Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

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Efraim roots
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Post by Efraim roots »

I have not reported back for a while but I have done some tests with my 109’s. First regarding the extra dampening, I have still not found additional dampening to the back of port to improve performance, I have tried different thickness of polyfill but still prefer without. I have also come to the conclusion that the big polyfill wich is part of the original internals of the 109 should be centered over the bass driver hole and pushed straight in slightly bowl shaped half way deep to the box. This is what I have found to be best.

I have also found that my 109’s sound a little different to each other even if they look as identical as possible on the inside and same torque on bass driver screws and also the bananscrews on the back. I have tried to tune with torques but still there is one speaker with a more harder top sound than the other wich is more relaxed. I blame the torque settings on the 2k array for this, what do you think? I can’t really understand how it is possible to try different torqes on the 2k array, it seems very difficult, anyone succed with that?
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for the update, Efraim!

I will check the position of that polyfill behind the bass.

One reason why your two 109's don't sound the same is that no pair is ever perfectly matched. I have many times compared the left and right speaker of a pair, which is best done by having only one speaker in the room at a time and making sure you position them exactly the same when you switch between them. And each time I've done this the two have sounded remarkably different.

I have also done measurements a couple of times and the tolerance of drive units and filter components is usually not that good. It's expensive to keep the tolerances low. This applies to electronics as well as loudspeakers.
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Post by rowlandhills »

lejonklou wrote:I have also done measurements a couple of times and the tolerance of drive units and filter components is usually not that good. It's expensive to keep the tolerances low. This applies to electronics as well as loudspeakers.
I seem to recall that the difference between the 3k arrays used on 242s and those used on 350s are that the ones used on the 350s are carefully picked to be the best matched pairs, whereas on 242s they just pick up the next one on the pile each time...
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Post by ThomasOK »

rowlandhills wrote:
lejonklou wrote:I have also done measurements a couple of times and the tolerance of drive units and filter components is usually not that good. It's expensive to keep the tolerances low. This applies to electronics as well as loudspeakers.
I seem to recall that the difference between the 3k arrays used on 242s and those used on 350s are that the ones used on the 350s are carefully picked to be the best matched pairs, whereas on 242s they just pick up the next one on the pile each time...
I am pretty sure this is no longer the case. My understanding is that this was the case when it was Artikulats and Akurates. From what I've read the 3K array was redesigned when the switch was made to the Klimax speakers. The redesign was in part brought about by one of the drivers going out of production and requiring a replacement be found. At that time the head of speaker design was not happy with one of the other drivers either (I think it was the super-tweeter) so both were replaced. The story was that the new 3K array was able to be manufactured to tight enough tolerances that hand picking was no longer necessary. So the 3K array in the Klimax speakers and that in the Akurate MkIIs is the same - indeed the item in the parts list is described as "Multi Use 3K array" and the only variants are black or silver.
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Post by Music Lover »

Thomas, how do you distinguish between the 3K-arrays for 242mkI, Artikulate and the one for 242mkII&Klimax?

Serial number, special label or what?
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Post by lejonklou »

I think you're correct in all the above, Thomas.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Music Lover wrote:Thomas, how do you distinguish between the 3K-arrays for 242mkI, Artikulate and the one for 242mkII&Klimax?

Serial number, special label or what?
I believe that there should be labels on the back of the 3K arrays themselves. The current part numbers are PACK 1350 and PACK 1350/B (for Black). I did pull the 3K Array off one of our 242 MkII demos (Mk3 as far as we are concerned) and it does have a sticker with PACK B1350 on the top back as well as some other numbers. There is also another PACK sticker on the back (I think PACK 864) but that most likely it Linn's internal par number for the kit of metalwork for the array.

Checking on one of the older parts price lists gives a part number of PACK 1060 for the Artikulat speakers (apparently even further hand-picked as there were both Passive and Aktiv variants in both colors) and PACK 864 for the somewhat less expensive Akurate 3K Array. There is also even a third 3K Array listed on the same price list with no description as to what it goes in. It is priced between the Akurate and Artikulat versions. I suppose it might have been for the studio monitors they used to make or it might have been yet an earlier version. Whatever the case there is only the one 3K Array model in the current price list.
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Post by Music Lover »

Thanks Thomas.

The two sentences below (Bold) seems to be conflicting, please check.
(got info from another linnie that the 3k for Akurate mkI is PACK 1262)

Another Q; What month/year were black 3k's released?

ThomasOK wrote:
I believe that there should be labels on the back of the 3K arrays themselves. The current part numbers are PACK 1350 and PACK 1350/B (for Black). I did pull the 3K Array off one of our 242 MkII demos (Mk3 as far as we are concerned) and it does have a sticker with PACK B1350 on the top back as well as some other numbers. There is also another PACK sticker on the back (I think PACK 864) but that most likely it Linn's internal par number for the kit of metalwork for the array.

