Netgear GS108T Power Supply

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Defender
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Defender »

how did your project and the diodes develop?
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

“Mk1”, which was made up of stuff I had just lying around, wasn’t as good as the Netgear SMPS. “Mk2”, with different capacitors, worked really well, but the diodes were about 25 years old and are no longer made, so I started the search for a replacement. I’ve tried about 4 or 5 different diodes but none are as good as the old ones. A couple are really poor (musically and sound wise), and a couple have a decent sound (but still only as good as the Netgear), and with variable musicality (but still not as good as the Netgear).

I’ve got about 6 new diode sets on the way, so watch this space!
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

Image

We’re now onto DIY PS Mk4. Just in case you were wondering what happened to DIY PS Mk3; it blew up in spectacular style when I connected the rectifier diodes the wrong way round 🤣

Here’s a couple of tracks comparing the DIY PS with the Netgear:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/omel3qfdrxh ... EnHsa?dl=0

Enjoy 😁

PS. I’ll post the circuit diagram with component values as soon as I’ve drawn it up.

PPS. Mk4 is really just for your entertainment, and because it beats taking the dog for yet another walk 🤪. For me, it’s got some OK qualities, but some problems too.
Last edited by Spannko on 2020-03-28 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by beck »

Spannko, you are one of the reasons I love this forum! :-)

When you started posting clips a long time ago I simply could not understand what had made you buy your system.
Now you are finding gold with your investigation of that same system!

Amazing work. 👍👍👍
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

🤣 thanks beck 👍

Buying my system was literally a leap of faith, and I think (hope!) I made the right choice. If linn made a musical network switch and Ethernet cables, it would have worked perfectly from the beginning, which in my view would be a good business decision for Linn cos I’ve heard some dam awful dems of linns Exakt systems, and it’s all down to dealers using unmusical network components. This must be costing Linn and their dealers a fortune in lost sales.

I’ve added a circuit diagram to the vids to show how simple the circuit is and maybe encourage a few people to have a go themselves.

The components being used are as follows:

Transformer: It’s a toroidal but I’m not sure of the rating. Measuring the output without a load suggests that it’s 230V to 2 x 15V. Comparing the size to other transformers suggests that it’s a 50VA transformer. The plan is to stick with 2 x 15V secondary’s and try 30VA, 80VA, 120VA, 160VA & 225VA transformers eventually.

Diodes: I’ve tried quite a few, and they’ve all been worse than the old BYW98-150 (which are no longer made) except for some ST Microelectronics STTH 3R04 which can be heard in the video. I’m going to try and find some NOS BYW98’s to replace the ones I may have damaged (with all the soldering in and out of the different circuits), to check that I’m not missing the chance to find something even better.

Capacitors: They’re Panasonic FM 1000uF, currently in a bank of 14. There’s no special reason for using 14 other than I was scared to wire up the 20 I’ve got in case I somehow zapped myself or wired them up backwards again. Just one cap of 1000uF if frightening enough when it backfires ☠️ I intend to let them run in, and then reduce them one by one to see if there’s an optimal value of capacitance for this particular circuit. When the capacitance has been chosen, there’s quite a few other types of capacitor to try.

Voltage Regulator: I’ve got 11 versions made by different manufacturers to varying degrees of accuracy waiting to be tried out.


OK, that’s it for now. Enjoy 😷
Last edited by Spannko on 2021-10-03 23:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Defender »

is the difference between JH and SI just the music?
with JH I liked the DIY over the Netgear
with SH I was not sure to decide
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

Yeah, only the music changed.

I’d say you’re about right: the musical difference is only slight (if at all), and the sound difference is swings and roundabouts, as we say in old Blighty!

However, it’s really a test bed which will be used for further experiments when the sound has finally settled down. Interestingly, the sounds been a bit better tonight and almost enjoyable, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s gone off again by tomorrow.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Charlie1 »

I think I'd rather listen to music on your PSU Spannko. The Netgear seems too battened down to me and a bit boring.

