Bouncy Linto

[springwood64]

Following on from adding a tramp2 to my LP12, I was intrigued by some comments in the Linn Radikal online Q&A replay. Someone asked the Linn guys if a Linto would benefit from sitting on a Trampolin. The Linn engineer replied that he had not tried this, but that most components benefit from isolation from vibration.

This piqued my interest because I have one of my Espeks right in front of the cabinet carrying my hi fi. The Espek has a rear facing bass driver that is about 14 inches from the cabinet. If I put my finger on the cabinet while playing music at moderate volume I can feel the cabinet vibrating. On the plinth of the LP12 I can feel nothing, even at high volumes, which shows the isolation achieved by the trampolin. However, the Linto is happily buzzing along with the rest of the cabinet.

For a cheap experiment I inserted my old Nirvana springs (replaced when the LP12 was serviced) into some short sections of bicycle inner tube (to act as dampers) and placed the Linto on top of them. My aim was to achieve similar isolation for the Linto as the tramp provides for the LP12. I figured that I would get horizontal and vertical isolation with this approach.

The result was pretty successful and has convinced me I need to look carefully at isolation for the Linto at least. The 'finger on the box' test shows that the Linto is now pretty well isolated from the vibrations of the rest of the cabinet.

The sound improved in terms of better definition across the frequency ranges, but the biggest benefit was tunefulness.

It's hard to quantify the improvement in sound, but from memory I would say that the improvement in sound was much less than adding the tramp to the LP12, but roughly similar to adding a T-Kable or Linn Silvers.

It's also hard to quantify the improvement in tunefulness, however I think that it is bigger than when when I first added the tramp. Could it be this change has let more of the tramp's improvements shine through?

I plan to get hold of some more used Nirvana springs (nice and cheap!) and see what happens when I place them under the preamp and the power amps.

Can anyone recommend isolation products that look less Heath Robinson than old Nirvana springs in bicycle tubes? And which, of course, work as well or better . . .

Has anyone else any experiences of similar experiments with isolation?

[anthony]

A second hand trampolin?

[Moomintroll]

It was me that asked this question on the Q&A. The background to it was that the Linn engineers had explained some of the benefits of placing the Urika inside the LP12 - vibration reduction being one of them.

As I have an original Trampolin spare, I did try this. Let's just say, it's still there, so i must think it's beneficial. It's not the prettiest of arrangements, but my Linto is in a cupboard, so that doesn't bother me. Another issue is that the Linto's feet placement is not ideal for sitting it on a tramp, so some fiddling will be required to avoid some of the feet sitting directly on the tramp's feet. I think I used some small foam blocks.

'troll

[springwood64]

A second hand trampolin?

I did look at getting a second hand trampolin when I was planning to upgrade to a tramp on my LP12 a while back. However, for some reason, tramps seem to go for close on their new price - on Ebay at least. Definitely worth looking out for a bargain though.

If I do track down a cheap tramp ( :lol: ) I'll rearrange the feet on the Linto so that they do not foul the tramp feet.

[ThomasOK]

Interesting thread! I was just thinking it might be time to try some of these types of experiments. It occurred to me that we were ending up with a number of second hand Trampolin 2s coming in from people who are purchasing the Urika. Since, as has been noted, the Urika was said to benefit from the isolation of a Trampolin, and since the rack you use does have an impact on the performance of even the Klimax components, it seems logical that a Trampolin, (especially a 2) under a component might make an improvement. This is something I will have to try at some point, although the Trampolin won't fit on my Quadraspire Midi rack.

If it turns out to work well maybe Linn or someone else could make a metal Trampolin with the correct size and foot spacing to work well for components. It might even be possible to make it look halfway decent. I just hope it doesn't go the Mana way: "I've got seven Component Trampolins under my Klimax Kontrol and it is SO much better!" :)

[anthony]

Hi Thomas
Talking of multi layers, there was one guy who had so many layers of mana he cut a hole through his ceiling!

