Connecting channels internally

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Music at Home
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Connecting channels internally

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When using the short red/balck twisted cable for connecting adjacent channels in the Chakra amps, is the connection directional? In other words, if I link channel 1 and channel 2 together, does the signal go from the output of channel 1 to the input of channel 2, therefore the connection from the pre-amp *must* go into channel 1. Or, is the connection bi-directional and I can chose to conect the pre-amp to channel 2 and still have the signal routed to channel 1 via the internal link?

Looking inside the chakra (Majik) amps, channel two is closest to the back panel with the shorter signal path for audio input. Channel 1 is up against the front panel and it looks like the input signal needs to sneak its way along the full length of the amp board to get to channel 1. Channel 1, on the other hand is right next to the power connection to the amp board and therefore seems better suited to the higher current demands of bass duty.

On the face of it, it appears better to use channel 2 for the tweeter, channel 1 for the bass. However, it also seems theoretically better to connect the pre-amp directly to the channel driving the tweeter and let the channel driving the bass be fed via the internal link

So, if I want to use Ch 2 for the tweeter, Ch 1 for bass, is this possible with an internal channel connection and the signal from the pre-amp connected to channel 2?

If the connection is bi-directional and I can feed the pre-amp into either channel, doesn't that imply that the link cable is simply connecting the two inputs together and the pre-amp is driving both (or more) channels simultaneously rather than driving just one channel with the other channel being driven from the buffered output of the first channel.
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lejonklou
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Re: Connecting channels internally

Post by lejonklou »

Hi MaH!
Music at Home wrote:So, if I want to use Ch 2 for the tweeter, Ch 1 for bass, is this possible with an internal channel connection and the signal from the pre-amp connected to channel 2?
Yes, the internal links only connects the inputs to each other. There is no directionality in the circuitry, so you can go either way.

But the internal link is in itself slightly (cable) directional. Try it both ways and compare! One way sounds slightly better. And while you're at it, make sure this link is twisted exactly 7.5 turns. This makes a bigger difference to the sound than the direction, in my opinion.

I have done some comparisons with channel swapping in the Majik and Akurate power amps with various speakers, but right now I can't remember all the combinations. I do think, however, that the preferred way was to run the treble with the channel closest to the power input. That is; the opposite of what you wrote.

I do agree that you should preferably run the signal from the preamp to the treble amp, and then let the internal link carry the signal to the bass amp.

Good luck and please do report your findings if you find the time to make any comparisons!
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Post by Music at Home »

Thanks Fredrick,

Sounds like I need to do a few comparisons, including connecting externally using Linn Silver interconnects. Seems like I also need to remember to reverse the direction of the internal link depending on whether I'm going Ch1 --> Ch 2 or Ch 1 <-- Ch 2.

I'm a little surpised that the internal link is simply joining both inputs together, although I admit it's the simplest/most flexible solution. From the perspective of the pre-amp's output and what it 'sees', this arrangement is going to look quite different to just a single power-amp input. Now it's got to drive one input, then the link cable then another input. Seems like a likely source of sonic difference right there and one that might have a detrimental impact on both channels (not just the degradation of feeding the 2nd channel with inferior cable/connectors). I have a feeling that external linking with Linn Silvers is going to be the way to go but I'll need to do the comparison.

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Post by lejonklou »

Music at Home wrote:From the perspective of the pre-amp's output and what it 'sees', this arrangement is going to look quite different to just a single power-amp input.
Yes, essentially it becomes two inputs in parallel. Normally this shouldn't affect the preamp's performance much. I tried up to 5 parallel channels (which you get when driving 242's) with the Kikkin, using just one channel for listening, and there was just a tiny bit of difference in performance compared to driving just the one channel I listened to. With tiny I mean that it was detectable, but it didn't feel important at all. (Please note that unlike some other companies, I don't make any "there is no difference" claims :wink: )
I have a feeling that external linking with Linn Silvers is going to be the way to go but I'll need to do the comparison.
Paolo reported that he thought Silvers were clearly better than the internal connections. But this is only due to the sound quality of the cables. Electrically it's the exact same connection as the internal: You are simply joining the inputs together.
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Post by Music at Home »

lejonklou wrote:Electrically it's the exact same connection as the internal: You are simply joining the inputs together.
Hi Fredrik,

Are you sure that's the case? I also own a Klimax Chakra Twin and I remember from the owners manual for this, and also the Klimax Solos, that it discusses how the input signal is relayed to the low level outputs for daisy chaining to other power amps via "distortionless solid state switches", i.e. buffered outputs rather than simply joining the input and output sockets together. I'd assumed that Linn had applied the same design principle to the Akurate & Majik amps.

