Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Hardware and software, modifications and DIY

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
John
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 369
Joined: 2012-02-23 13:42
Location: United States

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by John »

Spannko wrote: 2021-05-29 18:54
John wrote: 2021-05-29 18:28

My later experimenting with Symposium Rollerblocks and absorption platforms under my loudspeakers and integrated amp resulted in a conversation with Peter at Symposium which resulted in my modification of a solid Linn baseboard, bolting brass cones to the four corners and placing the deck on one of their absorption platforms. This arrangement facilitates energy draining from the plinth and isolates the deck from the support structure. I’ve been very pleased with the results.

Did peter explain how the arrangement manages to transfer energy in one direction yet not the other?
This link explains how a cone transfers energy and why rubber feet don’t.

http://www.symposiumusa.com/tech1.html
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Spannko »

John wrote: 2021-05-30 18:48
Spannko wrote: 2021-05-29 18:54
John wrote: 2021-05-29 18:28

My later experimenting with Symposium Rollerblocks and absorption platforms under my loudspeakers and integrated amp resulted in a conversation with Peter at Symposium which resulted in my modification of a solid Linn baseboard, bolting brass cones to the four corners and placing the deck on one of their absorption platforms. This arrangement facilitates energy draining from the plinth and isolates the deck from the support structure. I’ve been very pleased with the results.
Did peter explain how the arrangement manages to transfer energy in one direction yet not the other?
This link explains how a cone transfers energy and why rubber feet don’t.

http://www.symposiumusa.com/tech1.html
There’s no mention of rubber feet in the article, and I think I’m right in saying that rubber feet most certainly do transfer energy.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2021-05-31 01:30
John wrote: 2021-05-30 18:48
Spannko wrote: 2021-05-29 18:54

Did peter explain how the arrangement manages to transfer energy in one direction yet not the other?
This link explains how a cone transfers energy and why rubber feet don’t.

http://www.symposiumusa.com/tech1.html
There’s no mention of rubber feet in the article, and I think I’m right in saying that rubber feet most certainly do transfer energy.
There are three mentions. Ctrl F works.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by V.A.MKD »

Defender wrote: 2021-05-29 10:00 thank you all for taking the time for contribution - I know especially the longer post take a lot of time - so thank you. There is already a lot of useful information.

yes Peter absolutely like in the picture you attached

here are two clips about what can make a difference which one is more musical?

clip 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kv9ptqs229k4c ... 5.mov?dl=0

clip 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/orfflkqcgkwn6 ... 7.mov?dl=0
Clip 2 for me ...
Music First ...
Vlado
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

thank you all for your contribution. I am right now working on my self made rack. Realizing how the many things make a difference makes me understand how important a good rack/support is. That made me also read into Harmoni.
Is there meanwhile a consensus what performs better - the Tor (full bredd) or the Yggdrasil (kompakt)? I assume the Yggdrasil is the kompakt version of the Tor. And the Idun is the kompakt version of the Oden?
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Tendaberry »

Defender wrote: 2021-06-15 09:51 thank you all for your contribution. I am right now working on my self made rack. Realizing how the many things make a difference makes me understand how important a good rack/support is. That made me also read into Harmoni.
Is there meanwhile a consensus what performs better - the Tor (full bredd) or the Yggdrasil (kompakt)? I assume the Yggdrasil is the kompakt version of the Tor. And the Idun is the kompakt version of the Oden?
I would read up on the latest developments regarding Harmonihyllan, before progressing with your own project:
https://www.harmonihyllan.se/nyheter.html
You might get some new ideas...
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

Thank you Tendaberry its funny I just did that and saw that Anders has a new rack called TRUD and its two different thicknesses of birch laminated together. It should sound more harmonic than Oden and Tor and Mimer K? which would be quite an achievement.

I already finished my rack yesterday which is a 3 layer spruce material (used because it was easily available and should happen to stay completely flat but it isnt.)

