Optimizing your DS

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Music Lover
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Post by Music Lover »

Spannko wrote: Nobody has ever been able to answer your question.
Not correct.
It has been explained numerous times, see Fredriks post.
I just like to add, that the digital signal "1" and "0" is NOT digital. It's an analogue signal. (i.e. the the digital signal is represented in the analogue domain and hence can carry noise, as all analogue signals)

So even if the circuits can interpret the "1" and"0" from a noisy signal correctly, (=no data lost) the noise will affect the D/A performance.

Nothing strange at all!
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Post by bugi666 »

lejonklou wrote:
When the data is converted to an analogue signal, however, the conversion process (done by the DA converter) is not perfect. If you add, for instance, noise to the digital signal feeding the DA converter, the analogue signal coming out of the converter will be more noisy. Simply put: No DA converter is perfect at rejecting imperfections in the digital signal. And no digital signal is perfect when seen from an analogue viewpoint.
Ok. When is the data converted to analogue signal?
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Post by lejonklou »

bugi666 wrote:Ok. When is the data converted to analogue signal?
In the DAC or streamer (DS).
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Post by bugi666 »

So why anything before the DAC makes difference? What is the signal leaving nas?
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Post by lejonklou »

bugi666 wrote:So why anything before the DAC makes difference? What is the signal leaving nas?
I don't understand the first question. I don't think that everything makes a difference.

What the NAS is sending to the local area network is a signal (with an analogue waveform) carrying digital data. The data is identified and repeated by e.g. the switch.
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Post by bugi666 »

What I meant in the first question was - if the signal becomes "analogue" in the DS's DAC, and before that we have 0/1 signal, why the whole path between the DAC and the NAS (including HDDs inside the NAS, cable from nas to switch, switch itself, cable to the DS) could make a difference?

Right, I better sit down and read a bit about it, as at the moment I'm walking blindly. Not sure how exactly the digital 0/1 signal is being transmitted, and how it could be affected (e.g. deteriorated) before it hits the DAC.
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Post by rootola »

From what I've gathered... when an analogue waveform has just two values (zero and one) we label it 'digital' - basically for convenience. We know the packets of data are received by the DS perfectly - so this is not the issue.

The benefits people have reported with certain networking equipment can be suggested to be due to reducing exposure to noise, RFI etc picked up by virtue of ethernet being an electrical signal. It appears that noise accompanying the perfect electrical data into the DS circuit can alter performance.

I may very well have drawn the wrong conclusions though!
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Post by bugi666 »

I managed to get a new NAS, with different HDDS, so will try to compare both NAS's in my system and see(hear) what my half-deaf ears think about it ;)

NAS1 - ReadynasDuo V1, 2x 1.5TB Samsung 5400rpm drives
NAS2 - Qnap TS212, 2x2TB Seagate 7200 rpm drives

Ethernet cables connecting the NAS's to the router/switch are the same.
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Post by WIJI »

bugi666 wrote: Ethernet cables connecting the NAS's to the router/switch are the same.
Look forward to reading your findings Bugi.

Remember to also compare switch positions, and to swap the ethernet cables to the NASs, for a full comparison to be useful.
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Post by bugi666 »

Well,

Tested few things with WIJI today. To my surprise, the both NAS's sound absolutely identical.....

NOT.

The difference is there, and it's really easy to distinguish between the NAs's. The Readynas Duo definitely sounds better than the Qnap - the difference is like going from Silver interconnects to blacks - that kinda magnitude (only saying this as we tested silvers vs blacks again today ;)).

Both NAS's were connected to the same router, my phone was set up to use one NAS, and tablet was feeding music from the other one. We switched the same track played from both nas's and ... it's just mindblowing, especially for some who was so sceptical about it ....

WIJI suggested to try Readynas's power supply with Qnap, but unfortunately the NEtgear power supply is smaller - only 1.5A, compared to 5A in Qnap :(


Have not tested ethernet cables yet, but will do it over next few days ...

So, hats off, Ladies and Gentleman. I've been blind but now I see...
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Post by lejonklou »

Very cool, thanks for reporting bugi666!
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Post by bugi666 »

So, now, after the test (still need to test different cables between the NAS's) it looks like my Qnap, although lightning fast compare to ReadyNAS duo will have to go, based on the sound (still can't believe how different it sounds! tried it few times).

Is there any other NAS that has been tested and proven to sound good, but not necessarily is as slow as ReadynasDuo? Did anyone tried newer V2 series of Netgear's NAS?

I know there's Linnofil super-NAS, but I don't see me going this route, I'd rather go for something off the shelf...
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Post by Music Lover »

bugi666 wrote: Both NAS's were connected to the same router, my phone was set up to use one NAS, and tablet was feeding music from the other one. We switched the same track played from both nas's and ...
fyi, you can use ONE control point, playing music from both your NAS.
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Post by paolo »

bugi666 wrote: Is there any other NAS that has been tested and proven to sound good, but not necessarily is as slow as ReadynasDuo? Did anyone tried newer V2 series of Netgear's NAS?
The latest Readynas Pro 4 is a very good soundig NAS, possibly a bit better than Readynas NV+ (I have briefly compared the two but the Pro 4 was brand new and with new HDDs so the final verdict has been not 100% conclusive). It is a 4 bay NAS and quite expensive though. I've not any experience about the Duo V2 but I've had not favorable reports by a trusty fellow some time ago.

