can have different strengths, but it's usually possible to pick an overall winner), it becomes much easier for us to judge future versions. At the moment most of us have their own reference, which prevents us from quickly sharing our findings in a meaningful way.

Hasn't anyone more than Saltydog tried jRiver? I would welcome more reports on that.
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Post by SaltyDog »

There is much to learn as far as all this goes.

One of the things I know is that getting the 16/44.1 fed to the DS in 24/44.1 is the way forward.

Another thing I know is that I am not the one to explain why the things that work work or how they work.

I just got clued into that the Catwalk Pugin will allow jRiver to use an audio output mode called catwalk null output. I had been using the jRiver recommended WASAPI-event style.

Although Catwalk makes no mention of working with jRiver v17 (v16 is the latest one mentioned) one doesn't need Catwalk to get the DS to play when using Win7 and WASAPI-event style. Prior to jRiver v17 and Win7 IIRC one needed Catwalk to get the music to the DS. I haven't found any mention of the Catwalk null output in any documents.

I believe this is another huge step forward. I will keep you informed.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I haven't been posting on this thread as I haven't really had time to experiment with the different updates and now I don't have a DS as I sold my Majik and have used the funds elsewhere for now. I do plan on getting another DS in the future but it will likely be at least an Akurate and probably a while yet. In the meantime I am all analog with the LP12 and Kremlin as my sources!

But I wanted to say that I was out at Saltydog's place a few weekends ago and did spend some time listening to and tweaking his system. He did play a couple of tracks for me going from his NAS with Twonky serving and Kinski controlling vs. the same files from the NAS but served and controlled via JRiver. Especially on one vocal group recording (where I was really paying attention) I did find the music as handled by the JRiver software to be more musical and natural sounding. I can't explain it, and I really only had time to do a couple of A/Bs, but I really did enjoy the music more this way. I don't believe I've ever heard digitally encoded music sound as good as on his system. It is something I now feel I will have to explore once I have a DS up and running in the house again. Most of the time I was there Debbie and I spent on Saltydog's boat, the Salty Dog, and even with a day of rain in there (which is when Salty and I went to his house and played with the Hi-FI) we had a great time. Thanks, Salty, for the invite.
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Post by hcl »

It would be interesting to know how the NAS installation is implemented (NAS type, discs used, cables (direction checked, shielding config.), positioning of NAS and switch, electrical installation etc.).

Maybe Salty' can fill in here?
ThomasOK wrote:I haven't been posting on this thread as I haven't really had time to experiment with the different updates and now I don't have a DS as I sold my Majik and have used the funds elsewhere for now. I do plan on getting another DS in the future but it will likely be at least an Akurate and probably a while yet. In the meantime I am all analog with the LP12 and Kremlin as my sources!

But I wanted to say that I was out at Saltydog's place a few weekends ago and did spend some time listening to and tweaking his system. He did play a couple of tracks for me going from his NAS with Twonky serving and Kinski controlling vs. the same files from the NAS but served and controlled via JRiver. Especially on one vocal group recording (where I was really paying attention) I did find the music as handled by the JRiver software to be more musical and natural sounding. I can't explain it, and I really only had time to do a couple of A/Bs, but I really did enjoy the music more this way. I don't believe I've ever heard digitally encoded music sound as good as on his system. It is something I now feel I will have to explore once I have a DS up and running in the house again. Most of the time I was there Debbie and I spent on Saltydog's boat, the Salty Dog, and even with a day of rain in there (which is when Salty and I went to his house and played with the Hi-FI) we had a great time. Thanks, Salty, for the invite.
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Post by hcl »

lejonklou wrote:I am thankful for the collective effort that is being done to bring order to the performance related mess of the firmware versions. I can't help thinking that the ranking from worst to best ought to follow the order of the numbers, but I know that is sadly not the case.

Several people have given 4.1.10 thumbs up. Could you give 4.7.2 Beta and 4.9.1 Beta a try and see if you agree or disagree with Nicolav's rating?

If we can agree on one single version that is best (I agree with Nicolav that different versions can have different strengths, but it's usually possible to pick an overall winner), it becomes much easier for us to judge future versions. At the moment most of us have their own reference, which prevents us from quickly sharing our findings in a meaningful way.

Hasn't anyone more than Saltydog tried jRiver? I would welcome more reports on that.
Compared 4.7.2 v.s. 4.1.10 and 4.1.10 comfortably on top still

I found 4.7.2 also to be quite good, but lacking the no boundary communication feature of 4.1.10 which I feel makes me hear the music from inside of my body (for lacking a better way of describing it). 4.1.10 makes the music flow easily, I very rarely reflect of the sound at all.
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Post by SaltyDog »

Nothing in the NAS setup has ever been looked into as far as comparing cabeles, directions and what not. The basement where it all resides is out of sight and out of mind.

I have a QNap 409 Tubo Pro.

1TB x 3. 2 are Seagate Barracuda Enterprise grade. The other is a "standard Seagate"

There is a switch, The NAS and PC stuff electrical circuit is 110V and separate from the HiFi which is on a dedicated 230V circuit.
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Post by hcl »

SaltyDog wrote:Nothing in the NAS setup has ever been looked into as far as comparing cabeles, directions and what not. The basement where it all resides is out of sight and out of mind.