I might do a recording tonight. But so far I am not completely impressed - that tells you how difficult it is.
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Tendaberry wrote: 2021-06-15 12:08 I would read up on the latest developments regarding Harmonihyllan, before progressing with your own project:
https://www.harmonihyllan.se/nyheter.html
You might get some new ideas...
Thanks for posting that link Tendaberry, it looks as if the new shelf could be used specifically for the LP12. Which makes me wonder how it sounds compared to the NOKTable (versus the cost). I was holding off from getting an audio rack from Harmonihllan, but might consider getting their newest version now. Plenty to think about...

Cheers
Tony Tune-age
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

Yes Tony isnt it difficult to justify spending the same money like for a new component for a rack - but on the other hand it would be an upgrade to all the components you place onto the rack so its maybe worth it.

I happen to realize how much damage you can do placing the components on a wrong support - or to put it more nicely how much those components can increase if you place them on the right support.
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Tony Tune-age »

I definitely know all about that...for sure! Been there and done that...as they say.

Cheers
Defender wrote: 2021-06-15 15:18 Yes Tony isnt it difficult to justify spending the same money like for a new component for a rack - but on the other hand it would be an upgrade to all the components you place onto the rack so its maybe worth it.

I happen to realize how much damage you can do placing the components on a wrong support - or to put it more nicely how much those components can increase if you place them on the right support.
Tony Tune-age
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Tendaberry »

Defender wrote: 2021-06-15 12:50 Thank you Tendaberry its funny I just did that and saw that Anders has a new rack called TRUD and its two different thicknesses of birch laminated together. It should sound more harmonic than Oden and Tor and Mimer K? which would be quite an achievement.

I already finished my rack yesterday which is a 3 layer spruce material (used because it was easily available and should happen to stay completely flat but it isnt.)

I might do a recording tonight. But so far I am not completely impressed - that tells you how difficult it is.
I don't know anything about your construction, but did you consider getting the DIY-Kit from Harmonihyllan? Just add your own shelves. If you're not happy with your existing boards, you could have a carpenter remove some of the material in the middle to make it hollow and glue it together with a thin board of airplane grade plywood...
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by V.A.MKD »

Defender wrote: 2021-06-15 12:50 I already finished my rack yesterday which is a 3 layer spruce material (used because it was easily available and should happen to stay completely flat but it isnt.)

I might do a recording tonight. But so far I am not completely impressed - that tells you how difficult it is.
Spruce is good material, you have to be on a good way.
I have very good experience ... and sound musical ...
Music First ...
Vlado
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by matthias »

I dare to say considering some Swedish products that the second best preamp on the best rack is more musical than the best preamp on the second best rack.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Spannko »

My advice would be as follows:

Start with a design. Anything. It doesn’t matter.

Then make a change. Does it take you further away from where you want to be, or closer?

Then change what you changed. Does it take you further away from where you want to be, or closer?

Which ever way it takes you, start to develop a hypothesis.

Test your hypothesis. Does your hypothesis hold water? Yes? Then develop it. No? Then drop it.

Trust your gut feeling and don’t be afraid to pick up a previously dropped hypothesis!

Don’t follow rules! Be curious. Why do you think A is better than B? Test it out. If your hypothesis is wrong, generate another one! Sooner or later, patterns will start to emerge. Don’t look for them. Just let them pop up and make themselves known to you. Let them take the lead. Follow them and see where they take you.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by lejonklou »

Perfect advice, Spannko!

In my opinion, this is the only way to do it.

Nearly everyone who ventures into these domains have some kind of technical background. Either they're engineers, technically skilled or simply have a lot of practical experience. And the main obstacle in their way will be their preconceptions, theories based on either something they read or something they've created based on previous experiences. And it will always stand in their way of making true progress.

A reliable and preferably quick way to tell better from worse is the most important skill.
An open mind that can instantly ignore theories and preconceptions and simply take in the actual result is the second most important skill.
Orka is the third most important skill (perseverance, stamina, grit).
Theoretical and practical knowledge is the fourth most important skill.
The ability to observe patterns, make theories and mentally create new ideas that combine theory with the practical results is the fifth most important skill.

