Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

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Defender
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Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

I want to get a better understanding what the Rack needs to achieve for better musicality. I know we have a lot of experience here with Hermann (Mana-Rack) and Ron The Mon and many others but I dont want to highjack Hermann´s Me and my system thread for it.

What does a good rack need to deliver - questions?
Is it keeping vibrations which come from the ground away from the component?
Is it making sure that airborne vibrations/resonancies are efficiently taken away from the instrument making it flow into the ground?
Or is it both?

Do have components like the LP12 different needs what the rack delivers compared to the Radikal or other components down the line? One example would be would the NOKTable be also usefull for the Radikal, Entity, Sagatun Monos.

I am in the process of trying out a coffeetable approach for the LP12 (fotos will follow) lightweight frame with spikes on both side placed on Linn Skeets.
How important is the position of the LP12 in the room as I see in the event section the LP12 is always placed in the center between the loudspeakers.

Your input is very much welcome.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by V.A.MKD »

Yes, good one Defender ...

I think it is Both, in the case where TT is in the system, if not, than only first one ... this is on the base of my experience ...

I propose to Hermann to try NOKTable (rack issue was on table) for his LP12 on the base on Tony Tune-age post, about his excellent musical experience, as well as positioning (with tune method) of NOKTable, in the corner and how far from the walls ...
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Chet »

Hi Defender,

I have done a lot of soul searching with racks recently so...

1. yes its both things. I can also add the following
- make it easier to get to the back of equipment if you need to move things or change cables
- give some air flow & space around each component
- least important but if you can get it - looks good.

2. what kind of spikes you use will make a difference to the sound - you can get sharper, duller, harsher, softer sounds, with it sounding more together or less etc. with different spikes

3. TT - I have found a wall mounted shelf (Vulcan I have) is best (depends also what walls you have) but I have not tried NOKtable

4. different components seem to emit or suffer more from vibrations and placed on different shelves can make a difference. I read previously sources equipment on the top shelves is best, so I have Radikal & CD 12 on 2 different racks top shelf next to each other.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

thank you for the first responses - here is one reason why I am asking: in microscopy or industrial measurement where vibrations are unwanted as they change the measurement usually big blocks of granite are used as support.
Many including me did the same in the past. Than I came here and read about the differences of the LP12 and why big masses actually eat away/store musical energy. What I did with good results (I think) is placing a bigger mass on the ground in between the feets/spikes of the rack. So the rack still stands on the ground and not on the big mass but the mass is reducing vibrations of the ground ... at least thats my thought.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Chet »

I don't understand

'placing a bigger mass on the ground in between the feets/spikes of the rack. So the rack still stands on the ground and not on the big mass'

can you explain in more detail.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Peter@57m »

I'm guessing something like this
Rack.jpg
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Chet »

Thanks for that.

I have suspended timber floors. They were providing their own backing singers. I put concrete slab under the rack & speakers and found that an improvement, stopping some of the vibrations to/ from the timber floors.

Putting a mass as per the diagram above would not have helped with the timber floors as my speakers & rack etc are all involved, and a lot of the floor was vibrating.

There is a balance though, too much damping, stops the musical flow.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Hermann »

Hi defender
I can not provide a technical explanation, but a little experience. Regarding vibrations / damping has been argued to excess in other forums without result for years . Basically two camps discussed, the users of a preferred system and those who demanded a technical expertise for audible changes. Discussion around the emperor's beard, as we say.

The tenor basically, put a device on a base and listen. In my opinion, the base affects the sound. However, not in the often assumed form, glass equals hard sound, wood equals softer. From my point of view, there is no rule in this regard.

Early on, my preferred material was iron and not wood. Just the LP12 on the IKEA table has never really pleased me, therefore self-build. And already at the end of the 70s with self-made spikes up and down. The support was very hard wood throughout, we did not think of glass at the time. Would I prefer today in all cases.

Also there was a time when sand was filled into open tubes of racks. This was also nonsense and was tested itself. Very bad experiences I have with everything where sorbothane is included.

As long as the floor is concrete, vibrations from that direction should be of little concern. But, one of the two best systems I ever heard had the LP12 right next to the Isobarik. Barely 20 cm away, as well as the entire electronics. Why it worked? I don't know.

In fact a rack should decouple well (common opinion) and according to today's state only try and error helps. If it is a vibrating floor (laminate) helps a stone plate (I had a 50x50x3cm plate under each rack and "decoupled" with Blutack from the floor). If a wooden floor should be protected, we had put the smallest pieces of money under the spike, which also got a small spot of Blutack.