I have a QNap 409 Tubo Pro.

1TB x 3. 2 are Seagate Barracuda Enterprise grade. The other is a "standard Seagate"

There is a switch, The NAS and PC stuff electrical circuit is 110V and separate from the HiFi which is on a dedicated 230V circuit.
Where does J-River come in?
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Post by SaltyDog »

jRiver is on an always on PC that is pointed to the musiic files on the NAS.

I THINK but do not know for sure, that jRiver is sending the music files to the DS in 24-bit 44.1 WAV. I know the front panel of the KDS shows 24/44.1. Kinsky showed for only last night for some reason that the stream was 24/44.1 WAV. Kinsky never displayed any streaming info before or since last night for some reason.

By the way 4.9.3 is something to check out. (Insert big smile)
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Post by SaltyDog »

A Big Bold statement from your buddy SaltyDog.

I am very pleased with 4.9.3 - jRiver - Catwalk Null Output!

Listening to Bread - Anthology album and the music is just so stunning!

Crescendos are so much more an obvious a part of these songs.

I have to say this is the most musical system I've ever had to force myself to leave to go to work.

It might be a hassle to get setup depending on what you have in your setup, but this is so good it would be worth going out to buy a PC and purchasing jRiver and Catwalk. Waiting on a PC to boot and all that other bother will not seem to be a problem. Liken it to waiting in line to get in to a show.

Very much reminds me of putting the KK to work for the 1st time.

Just do it and enjoy!
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Post by hcl »

SaltyDog wrote:A Big Bold statement from your buddy SaltyDog.

I am very pleased with 4.9.3 - jRiver - Catwalk Null Output!

Listening to Bread - Anthology album and the music is just so stunning!

Crescendos are so much more an obvious a part of these songs.

I have to say this is the most musical system I've ever had to force myself to leave to go to work.

It might be a hassle to get setup depending on what you have in your setup, but this is so good it would be worth going out to buy a PC and purchasing jRiver and Catwalk. Waiting on a PC to boot and all that other bother will not seem to be a problem. Liken it to waiting in line to get in to a show.

Very much reminds me of putting the KK to work for the 1st time.

Just do it and enjoy!
What is Null output?
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Post by SaltyDog »

Null output is just part of the name of the choice "Catwalk Null Output".

Why it has this name is beyond me. Sounds kind of strange, but it is what it is.
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Post by Music Lover »

Music Lover wrote: uploaded 4.9.2 to my DS and it's quite good!
More musical than 4.9.1. And better sounding as well.
Update.
Davaar 4.9.3 is not as good as 4.9.2
But Davaar 4.1.10 is BETTER than 4.9.2

So 4.1.10 is the best firmware I tested. A tad undefined especially in the bass but no doubt more musical than my previous best 4.9.2
Still haven't tried 4.7.2

4.1.10 has flow

THANKS hcl for the information!!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by hcl »

Music Lover wrote: ... Davaar 4.1.10 is BETTER than 4.9.2

... A tad undefined especially in the bass but no doubt more musical than my previous best 4.9.2

4.1.10 has flow
I would agree completely with your findings.

As soon as I have the time I will give 4.3.3 a try.
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Post by hcl »

Tried 4.3.3 earlier today, but not in my own system so I can only say that it is good. If I agree that it is better than 4.1.10 remains to be seen. It is not unlikely though.
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Post by Music Lover »

Tried 4.3.3 and it's less musical than 4.1.10
During my 4.7.2 test I found out that the factory default setting was songcast ON!! Normally the default is OFF.

After uploading the firmware I always follow the same procedure:
1/ select "reset to factory default"
2/ select "reboot"
3/ power-cycle the DS manually
4/ play 1-2 minute on another track
5/ compare using Tune Dem

Moving forward, I'm going to modify step 1
select "reset to factory default" and check the settings afterwards.

Retested 4.3.3 and still not as good as 4.1.10, but didn't have time to retest 4.7.2 and the new 4.9.4 (both less musical than 4.1.10 during my first test but was songcast enabled or not??)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by hcl »

Music Lover wrote:Tried 4.3.3 and it's less musical than 4.1.10
During my 4.7.2 test I found out that the factory default setting was songcast ON!! Normally the default is OFF.

After uploading the firmware I always follow the same procedure:
1/ select "reset to factory default"
2/ select "reboot"
3/ power-cycle the DS manually
4/ play 1-2 minute on another track
5/ compare using Tune Dem

Moving forward, I'm going to modify step 1
select "reset to factory default" and check the settings afterwards.

Retested 4.3.3 and still not as good as 4.1.10, but didn't have time to retest 4.7.2 and the new 4.9.4 (both less musical than 4.1.10 during my first test but was songcast enabled or not??)
Great to hear your findings. It is of great value that many people test and report the results for a confident and accurate general opinion.
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Post by SaltyDog »

I've gone back to 4.7.2. While the others have a certain appeal, I keep finding I get more of a sense of the whole song with 4.7.2. Nothing impressive, nothing missing, nothing exaggerated, just the song and that's it. Somehow I think that if I can understand the score then I am hearing what was intended.

Makes me wonder - "Does music need adjectives?"

If the answer is no, then 4.7.2 is it for me.
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