Ferrites

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Charlie1
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Post by Charlie1 » 2011-02-06 20:36

Is it possible that the quality of our own mains supply will interact with the outcome. For example, maybe I try removing the ferrite and don't like the result, but a few months later I have a dedicated spur installed for the hi-fi and try again. This time I prefer the ferrite removed.

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Post by SaltyDog » 2011-02-06 20:57

Great question Charlie1. If there is noise on the spur then a filter makes sense. I don't see how unneeded filter will ever be a benefit. I would think a spur with noisy things like fluorescent lights and microwave ovens would benefit from being isolated by any means. I do not know the answer, just my thoughts.

But as with almost all of this Hi Fi stuff, try it in your system and let your ears decide.

Or

Take the time and effort and set up comparisons while only making one change at a time.

Does anyone know if a 230V spur acts like a balanced connection? Based on 60 Hz and in comparison with 115V as in the US. Answers for other currents, please just specify what the basis is.

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Post by Charlie1 » 2011-02-07 15:58

Thanks Salty. Yes, you're right - best to check in practice. I just thought I'd float the idea and if everyone said 'dont be silly - it has nothing to do with that' then I wouldn't have to bare it in mind.

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Post by Music Lover » 2011-02-08 15:47

Charlie and Salty, thanks for the feedback.

I think I now understand, but for me there is no special way performing tun dem, hence the question.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Post by Charlie1 » 2011-02-08 16:06

Music Lover wrote:for me there is no special way performing tun dem, hence the question.
I think you'll find standing naked in the garden on one leg is pretty special, especially for the neighbors :wink:

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Post by rowlandhills » 2011-02-08 16:42

Charlie1 wrote:
Music Lover wrote:for me there is no special way performing tun dem, hence the question.
I think you'll find standing naked in the garden on one leg is pretty special, especially for the neighbors :wink:
Have you seen ML doing a Tune Dem then, Charlie? :)
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Post by Charlie1 » 2011-02-08 16:57

rowlandhills wrote:Have you seen ML doing a Tune Dem then, Charlie? :)
It is VERY special. I have the YouTube link here somewhere... :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Post by ThomasOK » 2011-02-09 00:42

SaltyDog wrote:Great question Charlie1. If there is noise on the spur then a filter makes sense. I don't see how unneeded filter will ever be a benefit. I would think a spur with noisy things like fluorescent lights and microwave ovens would benefit from being isolated by any means. I do not know the answer, just my thoughts.

But as with almost all of this Hi Fi stuff, try it in your system and let your ears decide.

Or

Take the time and effort and set up comparisons while only making one change at a time.

Does anyone know if a 230V spur acts like a balanced connection? Based on 60 Hz and in comparison with 115V as in the US. Answers for other currents, please just specify what the basis is.
I think there could well be some validity to the AC noise question. I have noticed that even line conditioners that appear to work at the store and in customer systems, like the Isotek units we just started carrying, still don't sound as good at home as my dedicated 230V line.

In answer to the question about 230V, it is a balanced power connection in the US. Since we have a 115V system the way we make a 230V connection is by combining the two 115V phases (one positive and one negative) that come into most US homes into a single 230V line. So if you measure your 230V AC line at the wall or the end of the cable where it enters the component you will find that you have 115V on one wire (Hot) 115V on another wire (Neutral) and Ground. I don't believe it works the same in the UK or Europe. At least if I understand it properly EU power has a 230V wire and a true Neutral plus Ground. I'd like to know if I have this right. If so it would be interesting to know if there is a musical difference between the systems and, if so, which is better?

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Post by Music Lover » 2011-02-11 09:25

Charlie1 wrote:
rowlandhills wrote:Have you seen ML doing a Tune Dem then, Charlie? :)
It is VERY special. I have the YouTube link here somewhere... :shock: :shock: :shock:
Standing on one leg? :wink:
It's all about musical understanding!

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Post by paolo » 2011-02-16 01:09

Just tried to remove the ferrite from my KDS/D and it again strongly confirmed what I'd already experienced two other times in different systems (also different Countries!), respectively with a Unidisk 1.1 and with an Exotik/D.

I have no doub that Linn tunes his Power Supplies with the ferrite in place (as it should be obvious indeed). Removing the ferrite makes the KDS sound different - sweeter? more relaxed? more open? Yes probably - but music gets lost. Bass lines go quite clearly out of time and the music looses his grip. Voices are sweet but changes in inflection, power and phrasing are gone. In a word, this great machine doesn't sound in tune anymore.

With all due respect, I suggest anybody who has been tempted from the appealing change in sound to remove the ferrite to check again and again before definitively decide.