Checking on one of the older parts price lists gives a part number of PACK 1060 for the Artikulat speakers (apparently even further hand-picked as there were both Passive and Aktiv variants in both colors) and PACK 864 for the somewhat less expensive Akurate 3K Array.
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Post by Efraim roots »

I got myself a torque screwdriver of the type recommended by ThomasOK, SR Cal-36/4.

I've been playing with torque values on my M109 today and have come to the result that 1,4nm is best. Does this make sense to you guys?
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Post by Charlie1 »

Efraim roots wrote:I got myself a torque screwdriver of the type recommended by ThomasOK, SR Cal-36/4.

I've been playing with torque values on my M109 today and have come to the result that 1,4nm is best. Does this make sense to you guys?
Cool.

Do you have an LP12 Efraim?
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Post by Efraim roots »

Do you have an LP12 Efraim?
Yes, full spec Rad/D Keel EkosSE with Adikt and Uphorik. I use Naim amps Nac 52/52PS + Nap 110, all recently serviced at Naim factory.
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Post by lejonklou »

Efraim roots wrote:I got myself a torque screwdriver of the type recommended by ThomasOK, SR Cal-36/4.

I've been playing with torque values on my M109 today and have come to the result that 1,4nm is best. Does this make sense to you guys?
Cool! Was it a brand new or used one?

I'm asking because some of the used ones I've bought on ebay have not been well calibrated. Luckily, the scale is adjustable by rotating it, if you loosen the small allen key that's holding it. Then, if you don't have any reference, it's not too bad using the arm height locking screw on your LP12. It has a very sharp performance peak and if you find it by ear, you can then adjust your scale to exactly 1.6 Nm plus one notch on the bottom adjuster. This should make the instrument pretty accurate in the range 1-2 Nm.

I've personally ended up at 1.2 Nm on my 109 bass units.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Efraim roots wrote:
Do you have an LP12 Efraim?
Yes, full spec Rad/D Keel EkosSE with Adikt and Uphorik. I use Naim amps Nac 52/52PS + Nap 110, all recently serviced at Naim factory.
I was thinking you could easily do the main bearing yourself. There are three fixings that you can tune and also ensure they are all identical tightness. Just take off the outer and inner platter to reveal them at the centre. You will probably have the slightly pull the Keel across to entirely reveal the fixing.

I know Fredrik has mentioned the arm height. Just be careful to gently hold onto the arm as you undo it. First time I did mine, the arm suddenly fell down with a bit of a crash. No harm done, but my heart rate went up like a shot!
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Post by Efraim roots »

The torque wrench was listed as a brand new in box, but when received it looked more like a really good condition used one. On the box there was a date on the box "Aug 2007". Does this device get old and in need for re-calibration with age or how do they work? Do they wear and get unreliable with age?

Thanks for the tip regarding calibration towards the arm torque. I actually tried the EkosSE and found 1,6nm+2steps was best, but I must add that I'm a newbee handling the LP12 and felt quite uncomfortable doing this with my expensive gear. So testing wasn't very extensive. I will try again when I get a new needle for my Adikt as I guess VTA has to be adjusted.

However I feel that this screwdriver opens up a whole new world of optimising your HiFi! This kind of precision is just impossible to achieve by "feeling" and the differences are big! The difference after I torqued my Ekos and Adikt was really important, so was the M109s.

With time I can definitely see myself use this torque wrench to almost all my hifi gear.

The real eye-opener was when I let my LP12 to be serviced by Lejonklou, and the result was amazing! I then upgraded to keel and my regular dealer installed it, the result was that I didn't really feel it was an improvement. I got my LP12 adjusted by Lejonklou again a few months afterwards and the difference was truly amazing. It was like I'd done the keel upgrade at that time and not 6 months earlier. After that, same thing again, I got the Ekos SE upgrade done by my dealer and the improvement in increased information was there, but things wasn't as balanced and flowing and at "the right places" as before the upgrade.

I must have a torque wrench I said to myself :-)

I should add that if Lejonklou wasn't 500km away I would let him do all the service and upgrades. Now my situation has been that I have a dealer in my town, and have brought my LP12 to Lejonklou on the summers during my vacation which I usually spend in Uppsala.
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Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for your kind words, Efraim!
Efraim roots wrote:Does this device get old and in need for re-calibration with age or how do they work? Do they wear and get unreliable with age?
I have eight of these tools. One was fine (bought second hand as "new" but turned out to be well used) but suddenly lost its calibration and became looser. I adjusted the scale of it and set it to a fixed value that I use for my electronics. None of the others seem to have lost their calibration, but they vary slightly between eachother. Sturtevant Richmont claims 6% accuracy, but to me it seems they are much more accurate.