One thing that continues to surprise me is the amount of Orka that is always required. It would be really nice if there were some short cuts that actually worked, but every time it turns out that one has to work all the way down to where the rabbit hole bottoms out until something remarkable appears.
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by beck »

I agree completely with the two gentlemen above.

In the end we all have to make as good a job as possible at adapting the hifi equipment we use to the invironment it is put into so that the result becomes a musical one.

The tolerance for getting an optimum musical result is very, very narrow.

To me it is all about vibration. The whole system has to vibrate in a harmonic way to allow a musical result.

The road to get there can be a long and tiresome one and your ears are your only hope.
Playing cd’s…………
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by springwood64 »

beck wrote: 2021-06-16 07:36 The road to get there can be a long and tiresome one and your ears are your only hope.
For me, the journey and discovery is itself enjoyable, and I've learned not to rush.

After a while, once I've settled on and confirmed an improvement, my curiosity stirs again and I look for another area to investigate. Even if it turns out to be a dead end, I enjoy the investigation because I always learn something, and I get a little bit better at listening.
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by beck »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-06-16 08:11
beck wrote: The road to get there can be a long and tiresome one and your ears are your only hope.
For me, the journey and discovery is itself enjoyable, and I've learned not to rush.

After a while, once I've settled on and confirmed an improvement, my curiosity stirs again and I look for another area to investigate. Even if it turns out to be a dead end, I enjoy the investigation because I always learn something, and I get a little bit better at listening.
Absolutely Springwood64! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Defender »

thank you for all your comments lets see how far I go ;)

yes matthias you are right about what you wrote ... are you also using a Harmoni Rack?

Tendaberry I was not aware there is a DIY self kit available.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by matthias »

Defender wrote: 2021-06-16 16:33 yes matthias you are right about what you wrote ... are you also using a Harmoni Rack?
No, or better not yet, you knows.......
When you consider that the best Harmoni Rack for only one component, the new BORD, costs 3650 Euros.
But I can imagine that a LP12 or Källa on the BORD sounds terrific.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Tendaberry »

Defender wrote: 2021-06-16 16:33Tendaberry I was not aware there is a DIY self kit available.
The kit is around € 290,- per level, so not that cheap either. But it is available and as someone, who has followed the various developments of the Harmonihyllan, I know how meticulous Anders (the designer) is in selecting even washers and bolts according to tune dem.
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by V.A.MKD »

Tendaberry wrote: 2021-06-16 17:08
Defender wrote: 2021-06-16 16:33Tendaberry I was not aware there is a DIY self kit available.
The kit is around € 290,- per level, so not that cheap either. But it is available and as someone, who has followed the various developments of the Harmonihyllan, I know how meticulous Anders (the designer) is in selecting even washers and bolts according to tune dem.
Thank you Tendaberry, excellent info ...
Music First ...
Vlado
Freddy
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 84
Joined: 2012-07-05 21:55
Location: Sweden

Re: Understanding what a good rack needs to deliver

Post by Freddy »

I got shelfs from a construction shop for my second Harmony rack. https://www.bauhaus.se/hyllplan-paulownia-18x400x800mm
This Paulownia wood is very light and stiff. It also looks very good. I think it sounds excellent even compared to my original Harmony rack with Mimer and Tor shelfs. Not better but not far off either compared to Tor.
V.A.MKD wrote: 2021-06-16 17:13
Tendaberry wrote: 2021-06-16 17:08
Defender wrote: 2021-06-16 16:33Tendaberry I was not aware there is a DIY self kit available.
The kit is around € 290,- per level, so not that cheap either. But it is available and as someone, who has followed the various developments of the Harmonihyllan, I know how meticulous Anders (the designer) is in selecting even washers and bolts according to tune dem.
Thank you Tendaberry, excellent info ...
Post Reply