How about a thin rectangle of aluminium with trampolin feet as you say designed to accommodate the different sizes of Linn

[ThomasOK]

Hi Thomas
Talking of multi layers, there was one guy who had so many layers of mana he cut a hole through his ceiling!

How about a thin rectangle of aluminium with trampolin feet as you say designed to accommodate the different sizes of Linn

That's pretty much what I was thinking of. A thin sheet of aluminium with a damping pad, painted black and in sizes for LK/Klimax and AV boxes.

[springwood64]

Thomas, I'd be very interested to hear what you find when experimenting with adding bounce to a Linto on a good support.

Although my installation is probably more sensitive to the benefits of isolation than those on decent racks (and with better speaker positioning), it seems reasonable to expect a worthwhile improvement in tunefulness on most systems for the Linto at least.

I'm waiting for some more Nirvana springs to arrive. When they do I will put them under the preamp (an AV5103), which is currently vibrating along with the cabinet. I hope that I will hear an improvement in tunefulness, but I expect it will be less than that for the Linto.

If I get a significant improvement for the AV5103, I'll try repeating the experiment on the power amps.

[Moomintroll]

Hi Thomas
Talking of multi layers, there was one guy who had so many layers of mana he cut a hole through his ceiling!

How about a thin rectangle of aluminium with trampolin feet as you say designed to accommodate the different sizes of Linn

That's pretty much what I was thinking of. A thin sheet of aluminium with a damping pad, painted black and in sizes for LK/Klimax and AV boxes.

What an interesting idea - I hadn't thought of cannibalising the Tramp. Tom, do you have a Tramp 2 handy? How thick is the aluminium (I'm just way too lazy to disturb mine to find out!)

I'm assuming it's 3mm.

'troll

[MRTweak]

OK Linns original rubber feet may look simple, but they are really good and not at all easy to better. Isolation from air and structural bourne vibration is only half of what they do, the other half is to get away the vibration that the unit produces by it self to the supporting shelf.
Please do your experiment with old surplus trampolins, it could work :o with a linto, but if you try it on some other gear, such as an amplifier i suspect that after the initial joy, perhaps you will find that it wasnt that simple
To soft suspension makes the sound big and beautiful but the drive ,pace and the things that makes your feet want to dance gets lost and the music totally boring.
I use a pneumatic shelf from Solid Tech for my Linto and Lingo and i also used it succesfully on Kolektor and a Kairn but it dosnt work at all with Amps, CD-players, DA or LP12 (total disaster). Good luck and dont give up but be prepared for a long struggle before victory :mrgreen:

[ThomasOK]

What an interesting idea - I hadn't thought of cannibalising the Tramp. Tom, do you have a Tramp 2 handy? How thick is the aluminium (I'm just way too lazy to disturb mine to find out!)

I'm assuming it's 3mm.

'troll

I just checked and it is 3mm thick.

I appreciate the info from MRTweak and am glad he put it on the thread for everyone. I have to agree that I have found the Linn rubber feet hard to beat. Several people I have worked with over time have recommended different footer tweaks and I have diligently tried all of them from sorbothane and spring feet to carbon fiber and metal cones to the latest: Quadraspire acrylic crosses. Although they all bring a different sound I have yet to find one that actually improves the musical performance of my KK or my Ikemi. I have also tried a couple on the Linto and Lingo in the past also with negative results.

The main reason I thought this would be interesting is due to Linn using the Trampolin to suspend the Urika and claiming it makes a worthwhile improvement. And also the fact that the Trampolin feet are designed as a very specific type of isolation - one that was designed to have very little capacity for horizontal movement. This plus the Trampolin surplus made the idea of an experiment interesting, but I don't know how soon I'll really get around to it.

If it does turn out that it works well I should note that Linn sell a set of four Trampolin feet for about $100US. So it wouldn't be hard to incorporate them into a custom size piece of 3mm aluminum.

