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LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-04 12:20
by ROBIZ
I've got a Linn 90, s ser.n. 093416 Karousel and Majik sub. Lingo1 . In order to calibrate the Karousel I have a Stuart Vant Richmont Cal 36/4 . Roto torque . I purchased the Richmont used but it seems to work still well. To the Karousel I applied a 2N which seems like a value reccomended form Linn. Before that , Beacuse a reading error in a first time I applied a 1,2 N to the Karousel .
Indeed It seems to me That with a Value of 1,2 N My Lp 12 sounds More Musical than with 2N. I wonder If It's possible that a 90,s Linn could play at optimum levels below 2N . Anyway the difference are not Night and Day .

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-05 16:33
by ThomasOK
Actually Linn recommend a torque for the top of 3.5Nm (they initially recommended 4.0Nm but changed it after a couple months) and I have found 3.4Nm even to be most musical on the Kore, Majik and Cirkus sub chassis. Since these drivers can vary slightly from one to the next I would recommend checking some values close to that to be sure. Try 3.4Nm even, then try it plus 2 notches and minus 2 notches. If one or the other of those is more musical than the 3.4 torque then try a little farther in that direction until it gets worse and go back. If neither of those sound as good, and they sound equally off in different ways then 3.4 is probably it but you can also try 1 notch up or down just to be sure. 1 notch is audible and everything just sounds right when you get it correct. There is also a torque for the bottom nut but it requires a different driver as it is 7.0Nm on the driver I use. It also needs a six point 21mm socket instead of the 20mm for the top. Good luck.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-05 18:55
by ROBIZ
Really thanks for your suggestions Thomas

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-06 18:00
by ROBIZ
7.0 N is a considerable Force . In order to do that where do you place the bearing ?

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-06 18:36
by ThomasOK
I do it with the bearing in place on the sub chassis and just hold the sub chassis in place while I tighten it. Note that the driver I ended up with is fairly inexpensive but it is very close to my CAL36/4 at 2.0 and 4.0Nm. It also comes with a test sheet (three tests each at 2.0, 5.0 and 8.0). At 2.0 and 5.0 it is pretty close, I think within .1 or .2 on all three tests, but on the 8.0 it consistently tested as 7.5. I bought one for Fredrik and noticed the same thing - close on the lower settings but 7.5 where it is marked 8.0. Based on this I would guess that it is closer to 6.5 when tightening to 7.0 so with a different driver you might have to go a bit lower. But a few people who have used the same driver have also found 7.0 on the driver to be the most musical.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-07 21:05
by ROBIZ
Thanks again for your suggestions Thomas

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-08 00:00
by tpetsch
ROBIZ wrote: 2023-05-06 18:00 7.0 N is a considerable Force . In order to do that where do you place the bearing ?
7.0 Newton Meter (N-m) converts to 62.0 Inch Pounds (in-lb) or 5.17 Foot Pounds (ft-lb), sounds like a lot to me too.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-08 11:53
by ROBIZ
I can only confirm for myself that a 3,4 N my linn Lp 12 has never sounded so good.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-10 17:07
by ThomasOK
tpetsch wrote: 2023-05-08 00:00
ROBIZ wrote: 2023-05-06 18:00 7.0 N is a considerable Force . In order to do that where do you place the bearing ?
7.0 Newton Meter (N-m) converts to 62.0 Inch Pounds (in-lb) or 5.17 Foot Pounds (ft-lb), sounds like a lot to me too.
It sounded like a lot to me too. I thought I had explained this elsewhere but initially I used 2.4Nm +2 for the bottom as it was the best I found over a fairly wide range tested and was close to where I found them torqued from the factory. But then I got a document from Linn about proper torque drivers for tightening the top nut and it mentioned that the recommended torque for the bottom nut was between 6.5 and 7.5Nm but shouldn't go over the 7.5 setting. They also said that they used 6.5Nm at the factory. Initially I didn't do anything with the information as they weren't coming from the factory that tight but I eventually decided to try it and bought the new driver. I tried everything from 6.0 to 7.5 and found 7.0 even to be the best. I posted his and one of the members who I had shared the torques with posted two unidentified clips. I believe the preference was unanimous and he revealed that the clips were 2.4Nm+2 and 7.0, which was the one everyone preferred. He much preferred it in his room as well. He had bought one of the same drivers I was using. Looking at the test results that came with the driver I saw that the measured torque at the 8.0Nm marking was 7.5 on he three tests they did. So I tried torques between the marks for 7.5 and 8.0 since that wouldn't exceed Linn's maximum recommendation. It was still most musical at an indicated 7.0 (which is probably closer to an actual 6.5). Since that time I have redone a fair number of LP12s that I had originally done with the lower torque and everyone has been quite pleased, as have several on this and the Linn forum who have tried it after my suggestion.