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Last edited by paolo on 2011-02-17 11:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Tony Tune-age » 2011-02-16 13:25

There have been so many other areas of my audio system to focus on, that I haven't given any thought to removing the ferrite(s) at this point :wink: .
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Post by Linnofil » 2011-02-16 23:10

ThomasOK wrote:if I understand it properly EU power has a 230V wire and a true Neutral plus Ground. I'd like to know if I have this right.
Yes, this is correct. All houses and larger apartments also have 3 different phases with 230 V to neutral and ground. There is 400 v between the phases with a 120 degrees phaseshift. This enables a dedicated installer to choose the best one for the hifisystem and move interferring equipement to the other phases. It can be very effective! On the other hand a normal supply to a house in the US can be 2x100A, in Europe (Sweden) it's normal with 3x16-25A. A higher current supply is normally better.

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Post by Lego » 2011-02-17 13:10

SaltyDog wrote:Great question Charlie1. If there is noise on the spur then a filter makes sense. I don't see how unneeded filter will ever be a benefit. I would think a spur with noisy things like fluorescent lights and microwave ovens would benefit from being isolated by any means.
Funny you should mention microwave Salty dog.It reminded me of the dark days when I had a device that could measure noise in the mains I think an am radio could do the same.At my old place with the device plugged in there was loads of crackling(noisy); plugged in the Kairn the noise vanished.
Took the device over to my girlfriends place(had a very good sounding classic and kans) saying wait til you hear how noisy your mains are!!
To my surprise it was silent until I turned her microwave off and it was back to the loud crackling noise .. curious and curiouser
I know that tune

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Post by SaltyDog » 2011-02-19 22:17

I have reinstalled the ferrite in my KK/1/D. I was not as sure of this being better as I was with the KDS. So far I'm going to leave things as is for a while. So KK with and KDS without ferrite. For now.

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Post by SaltyDog » 2011-02-26 04:41

Update. Over the last week there has been some serious listening and evaluation. The results are that the KK/1/D likes ferrite. The KDS not.

The empty glass and full bladder resulting from not being able to tear oneself away from the mystic chair has been repeatably demonstrated.

Both in, both out, and kds out were tested. Just the KK out was not tested.

So there is no question in my mind that ferrite has its place. But one of them is on the shelf. Maple of course.

The bass line is much easier to follow, vocals have more presence, and the tune has that get the body moving thing that is so characteristic of the LP12. The harmonics between instruments is present in a very believable way. Both ferrite in and there was an effort required that is simply not needed with the KDS minus the ferrite.

Both ferrite out has been ruled out as being anywhere close to acceptable. The tune and sound stage were both suffering.

So for now.................. :roll:

Paolo's description is very accurate to what I found with the KK. I am glad he posted his findings as that was the incentive for my revisiting this. It's a shame we can not get together to hear each others systems.

I am sure that I enjoy the music much more with things as they are.

I wonder if the same ferrite is used for 50Hz and 60Hz and if that could make any difference. I'm on 230V 60Hz.

Edited: to add that I am using the latest firmware. Wonder about that having any weight.

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Post by SaltyDog » 2011-03-13 15:36

Latest. I have my speakers back in THAT SPOT. Once it's lost I get frustrated. I know how the system can perform, but it takes a bit of luck to get speakers exactly right by myself. So I get the things just right. Feels like a homecoming. I take the skeets out and set the spikes through the carpet (short shaggy kind that hides all, including previous holes) and the bass is booming. Reinsert ferrite and voila!

Conclusion: Linn is meant to have ferrite.
ATC is not meant to have skeets.
I am not meant to move my speakers again. :wink:

YMMV

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Post by rowlandhills » 2011-03-14 01:19

Salty - Does that apply to KDS as well as KK? In your previous post you suggested that the KK was better with ferrite, but the KDS better without. Not sure if this is contradicted by you most recent post....
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Post by SaltyDog » 2011-03-14 02:04

KK was never better without ferrite.

KDS was better without ferrite when ATCs were on skeets on carpeted suspended wood floor.

KDS is better with ferrite and no skeet under ATCs.

The speaker position is key. Everything is contradictory when it just isn't right. Speakers are in the same place as when they were last on skeets. I use the skeets to adjust speaker position because the spikes make it so difficult.

As always, in my system in my room. YMMV.

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Post by lejonklou » 2011-03-14 08:37

Thank you for the update, Salty!

Your conclusion in this matter matches my experience, which is that with a non-optimised installation, it become difficult to draw the right conclusions. And just like in your example, it doesn't have to be a terrible installation. A detail or two can be enough. Like using Skeets when they shouldn't be used, or having a sub with one setting wrong.