Oh well, the Linn Skeets have not survived an hour with me. Still testing, maybe it didn't work in my setup.

Anyway, the stability of a table or rack seems to be important. I would pay special attention to that.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by markiteight »

Great question, Defender! I don't think it's possible to find a definitive answer to your questions, but there is certainly no shortage of theories and speculation. Here's mine:
Defender wrote: 2021-05-28 11:08 What does a good rack need to deliver - questions?
Is it keeping vibrations which come from the ground away from the component?
Is it making sure that airborne vibrations/resonancies are efficiently taken away from the instrument making it flow into the ground?
Or is it both?
I think it's neither. The hi-fi world is rife with companies that have gone to great lengths to minimize vibrations and resonances in their systems. Few, if any, have been successful in improving the music. It is my conjecture that with systems like the Harmoni racks that are developed by ear with a focus on the music rather than the sound, the designer has accepted the fact that things vibrate, they will always vibrate, and trying to eliminate that vibration is a task that has no hope of success. Instead they tune the system so that those vibrations resonate in a way that is consonant to the music. The Ikea Lack is a good example. While it certainly wasn't designed using the tune method, it wasn't designed to minimize vibrations either. It rings like a bell! But that ringing is apparently (and purely accidentally) complementary to the music. This results in a "noisy" support that is so good musically that it inspired Anders to create his Harmonihyllan products.

It is also my theory that when positioning loudspeakers in a room using the tune method the result is that the speakers work with the room, rather than doing their best in spite of the space they're given. That is why a room with speakers tune method'd into place will almost never need additional acoustic treatment. Indeed trying to further tune the acoustics of the room usually leads to worse performance.

I think this idea of tuning the vibrations to the music extends to every aspect of the system. Fredrik often writes about the meticulous process of selecting components to fine tune the circuit designs in his products. Electrical circuits resonate. While those resonances are not the same as mechanical vibrations, their properties are weirdly similar. I suspect that this tuning process Fredrik employs is his unique method of optimizing resonances, rather than trying to reduce or eliminate them. I think its safe to say he's probably the only one who does this.
Defender wrote: 2021-05-28 11:08 Do have components like the LP12 different needs what the rack delivers compared to the Radikal or other components down the line? One example would be would the NOKTable be also usefull for the Radikal, Entity, Sagatun Monos.
I believe ThomasOK has written about this elsewhere, perhaps in his posts about developing NOKTable. IIRC his experience is that the LP12's support requirements are unique, and that what works best for it won't be optimum for other downstream components (or other source components, for that matter), and vice versa.
Defender wrote: 2021-05-28 11:08 I am in the process of trying out a coffeetable approach for the LP12 (fotos will follow) lightweight frame with spikes on both side placed on Linn Skeets.
You might consider also trying the table without the spikes. The goal is to find a solution that complements the music, regardless of what potential "benefit" spikes might bring to the party. Trust your ears.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by beck »

Great writeup markiteight!

I totally agree with you.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by lejonklou »

Yes, great post markiteight!

Optimizing a HiFi system is mostly empirical. You need to be able to tell better from worse in a reliable and preferably fast way. Then the findings will create patterns, which you should preferably note and always be ready to discard.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

thank you all for taking the time for contribution - I know especially the longer post take a lot of time - so thank you. There is already a lot of useful information.

yes Peter absolutely like in the picture you attached

here are two clips about what can make a difference which one is more musical?

clip 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kv9ptqs229k4c ... 5.mov?dl=0

clip 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/orfflkqcgkwn6 ... 7.mov?dl=0
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by beck »

Really interesting set of clips Defender!

I would imagine that they could divide people.

The difference is quite big. I prefer clip 2.

Why did you change speakers?
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by John »

I’ve posted this before:
John wrote: 2018-10-18 13:11 I’ve experimented quite a bit with SO, Audiotech, Archidee dedicated supports, Audiotech and Mana wall shelfs and Mana amp rack with Soundstages and a Mini table. My most memorable moves were removing the Trampolin, moving the LP12 away from a suspended wood floor and studded wall shelf to a solid poured concrete basement floor.

My later experimenting with Symposium Rollerblocks and absorption platforms under my loudspeakers and integrated amp resulted in a conversation with Peter at Symposium which resulted in my modification of a solid Linn baseboard, bolting brass cones to the four corners and placing the deck on one of their absorption platforms. This arrangement facilitates energy draining from the plinth and isolates the deck from the support structure. I’ve been very pleased with the results.