While it is far and away the highest torque used on an LP12 I do think it makes sense. What you are tightening is the cap that holds the thrust plate on the bottom of the Karousel housing. If there is even the tiniest motion of that thrust plate you are going to lose musical information. Part of the idea of the Karousel was to make the thrust plate flex even less by making it smaller in diameter and supporting it from underneath. A slight free play in the fitting to the tubular part of the housing could counteract that added rigidity. That is all just my hypothesis but the important thing is that it does sound most musical there.

For anyone interested this is the driver I and a few others have used for this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DI ... UTF8&psc=1

ROBIZ, glad to hear you found the 3.4Nm torque useful. It does make quite a noticeable improvement when you get these things right.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-25 10:51
by Efraim roots
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-05-10 17:07 ...............
That is all just my hypothesis but the important thing is that it does sound most musical there.

For anyone interested this is the driver I and a few others have used for this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DI ... UTF8&psc=1
Thanks Thomas, very interesting. I never did the bottom cap of Karousel since I was afraid to make a mess. Is there anything particular to watch out for doing this operation. Is there any risks of loosening the bottom cap too much and get oil where it's not supposed to be, for example?

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-05-26 00:19
by ThomasOK
Efraim roots wrote: 2023-05-25 10:51
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-05-10 17:07 ...............
That is all just my hypothesis but the important thing is that it does sound most musical there.

For anyone interested this is the driver I and a few others have used for this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DI ... UTF8&psc=1
Thanks Thomas, very interesting. I never did the bottom cap of Karousel since I was afraid to make a mess. Is there anything particular to watch out for doing this operation. Is there any risks of loosening the bottom cap too much and get oil where it's not supposed to be, for example?
You certainly don't want to loosen the bottom cap very much and break the seal but that would likely take a lot of loosening. All you need to do is barely loosen it until it starts to move and then tighten it to the right torque. Likely you don't even have to loosen it as the torque you are applying is considerably higher than what I find they are tightened to at the factory so it will probably move just tightening it. But I like to loosen fasteners slightly to make sure I am getting a proper tightening of them.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-06-01 13:43
by Efraim roots
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-05-26 00:19
Efraim roots wrote: 2023-05-25 10:51
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-05-10 17:07 ...............
That is all just my hypothesis but the important thing is that it does sound most musical there.

For anyone interested this is the driver I and a few others have used for this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DI ... UTF8&psc=1
Thanks Thomas, very interesting. I never did the bottom cap of Karousel since I was afraid to make a mess. Is there anything particular to watch out for doing this operation. Is there any risks of loosening the bottom cap too much and get oil where it's not supposed to be, for example?
You certainly don't want to loosen the bottom cap very much and break the seal but that would likely take a lot of loosening. All you need to do is barely loosen it until it starts to move and then tighten it to the right torque. Likely you don't even have to loosen it as the torque you are applying is considerably higher than what I find they are tightened to at the factory so it will probably move just tightening it. But I like to loosen fasteners slightly to make sure I am getting a proper tightening of them.
Thanks! It seems doable. So there is no need to put the LP12 up side down while torque bottom cap then?

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-06-01 14:01
by Efraim roots
Efraim roots wrote: 2023-06-01 13:43
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-05-26 00:19

Thanks Thomas, very interesting. I never did the bottom cap of Karousel since I was afraid to make a mess. Is there anything particular to watch out for doing this operation. Is there any risks of loosening the bottom cap too much and get oil where it's not supposed to be, for example?
You certainly don't want to loosen the bottom cap very much and break the seal but that would likely take a lot of loosening. All you need to do is barely loosen it until it starts to move and then tighten it to the right torque. Likely you don't even have to loosen it as the torque you are applying is considerably higher than what I find they are tightened to at the factory so it will probably move just tightening it. But I like to loosen fasteners slightly to make sure I am getting a proper tightening of them.
Thanks! It seems doable. So there is no need to put the LP12 up side down while torque bottom cap then? But I'll fully remove the inner platter first I guess, or do you just rest it on cardboard or foam between top plate and platter?

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-06-02 20:29
by ThomasOK
Efraim roots wrote: 2023-06-01 14:01 Thanks! It seems doable. So there is no need to put the LP12 up side down while torque bottom cap then? But I'll fully remove the inner platter first I guess, or do you just rest it on cardboard or foam between top plate and platter?
I don't see any need to turn it upside down to do it. In most cases I am doing it before I put the inner platter in, but I have done it with the inner platter lifted on foam for extra safety. If you are holding the sub chassis relatively securely it is not going to move very much.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-06-20 17:21
by sktn77a
I didn't bother doing anything to the bottom bearing cup when I installed my Karousel. Does it come correctly torqued from the factory?

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-06-20 20:14
by ThomasOK
sktn77a wrote: 2023-06-20 17:21 I didn't bother doing anything to the bottom bearing cup when I installed my Karousel. Does it come correctly torqued from the factory?
Not in my experience. It is generally not tight enough.

Re: LP 12 early 90 , Karousel , Torque issue 2N !

Posted: 2023-07-04 23:27
by sktn77a
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-06-20 20:14 Not in my experience. It is generally not tight enough.
Wow, that pretty sloppy of Linn to send the Karousel out without the correct torque setting on the bottom cap.