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Post by bugi666 »

Music Lover wrote:
bugi666 wrote: Both NAS's were connected to the same router, my phone was set up to use one NAS, and tablet was feeding music from the other one. We switched the same track played from both nas's and ...
fyi, you can use ONE control point, playing music from both your NAS.
I know but it was just faster and easier to do it this way..
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Post by Rufus McDufus »

Music Lover wrote:
Spannko wrote: Nobody has ever been able to answer your question.
Not correct.
It has been explained numerous times, see Fredriks post.
I just like to add, that the digital signal "1" and "0" is NOT digital. It's an analogue signal. (i.e. the the digital signal is represented in the analogue domain and hence can carry noise, as all analogue signals)

So even if the circuits can interpret the "1" and"0" from a noisy signal correctly, (=no data lost) the noise will affect the D/A performance.

Nothing strange at all!

One interesting aside with 'modern' ethernet (i.e most 10mbps and up) is that the signals representing 0 & 1 can vary. One of the problems with maintaing speed and reliability with ethernet is 'baseline wander' where due to electrical effects such as capacitance in the wires the voltages determining 1 or 0 can vary and the baseline - the threshold boundary between the two - can become useless as both 1 or 0 values wander beyond the baseline. One method in ethernet to overcome this is to actually flip the electrical values representing 1 or 0 dynamically - this is known as 'scrambling' - to maintain electrical integrity and ensure the baseline value can remain constant. Clever stuff.
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Post by bugi666 »

I am absolutely puzzled now. Tried another thing last night. Readynas was connected as before to my router/wireless hub, and the Qnap has been now connected wirelessly using Trendnet 638PAP AP client. Same ethernet cable has been used between the trendnet and qnap, as was used before between router/qnap.

I couldn't crank it too much as kids were sleeping, but surprisingly, there was much less difference in sound between the nas's. After few changes of tracks I would still say Netgear sounded a tad better, but it was a very minimal difference, nothing like before...

The only real difference was that the trendnet/qnap have both been connected to a different power socket in another corner of the room (they will be moved to the attic if the wireless signal is strong enough).
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Post by Music Lover »

Nothing strange, you making changes to the infrastructure leading to this result.

Instead,
1/ optimize the DS-LAN architecture before comparing.
2/ change just ONE item (i.e. NAS) = use same power outlet, same Ethernet cable, same Ethernet port on the switch. And same power cord if possible.
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Post by bugi666 »

I'm struggling with finding differences with A/B tests when I have to compare the sound after some (even short) period of time... I am finding it much easier to quickly switch between A/B...

Anyway, I will experiment with ethernet cables (swap them round) when both NAS's will be connected to the same socket. Power supplies are different so unfortunately I won't be able to compare them...
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Post by Music Lover »

bugi666 wrote:I'm struggling with finding differences with A/B tests when I have to compare the sound after some (even short) period of time... I am finding it much easier to quickly switch between A/B...
Understand, but please consider this.
IF you use same cables, same position on the rack, etc etc (=only change one item) VERY likely the difference is bigger = easier to hear the difference.

I can easily setup a test between KDS and ADS where the difference is minimal, but I can easily setup a test where the difference is massive.

Do you prefer a test setup that makes differences smaller to be able to quickly switch, or a test setup that perform better and makes differences bigger?
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Post by bugi666 »

Shame, it's too late and I'm too tired to write the whole story again ... so apologies for a rude CTRL+V ....

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=22350
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Post by ThomasOK »

New updates have been added to the RJ45 cables, Ripping software and Collected Recommendations sections.
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Post by ThomasOK »

I have edited several of the categories with updated information and findings. Updates were made to the sections on NAS and HDDs, Network Switches and RJ45 Cables. I have also provided links to the various sections summarized in the Collected Recommendations section.
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Post by DelNaja »

I apologize if this has already been answered in some other thread (I have searched the forum), but when changing the stock fan in the ReadyNAS NV+, what fan would you (present and previous) owners recommend? I gather quite a few have changed the fan with good results (less noise, better musicality), but it's hard to find what model.

Is this one perhaps an alternative? (sorry, swedish webpage)
http://cdon.se/hemelektronik/noctua/noc ... -p27363800
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Post by u252agz »

Just for Information:

Needing an 8 port network switch - the guys at Maplin sold me a Netgear FS 108 v2 - they had no GS108 and said it would make no difference.

FIrst impression- compared to my trusty GS105 : just horrible, but I thought I would let it burn in over two weeks. The music improved dramatically- no longer broken- but did not seem quite as magical as I remembered with GS105.

Trying the GS105 again - a revelation. Harmony was restored - so much better. A huge difference in all parameters and I was happy again.

I do need an 8 port switch now there is a Sneaky in the bedroom but will now have to search for a GS108T as recommended in the Forum.
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