[Moomintroll]

Thomas,

thanks for that - I thought it was the same thickness as the older Tramp board. Suitable sheet aluminium can be found on a well known auction site - I've just ordered a 330mm x 330mm x 3mm piece for around £10 inc postage to give this a try. I think I'll do a mock-up using ply or something first as I think the positioning of the feet will be fun(?) if I want to make the board no bigger than the Linto footprint.

Of course, when I'll have time to do this is another matter.

regards,

'troll

[springwood64]

A quick update - I've tested placing 3 Nirvana springs under the AV5103. The 'finger test' confirmed that the springs minimise vibration of the AV5103. However I can't hear any convincing difference sound-wise or tunefulness.

So in my current set up it appears that the Linto benefits noticeably from additional isolation, but the effect does not extend significantly to the preamp.

[springwood64]

I managed to get hold of a cheap Trampolin 2, and decided to repeat the experiment from the start.

A: The starting point was the Linto on top of the cabinet, next to the LP12.

B: The Tramp would not fit next to the LP12 so I moved the Linto inside the cabinet on top of the AV 5103.

C: I then placed the Tramp on top of the AV 5103, underneath the Linto. I had to raise the feet of the Linto with spare LP12 rubber feet to avoid fouling the suspension of the Tramp.

D: I removed the LP12 feet from under the Linto, moved the Tramp under the AV 5103 and placed combinations of Nirvana rubber bushes and LP12 feet under the AV 5103 to avoid fouling the Tramp suspension again.

The following pictures show the set up:



I used Joni Mitchell's "Ladies of the Canyon" for all four tests.

I'm glad I did the test A->B, because this brought a noticeable improvement. In other words, just taking the Linto off the top of the cabinet brought as much an improvement in tunefulness as my very first test with the springs, and a minor improvement in definition. I could also feel a reduction in the vibration of the Linto with my finger test.

Moving the Tramp under the Linto (and on top of the AV 5103) (test C) produced an additional but smaller improvement in tunefulness and definition.

Finally, moving the Tramp under the AV 5103 (test D) brought a further but yet smaller improvement mainly in definition - there may be an improvement in tunefulness but I couldn't be sure.

When I did the original test with the Nirvana springs, I kept the Linto on top of the cabinet, and it sounds as though placing the springs under the Linto was equivalent to moving it onto the top of the AV 5103, in terms of isolation.

Overall, the tramp improved things, but less than moving the Linto off the top of the cabinet.

With respect to Linn producing a 'component Trampolin', after this test I'm not wholly convinced that it would be seen as a worthwhile improvement for the money. I paid £70 for the Tramp, and the improvement it brings feels like OK value at this price. Mind you, I was not particularly convinced by the improvements brought by T-Kable and Silvers for the price I paid (and that was second-hand), so I may be more price sensitive than Linn's target market :D

Now I'm checking out the second hand market for good supports . . .

[lejonklou]

Thanks Pete, quite an extensive report there.

Somehow, I am not surprised that it was removing the Linto from the top shelf that did the most. What I suspect is that part of the effect is not due to the Linto, but to the LP12. It wants to be placed centrally on a shelf of it's own.

Did you move the LP12 when placing the Linto beside it?

[springwood64]

Did you move the LP12 when placing the Linto beside it?

Yes - previously the LP12 was on the left hand side of the cabinet. When I moved the Linto, I placed the LP12 on the centre of the top of the cabinet.

[lejonklou]

Have you separated how that LP12 move affects the performance from your Linto experiments?

[Spannko]

Pete,

Judging by your photographs, the trampolinn's suspension is being bypassed because the feet of your pre-amp are sitting directly on top of the tramp's feet. You're not getting the advantage of why it's called the trampolinn, i.e. the thin rubber membrane acting as a trampoline and allowing vertical movement, with very little horizontal movement. The way you're using it may very well produce a worse sound because you've effectively added a lump of rubber under the pre-amp's foot, with an undamped piece of 3mm formica wobbling about! Remember, the LP12 only sits on the perimeter of the tramp', not on the tramp's feet.