My get out is that I don't have any headphones to use right now so am playing very quietly on laptop speakers.

I suppose Linn will have done the best they can within the realms of their influence, or chosen influence. But it appears that bigger gains are to be found upstream of the streamer itself, just as Fredrik reported here when he stopped work on the Hakai.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-28 23:59 I think I'd rather listen to music on your PSU Spannko. The Netgear seems too battened down to me and a bit boring.
I hadn’t thought about it like that, but I know what you mean.
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-03-28 23:59 I suppose Linn will have done the best they can within the realms of their influence, or chosen influence. But it appears that bigger gains are to be found upstream of the streamer itself, just as Fredrik reported here when he stopped work on the Hakai.
Yes, definitely. It’s really surprising how much of an effect the power supply to the switch has. So much so, that I’m wondering if all I’m really doing is finding a combination of components which injects the most musical (or the most complimentary, or even just the least) noise back into the mains, allowing the DS to work better? Whatever is happening, the outcome is the same - a more enjoyable experience.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2020-03-29 05:00 Yes, definitely. It’s really surprising how much of an effect the power supply to the switch has. So much so, that I’m wondering if all I’m really doing is finding a combination of components which injects the most musical (or the most complimentary, or even just the least) noise back into the mains, allowing the DS to work better?
No, that's not the reason why the differences are so big. You can easily check this by either running the switch off a completely isolated mains, adding "dummy" power supplies (that don't feed any component in your system) to your system's mains, or both.

I slightly prefer your DIY power supply to the standard one. Congratulations!
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-03-29 14:05
Spannko wrote: 2020-03-29 05:00 Yes, definitely. It’s really surprising how much of an effect the power supply to the switch has. So much so, that I’m wondering if all I’m really doing is finding a combination of components which injects the most musical (or the most complimentary, or even just the least) noise back into the mains, allowing the DS to work better?
No, that's not the reason why the differences are so big. You can easily check this by either running the switch off a completely isolated mains, adding "dummy" power supplies (that don't feed any component in your system) to your system's mains, or both.

I slightly prefer your DIY power supply to the standard one. Congratulations!
Thank you 😁

It’s good to know that it’s not about what’s going back onto the mains. Maybe then the diy ps will make the main router and house network switch sound better too. It would be great if it did!
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by beck »

I think it all can be related to how all the equipment we use (cables included) cope with the vibrations it produce by itself and the vibrations coming from the outside.
Vibrations interfere with the power running in the prints and cables by creating different electric fields around the same.

How equipment cope with these vibrations could determine the sound we hear at the other end......

Maybe cables only sound different because of the different vibration patterns they produce when used!?

My experiments with my cheap cd player have shown me that vibrations have a big say. I am having a blast listening to it now.


So maybe your DIY power supply is just better at coping with vibrations! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2020-03-29 15:32 It’s good to know that it’s not about what’s going back onto the mains.
No, in my experience this rarely accounts for the majority of the differences. It will, however, make SOME "noise" on the mains that can disturb other units. So the effect you mention is not Zero.

To evaluate how much, let PS number 1 feed the switch in use and let PS number 2 feed a switch (or similar) that isn't in use or connected to anything else. Then play some music and compare having PS number 2 plugged into the mains with having it unplugged from the mains.

This is quite an important test to run. Most likely your DIY PS has a very small impact on the system. But if it's dramatic, you'd better find out why.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2020-03-29 16:32 I think it all can be related to how all the equipment we use (cables included) cope with the vibrations it produce by itself and the vibrations coming from the outside.
Vibrations interfere with the power running in the prints and cables by creating different electric fields around the same.

How equipment cope with these vibrations could determine the sound we hear at the other end......

Maybe cables only sound different because of the different vibration patterns they produce when used!?

My experiments with my cheap cd player have shown me that vibrations have a big say. I am having a blast listening to it now.