Occasionally I come across tweaks that are attempts to compensate for a problem with a system. Mains filtering and mechanical fixes for the components are common. When I remove these tweaks, the original problem often becomes more obvious - which means the owner did a pretty good job of hiding it. The problem is that when hiding one error with the addition of another error, the music gets lost. When the real problem is found and fixed, the system just sounds much more musical.

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Post by ThomasOK » 2011-03-15 19:56

Very interesting and not surprising conclusion from SaltyDog. I agree with Fredrik and couldn't have said it better. I just had a Stirling example of this this last week with a customer. He is constantly trying to tweak his system as he isn't as happy with the way it plays music as he is with the store's system or my system (which he has heard a few times). His latest attempt was to try an AC conditioner that we sell. He felt it made a worthwhile improvement and was going to buy one but then he wanted to listen to the next up in the line. We didn't have that but the owner brought in one that was two up in the line so he could listen to it. But he also decided to compare his KK to our KK/1/D at the same time. He also brought in his CablePro outlet strip (the same I use and the best I have found).

We did the comparisons in the store with Solos and a new set of 242s with a Majik LP12 and Slipsik 5.1 as a source (our high-level LP12 is out of service waiting for a new Radikal). It took only a little while for it to become obvious to him that the KK/1/D was a much more important improvement than the power conditioners. (I actually felt that the CablePro was more musical than either of the power conditioners but I didn't say anything as I was letting him come to his own conclusions.)

He asked if he could borrow the less expensive power conditioner and the KK/1/D overnight to make sure that the AC quality in his house (which isn't the best) didn't change anything. I said sure and he took them home. He came in early the next day and reported that the KK/1/D was obviously the way to go and he is now saving for those upgrades. He said that when he had the KK/1/D in his system (fully loaded LP12, MDS, Artikulat 350As) that he felt the CablePro was really more musical and natural sounding than the power conditioner. He also said that all the messing around he has been doing with balanced vs. unbalanced cables and the power conditioners were just patches on something he didn't quite like in his system that was fully removed by the KK/1/D. (He does come to the right conclusion given enough time. :) ) Finally, he said that one of the reasons he wanted to try all this was the system in the store, despite being fronted by a lesser LP12, was still somehow not doing things he didn't like that his system was.

So once again, get the fundamentals right and the system will sing. Get them wrong and all these "fixes" don't fix anything - they just cover up the problem while further removing you from the music.

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Post by robird » 2012-10-31 15:51

this topic was the reason for me to join this forum... :-)

after converting a classik movie 05, a unidisk sc and a majik ds i can not recommend this to everyone. every unit just became better under certain conditions.
my equipment runs on a dedicated phase with nothin on it except the hifi stuff. after removing the ferrites it becomes very sensible concerning interferences of mobiles, wireless devices, bad smpsus...
if i sort this out i prefer it without ferrites especially in terms of tune dem. also the reproduction becomes more dramatic but that may not be everyones thing...
otherwise - with a mobile in the room or its psu in the circuit etc. it truely becomes very stressed.

so for ne it is like in many cases - it simply depends...

regards to all and hallo :-)
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Post by usjaz » 2012-11-02 09:30

Removing of ferrite will spill more SMPS noise back to main. Remove ferrites from more than one component allow SMPS noise from different componentsinterfering with each other.

I only remove one ferrite on my source. And source/pre is on Shunynta Hydra 6-Alpha, which besides filter main, helps with filtering noise from ferrite-less source. My amps go straight into upgraded wall socket.

Have you tried power condition unit in your setup? See if it helps with your mobile phone issue? Also your power cord acts as antenna, are they shielded power cables?

robird wrote:this topic was the reason for me to join this forum... :-)

after converting a classik movie 05, a unidisk sc and a majik ds i can not recommend this to everyone. every unit just became better under certain conditions.
my equipment runs on a dedicated phase with nothin on it except the hifi stuff. after removing the ferrites it becomes very sensible concerning interferences of mobiles, wireless devices, bad smpsus...
if i sort this out i prefer it without ferrites especially in terms of tune dem. also the reproduction becomes more dramatic but that may not be everyones thing...
otherwise - with a mobile in the room or its psu in the circuit etc. it truely becomes very stressed.

so for ne it is like in many cases - it simply depends...

regards to all and hallo :-)
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Post by robird » 2012-11-02 09:46

hey :-)

power conditoner before mobile helps...

i use a unshielded hydra but my whole equipment is wallmounted and the racks are grounded - this chages a lot.

are the ferrites part of the original concept or are they a must to sell smps-devices in europe? i ask because the switches are not...

cheers
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