Paolo had a suspicion that if a tool was lying around when set to a high torque (the internal spring is then under tension), it might gradually loose its calibration. I tried this by setting one of mine against a reference and letting it lie unused for several months. The result was that it hadn't changed a single step in that time.

Other than that, I just know that the ones that are used in the industry are sold off after they've been used for a certain period. So I guess they do get a bit unreliable with age.
Efraim wrote:Thanks for the tip regarding calibration towards the arm torque. I actually tried the EkosSE and found 1,6nm+2steps was best
Great! That's just one step away from what I've found, which means our tools should be pretty equal, at least around that figure. Over 3 Nm (necessary for the main bearing), we'd probably find they are several steps apart. It's always best to evaluate by ear and use all recommended figures as a starting point. Taking notes of what optimal values you've found with your own tool is also a good idea. It just speeds up future fine tunings.
Efraim wrote:However I feel that this screwdriver opens up a whole new world of optimising your HiFi! This kind of precision is just impossible to achieve by "feeling" and the differences are big!
Agreed! I'm forever grateful to ThomasOK who started all this.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Thanks for the comment, Fredrik.

I fully agree with Effraim roots comments about the usefulness of this technique. Even with 33 plus years setting up LP12s there is no way I can feel the kind of fine differences in tightness that have proven themselves to be musically important. Your story of major upgrades like the Keel an the Ekos SE not seeming like much of an upgrade without proper torquing is very interesting. I know that I had a customer bring his LP12 in for a tuneup, no parts replaced, and when he arrived home he and his wife put on one of their favorite pieces of music and it literally brought his wife to tears. Two weeks later he had me install a Trampolin 2 I had recommended at the time. When he got home with that he called and told me that, while it was a nice improvement, it was nothing like the improvement from just the tuning up I had done. I find it difficult to understand why some well-known "LP12 Gurus" resist the idea when the benefits are so musically obvious.

As to the reliability and repeatability of these torque screwdrivers, so far I have had no problems with them. I don't think the concern about letting them sit with high torques is valid as I have three of these and I keep one set at the torque for the Cirkus sub chassis to bearing housing and another for the Keel to bearing housing, both of which are near the top of the range and they are still at the right setting after a couple of years. In most cases in industry these drivers are set at one torque and used that way for years so it would certainly be a problem if they drifted. There is definitely some variance from one to the next and the markings themselves aren't that precise (sometimes there are more or fewer notches between adjacent markings) which is why I always recommend going by ear and using any torques I have given out as a starting point. But yours appears to be very close as 1.6 +1 is what I use on the Ekos SE. I think the 6% accuracy is likely to be the accuracy from one tool to the next compared to a precision torque meter. I have found internally the torque consistency and repeatability seems to be quite high.
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Post by Efraim roots »

Thanks Thomas for introducing the torque wrench in the first place and also making it easy for me to know which one to have!

Proper torque adjustment by Lejonklou of LP12, it's definitely one of the most satisfying upgrades I have ever done. All I wrote before regarding upgrades is just as I experienced it nothing more. With a small correction, My own comment about EkosSE may have been just a little exaggerated, I wrote:
but things wasn't as balanced and flowing and at "the right places" as before the upgrade.
A more correct statement would be: things wasn't as balanced and at 'the right places' as before the upgrade. EkosSE certainly has flow.
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Post by Efraim roots »

After some more extensive testing of torque on my M109s I have found that a value of approx. 1,27nm is best on my bass drivers. This setting has a more natural pitch to instruments and more natural flow and interplay between musicians than my first setting on 1,4nm which sound compressed in comparison.
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Re: Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

Post by tmilligan »

It has been a while since this thread was active, and I have probably been meaning to paint the arrays on my 109s for just about as long... Well, finally, I've done it!

I used Tamiya model paint. The particular shade is a matt black called Rubber Black (XF-85) which is meant for painting tyres on model cars but matches the rubber surround of the bass drive unit very well...

Masked up with the first coat drying

Image

After 3 coats

Image

And the pair in situ

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Re: Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

Post by tmilligan »

Oh, and a close up of the array...

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Re: Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

Post by rowlandhills »

Was that sprayed on or hand painted?

Looks good either way.
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Re: Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

Post by tmilligan »

Hand painted with a modelling brush
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Re: Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

Post by lejonklou »

Very Nice!
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Re: Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

Post by mrco99 »

A great job, Tom, thanks for sharing these pictures, and you should really send these to Linn as well.
IMO Linn just needs to offer this as a standard option - it makes the 109 (and M140) look so much classier instead of the current bling-bling array.

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Re: Painting the 2K array black + tuning the M109

Post by tmilligan »

Thanks chaps!

Yes I totally agree, it looks so much better. Perhaps it is a way to encourage those of us who are bothered by these things to upgrade to the 212 etc?!

Does anyone know if the Linn badge is just stuck on? On my Katans, there is a recess in which the badge sits. If the 109 badge is surface mounted, it will be coming off tonight...!
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