So maybe your DIY power supply is just better at coping with vibrations! :-)
I don’t know for sure, but I think you’re possibly right beck.
Last edited by Spannko on 2021-10-03 23:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-03-29 18:24
Spannko wrote: 2020-03-29 15:32 It’s good to know that it’s not about what’s going back onto the mains.
No, in my experience this rarely accounts for the majority of the differences. It will, however, make SOME "noise" on the mains that can disturb other units. So the effect you mention is not Zero.

To evaluate how much, let PS number 1 feed the switch in use and let PS number 2 feed a switch (or similar) that isn't in use or connected to anything else. Then play some music and compare having PS number 2 plugged into the mains with having it unplugged from the mains.

This is quite an important test to run. Most likely your DIY PS has a very small impact on the system. But if it's dramatic, you'd better find out why.
Great suggestion. Thank you.
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The Journey Continues

Post by Spannko »

Here’s the latest version. Enjoy 😁

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hdmsjr3wxwv ... NaAqa?dl=0
Last edited by Spannko on 2021-10-03 23:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

Here’s the latest version (Mk 6) compared to the Netgear smps. The only difference is that it uses a Texas Instruments TL780-12 instead of the TI UA7812C.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uzi54nxb47d ... trGKa?dl=0
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Defender »

first I am always impressed how much music is coming out with the original Netgear power supply.
Mk5 was not particularly much different to me - maybe it is a fast rush of emotion but Mk6 put a smile in my face after just a few seconds - I really hope I am not wrong but thats the winner for me so far.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2020-04-03 17:51 Here’s the latest version (Mk 6) compared to the Netgear smps. The only difference is that it uses a Texas Instruments TL780-12 instead of the TI UA7812C.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uzi54nxb47d ... trGKa?dl=0
I don't know which is which, but number 1 is more tuneful to my ears.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-04-03 20:20
Spannko wrote: 2020-04-03 17:51 Here’s the latest version (Mk 6) compared to the Netgear smps. The only difference is that it uses a Texas Instruments TL780-12 instead of the TI UA7812C.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uzi54nxb47d ... trGKa?dl=0
I don't know which is which, but number 1 is more tuneful to my ears.
You preferred the Netgear.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by lejonklou »

Ouch. But your DIY certainly has something. Keep working! (And come join my crusade!)

When is your table being released? I'm all ears.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

I’ll definitely keep working on it - I’ve not got much else to do at the moment!
Last edited by Spannko on 2021-10-03 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by beck »

I have a feeling that your voltage regulator clips on the playground are more important than you give them credit for........

Good work!
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

Transformer: This has yet to be decided. My favourite to date was a 25 year old Antrim Transformers model which has now developed an open circuit on the primary winding. Antrim Transformers was bought by TransTronic many moons ago, and they confirmed that the one I have is a 50VA version which they can still make for me for £70 inc with a 6 weeks lead time. As luck would have it, I’ve managed to find the person who originally designed the transformer for Antrim. He now works from home, designing and building one-offs, but he’s not even taking orders for 6 weeks due to a high workload.

Diodes: Finding a replacement for the discontinued BYW98 diode, which has good musicality, hasn’t been easy. After trying 15-20 different designs, I think I’ve found a worthy replacement, both in terms of sound and musicality.

Capacitors: So far, I’ve only tried about 4 different capacitor types but 8 off Panasonic FM 35V 1000uF seem to work really well. I plan to try the other often recommended capacitors such as Nichicon etc at some point.

Voltage Regulator: I’ve got a bunch of different LM317’s I need to try

Output Capacitor: I need to try more types of capacitor,

I’ll post some videos later, but with a sub-optimal 120VA transformer I’m currently using. It’s got some nice qualities but its bass is not great,
Last edited by Spannko on 2021-10-03 23:51, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Netgear GS108T Power Supply

Post by Spannko »

Here’s the videos of the latest version.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8c0hfp3bkfx ... RFeqa?dl=0

Don’t expect too much, cos the transformer isn’t great, but it might give an indication of the direction it’s going in.
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