[springwood64]

Judging by your photographs, the trampolinn's suspension is being bypassed because the feet of your pre-amp are sitting directly on top of the tramp's feet.

That's down to poor photography :oops:

I had to raise the AV 5103 up on pairs of old LP12 feet in order to ensure that it does not rest on the Trampolin suspension. The original feet of the AV 5103 are hanging in the air . . .

[Moomintroll]

I had to raise the AV 5103 up on pairs of old LP12 feet in order to ensure that it does not rest on the Trampolin suspension. The original feet of the AV 5103 are hanging in the air . . .

I emailed Dave Williamson about this and possible solutions. He advised that it is possible to refit the Trampolin feet underneath the board so that the tops don't stick up too high. In his opinion, this is a workable solution as he's tried it during R&D when space inside the LP12 was limited. He also advised that the suspension feet were designed to work within a weight range (ie an LP12) and that simply placing a Linto on top, may not get the best performance from the suspension.

'troll

[springwood64]

Have you separated how that LP12 move affects the performance from your Linto experiments?

I have experimented with moving the LP12 to different positions on top of the cabinet. The differences are pretty small to my ears, but I managed to convince myself that the best position is either with the deck over to one side so the feet are above the side wall of the cabinet, or with the deck in the centre and the back feet over the rear panel of the cabinet. It was pretty marginal though, so I am confident that LP12 position in this set up is not a big contributor.

I emailed Dave Williamson about this and possible solutions. He advised that it is possible to refit the Trampolin feet underneath the board so that the tops don't stick up too high. In his opinion, this is a workable solution as he's tried it during R&D when space inside the LP12 was limited. He also advised that the suspension feet were designed to work within a weight range (ie an LP12) and that simply placing a Linto on top, may not get the best performance from the suspension.

I followed your suggestion. It took careful positioning to ensure that the AV 5103 is placed in the right position so that neither the feet nor the lower case screws foul the tops of the suspension. I was able to remove the stacked LP12 feet from under the AV 5103, which now sits on the tramp on its own rubber feet. I think it sounds a little better too, but again the difference is small.

[Spannko]

Pete,

Sorry, I should have been more observant :oops: Just after posting, I looked at your photo again and noticed something lurking in the shadows, and wondered if you'd used something to overcome the problem.

I tried a similar thing in the late 80's, only I used 18mm mdf and the feet from a Linn Axis !!! lol. Needless to say it didn't work very well and ended up on the bonfire !

The axis feet used a similar trampoline design, but the center column, which I used as "feet" were about 50mm long and far too unstable. Also, I'm sure the mass of the mdf didn't help either.

[springwood64]

Just a quick update - I got myself a quadraspire rack and have ditched the trampolin under the preamp and Linto.

The rack means I do not need to stack the Linto on top of the preamp - each get their own shelf. It sounds a lot better than my previous support.

I did not A/B compare with or without the tramp on the new rack because there is no room for it and it now sounds so much better anyway.

[lejonklou]

Thanks for the update, Pete.

I haven't yet found any benefits by placing something in between a Lejonklou or Linn product and the shelves of Harmonihyllan. I wonder if it's the same thing with your Quadraspire; that an additional Trampolin would just degrade it's performance.

[Tony Tune-age]

Thanks for the update, Pete.

I haven't yet found any benefits by placing something in between a Lejonklou or Linn product and the shelves of Harmonihyllan. I wonder if it's the same thing with your Quadraspire; that an additional Trampolin would just degrade it's performance.

Actually, a person recently tried using an isolation platform under his CD player on top of a Quadraspire shelf...and it didn't sound good. Needless to say, he removed the device and put it up for sale