I've just read the Majik power amp owners manual and it doesn't doesn't mention anything that might imply the amp has buffered outputs so you could be right! If so, it should be possible to prove by connecting the pre-amp to one of the amp's output sockets instead of an input socket and the amp should still work as normal. Which one of us is going to try it :D

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Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote:
Music at Home wrote:From the perspective of the pre-amp's output and what it 'sees', this arrangement is going to look quite different to just a single power-amp input.
Yes, essentially it becomes two inputs in parallel. Normally this shouldn't affect the preamp's performance much. I tried up to 5 parallel channels (which you get when driving 242's) with the Kikkin, using just one channel for listening, and there was just a tiny bit of difference in performance compared to driving just the one channel I listened to. With tiny I mean that it was detectable, but it didn't feel important at all. (Please note that unlike some other companies, I don't make any "there is no difference" claims :wink: )
I have a feeling that external linking with Linn Silvers is going to be the way to go but I'll need to do the comparison.
Paolo reported that he thought Silvers were clearly better than the internal connections. But this is only due to the sound quality of the cables. Electrically it's the exact same connection as the internal: You are simply joining the inputs together.
Fredrik when Linn say 'There is no difference' I'm sure they mean there is no reason for there to be a difference ...I very much doubt they would come out and say there is a definite improvement because its in a different case (lingo and full size Lingo)..that is why they keep away from the heretic stuff like supports and mains cable make a difference ..I think you would have to prove why ,then you'd be under pressure to to develop it..maybe..I dont know..what do you think..I mean, it is Glasgow..not Belfast ..'aye it might stay afloat..'
I know that tune
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Post by lejonklou »

Yes I'm sure, you can use the OUT just as well as the IN on all Majik and Akurate amps. Also on all the older Linn power amps that allow daisy chaining.

The same is true for Klimax Solo, it has two RCA/phono connectors that are joined together and also with the HOT pin of the XLR connector.

The Twin doesn't have any second RCA/phono that can be used for daisy chaining. But you can use the XLR connector, which is connected just like in the Solo.

I don't believe there is anything to gain in sound quality by switching or buffering between different power amps when daisy chaining. As the parallel load is no problem for the preamp, it will just sound worse.
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Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote:Fredrik when Linn say 'There is no difference' I'm sure they mean there is no reason for there to be a difference
Yes, that's how I usually interpret it. :)
I mean, it is Glasgow..not Belfast ..'aye it might stay afloat..'
:lol:
There's definitely a certain crowd that turns away when you start recommending mains cables. Or claim that the case or support is important for a DC motor controller. Or an all solid state digital stream player, for that matter. So Linn most likely have an official policy on these things. Sometimes different opinions slip out when you talk to a single employee, but then it's no longer an official standpoint.
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Post by Music at Home »

Thanks Fredrik, I’d assumed that there was some kind of buffer circuit between the input and output phonos but clearly that’s not the case. Anyway, my second 2100 turned up today so my own little project (and educational journey!) is now up and running!

In order to come to a personal decision on that age-old question: “better amps passive or lesser amps active” I’m slowly acquiring a few extra bits and pieces so I can compare Majik amps active to my normally resident Klimax Chakra Twin run passively. So far, I’ve had a couple of 2100’s turn up and until I get hold of a set of active cards for my Katans I can at least amuse myself by playing around with bi-amping using the 2100’s.

I'm trying to make this project as self financing as possible by picking up 2nd hand items at reasonable prices. Well interest rates aren't great at the moment so might as well take some money out and do something interesting with it. Hopefully I can put most of it back in again when I'm done :o

I’ve decided to dodge the internal link vs Linn Silvers comparison for now and just gone straight to Linn Silvers seeing as I had a spare pair doing nothing anyway. The downside of this is that it adds to the clutter behind the rack that soon builds up when you start multi-amping. Fortunately I had a bit of spare racking so I’ve drafted some of it into service and built a short rack to the side of the main rack so I can spread out a bit. I’ll still do the comparison with internal links at some point, maybe when I’m fully active.

Here’s a pic showing progress so:

Image
Last edited by Music at Home on 2009-06-03 00:07, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by lejonklou »

Nice!

What are those racks? Never seen them before.
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Post by Music at Home »

They're Hutter Racktime in Pear finish
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Post by k_numigl »

I can confirm that silver interconnects (outside) sound better than
the internal audio channel connectors.

I tested both versions yesterday with an A4200 feeding A242s. As
I was accustomed to the silvers, the internal solution was simply
disappointing. It is necessary to note that my silver ICs are not standard
silvers, but custom made 25 cm long cables with the (much cheaper)
black Linn RCA plugs. Perhaps things get even better with the
Linn silver plugs - I won't try (as I would need too many of them).

Source is LP12 only.

Regards, Klaus
Last edited by k_numigl on 2010-07-16 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lejonklou »

Early this summer I made some comparisons in a customer's aktiv 242 system with different connections. The internal links sounded sharper but musically they were very close to external Linn Blacks in performance.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Klaus, I know you don't want to hear this but the Silver RCAs are indeed better and by quite a large margin. When Linn Silvers first came out I made up a pair with Black RCAs figuring that Silver RCAs were a lot more expensive and couldn't possibly make that much difference. Boy was I wrong! After the comparisons I had to admit that the Silver RCAs might actually make a bigger improvement than the cable itself.

A few months later I was at a Linn training session with a quite knowledgeable trainer. He was going over the various products in the line. When he got to the interconnects he referred to the Silvers as "a better cable with a much better RCA connector" confirming my findings on the importance of the Silver RCAs.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the Silver RCAs really are worthwhile.

It really is a shame that Linn don't provide, at least as an extra charge option, an internal wiring system that is musically at least as good as external Silvers. It would make for a much neater installation and one would think it could be made to cost much less than all those Silver interconnects.
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Post by k_numigl »

Not really bad news, though, but welcome. In fact, if Linn puts this on their
agenda, the conjecture is not too far, that they must make some difference.
My expectation was that the cable would be more important....
If it is the other way round, I'm inclined to have a try with one set
(pre to power amp) and see how things develop (this is a 3m long
silver cable, presently black Linn RCAs).

But most urgent project is the plinth now. I collected it today
from the customs.

Regards, Klaus
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