Image
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by John »

This is the stand arrangement for my loudspeakers on the suspended wood floor.

Image
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Spannko »

John wrote: 2021-05-29 18:28

My later experimenting with Symposium Rollerblocks and absorption platforms under my loudspeakers and integrated amp resulted in a conversation with Peter at Symposium which resulted in my modification of a solid Linn baseboard, bolting brass cones to the four corners and placing the deck on one of their absorption platforms. This arrangement facilitates energy draining from the plinth and isolates the deck from the support structure. I’ve been very pleased with the results.

Did peter explain how the arrangement manages to transfer energy in one direction yet not the other?
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

I agree Beck I prefer the second clip too even though there are certain qualities I like with clip 1.
I made the clip because Hermann said he had no luck with Linn Skeets and so far whenever I tried them I ended up also not happy with them - seems they dont like my floor. Clip 1 is Linn Skeets - Clip 2 is normal

Speakers - my other ones had been 18 years old and I got afraid about the crossover components turning old (I know my friends here with briks might laugh about that)and also had the feeling the air motion transformer sounded a little bit „hot“ and the bass seem to cloud some of the upper frequency range. Well and one weekend I offered them out of an emotion at ebay kleinanzeigen and they sold within 3 hours - maybe the price was fair enough - than I got a good deal on the Dynaudios as no one seems to want them anymore after the new model is out.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by ThomasOK »

Hi Defender, I haven't had a chance to listen to the clips yet (pesky customers keep wanting to have my attention). But I was wondering what "normal" is? is that with the spikes into the wood floor or is there something else under the points?
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by John »

Spannko wrote: 2021-05-29 18:54
John wrote: 2021-05-29 18:28

My later experimenting with Symposium Rollerblocks and absorption platforms under my loudspeakers and integrated amp resulted in a conversation with Peter at Symposium which resulted in my modification of a solid Linn baseboard, bolting brass cones to the four corners and placing the deck on one of their absorption platforms. This arrangement facilitates energy draining from the plinth and isolates the deck from the support structure. I’ve been very pleased with the results.

Did peter explain how the arrangement manages to transfer energy in one direction yet not the other?
http://www.symposiumusa.com/tech1.html
Last edited by John on 2021-06-01 19:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by ThomasOK »

Defender wrote: 2021-05-29 10:00 here are two clips about what can make a difference which one is more musical?

clip 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kv9ptqs229k4c ... 5.mov?dl=0

clip 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/orfflkqcgkwn6 ... 7.mov?dl=0
Now I've had a chance to listen and I prefer clip 2 as well. Although both are good I find clip 1 just seems a little flat in comparison.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-05-29 20:05 .. clip 1 just seems a little flat in comparison.
+1 (=2)
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

Clip 2 is having the usual metal disks under the spikes - I am picky about the wood floor ... my children can tell
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2021-05-29 18:54
John wrote: 2021-05-29 18:28

My later experimenting with Symposium Rollerblocks and absorption platforms under my loudspeakers and integrated amp resulted in a conversation with Peter at Symposium which resulted in my modification of a solid Linn baseboard, bolting brass cones to the four corners and placing the deck on one of their absorption platforms. This arrangement facilitates energy draining from the plinth and isolates the deck from the support structure. I’ve been very pleased with the results.
Did peter explain how the arrangement manages to transfer energy in one direction yet not the other?
Good question! All those theories... Nearly all of them are just stories.
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by lejonklou »

Defender wrote: 2021-05-29 10:00 thank you all for taking the time for contribution - I know especially the longer post take a lot of time - so thank you. There is already a lot of useful information.

yes Peter absolutely like in the picture you attached

here are two clips about what can make a difference which one is more musical?

clip 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kv9ptqs229k4c ... 5.mov?dl=0

clip 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/orfflkqcgkwn6 ... 7.mov?dl=0
Clip 2!
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Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-29 22:42
Spannko wrote: 2021-05-29 18:54
John wrote: 2021-05-29 18:28

My later experimenting with Symposium Rollerblocks and absorption platforms under my loudspeakers and integrated amp resulted in a conversation with Peter at Symposium which resulted in my modification of a solid Linn baseboard, bolting brass cones to the four corners and placing the deck on one of their absorption platforms. This arrangement facilitates energy draining from the plinth and isolates the deck from the support structure. I’ve been very pleased with the results.
Did peter explain how the arrangement manages to transfer energy in one direction yet not the other?
Good question! All those theories... Nearly all of them are just stories.
My thoughts, exactly!
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