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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-29 23:24
by Charlie1
KeithRM wrote: 2020-06-29 19:40 My dealer spoke to Linn today. The motor is isolated from its casing and the casing is touching the foot where it has no affect on the Trampolin.
Maybe true for the Trampolin but the touching motor definitely had a negative impact on the musical performance of my deck as a whole.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-30 03:36
by Tony Tune-age
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-06-29 23:24
KeithRM wrote: 2020-06-29 19:40 My dealer spoke to Linn today. The motor is isolated from its casing and the casing is touching the foot where it has no affect on the Trampolin.
Maybe true for the Trampolin but the touching motor definitely had a negative impact on the musical performance of my deck as a whole.
Same here, total negative impact on my deck too! Absolutely nothing good can come from those two parts touching each other. It's a significant design flaw that has not been officially acknowledged by Linn. However, there are a few different ways to remedy the situation. Apparently the new Linn plinths are being made a little bit bigger, maybe around 67-68 mm. Just enough to keep the two parts from touching. Thomas placed spacers in my plinth, and that works perfectly.

Cheers

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-07-02 19:59
by Defender
you are right Charlie,
my LP is still on a Lack Table but I got now inspired by light metal frame coffee tables which I would like to modify with spikes and an own top board. So far my Radikal is not installed and also my Ekos is still not back from Linn but I think I might not go with the small wood stripes and rather take the suspended feets from my Trampolin board off and use it Base Board like with normal feets for the LP.

The main reason for this is that I have the impression that my trampolin feet got week at the back side of the LP12 - I leveled the lack table and with placing the LP12 with feets all in - the LP12 is still down at the back side where the motor/arm column is.

Maybe I am mental but I dont like that. When the table is level the plinth should be level and the platter should be level too. I know that I can level the Lack table so plinth and platter are level (and Lack table is not anymore) but thats not how it works for me 😂

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-07-02 21:55
by ThomasOK
I'm afraid that's the only way it will work with a Trampolin and it's OK. The back of the LP12 is heavier than the front, and with an Ekos SE it is especially heavy on the right back. This will cause the LP12 to sit a bit lower at the back and sometimes lower yet on the back right. On my LP12s I do set the spikes on the stand to make it unlevel so that the LP12 on top of it is level. It works just fine as long as you can adjust your expectations.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-09-26 23:54
by bryamacada
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-07-02 21:55 I'm afraid that's the only way it will work with a Trampolin and it's OK. The back of the LP12 is heavier than the front, and with an Ekos SE it is especially heavy on the right back. This will cause the LP12 to sit a bit lower at the back and sometimes lower yet on the back right. On my LP12s I do set the spikes on the stand to make it unlevel so that the LP12 on top of it is level. It works just fine as long as you can adjust your expectations.
Besides the Trampolin foot, the Urika cables and Radikal motor may be in contact. Due to very limited space inside the plinth, the power and signal cables from the Urika actually run very close , if not touching, the base of the Radikal motor. This sort of cable-to-motor contact should be prevented for optimum sound reproduction.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-09-29 22:10
by ThomasOK
I agree. I always clamp the cables so they are as far away from the motor as possible. I also position the part of the cable clamp that sticks out on the side away from the motor to avoid contact. It is very tight in there.

Radikal Pictures through Trampolin and measurements

Posted: 2020-12-30 17:56
by Defender
I just installed an Akurate Radikal to my LP12 which replaced a Lingo 2. As I am aware through this forum I wanted to make sure things are not touching. I used a different approach and include pictures.

At first I took off the feet underneath the Radikal Motor.
E7C74506-C601-4797-B5FE-754C03EE1273.jpeg
590190A5-7C93-4E45-B37F-693D0D31C095.jpeg


you see there is clearance for the Trampolin feet screws on both sides of the Radikal Motor (normal Trampolin).
The Radikal motor is not overlapping with the hole where the Trampolin feet goes through so touching might only happen at the rim of the feet or if the feet is pushed in because of the weight, however it will not touch the rubber elevation in the middle ... that is to far away from the Radikal motor.

I have a normal Trampolin and an Urika Trampolin (without an Urika) - they are slightly different. The screws in the Urika Trampolin are longer and the holes for the screws especially and only for the feet underneath the Radikal Motor have a slight offset from the other Trampolin feet holes (0 - 90 - 180 - 270 vs 10 - 100 - 190 - 280 degrees) That makes one screw get closer to the Radikal Motor (the one in the first picture) where the second one is more far away. Reason is probably that Linn realized that one of the other screws for the feet might touch the Radikal cable where the cable leaves the plint.

I measured the distance between the Radikal Motor and the Trampolin surface with different Allen Keys.
The 4mm one did fit - the 4.5mm didn’t so that means I have little more than 4mm space.
211AF15B-05D3-4711-9329-BEAC5959198F.jpeg
The Trampolin feet has a thickness of 3.2mm makes about 0.8mm clearance.

But I found out that the Trampolin feets from the Urika trampolin are all slightly thinner with about 2.8mm so I moved all Urika Trampolin feets to the normal Trampolin to give me more space. For some reasons I didnt wanted to use the Urika Trampolin.

Means I should have about 1.2mm clearance.
My plint is 66mm high - people with a plint of only 65mm will for sure end up with trouble.

However what I dont understand is the engineering quality of Linn - the Trampolin has a thread in the board and in the feet - that makes no sense I call that an overdetermined system which only creates trouble. The same is true for the Radical sensor bracket - it has a thread in the bracket and in the top plate - also overdetermined.
Usually only the Trampolin feet should have a thread and the board should have a hole and the Radikal sensor bracket should have a hole and the top plate has the tread.
Anyway maybe there is a reason for it.

It does not replace the paper stripe test which Fredrik/Paolo recommended as only that makes sure the feet is not touching the Radikal motor under load conditions.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-01-02 11:23
by Defender
as I was working on the LP12 again to optimize bounce (with no success ... just burning daylight) I also checked the clearance with the paper stripe test and as expected the clearance is fine on my LP12.

However I saw the Trampolin feet screw closest to the Radikal cable exit touched the Radikal cable and poked a dent in the isolation so make sure you strip that one screw down by 2mm

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 13:10
by csfan
Radikal was launched in 2009.
Lejonklou highlighted the LP12 Radikal issue in April 2018.
How was it during these 9 years for early adopters of the Linn DC motor kit like me?

Early on, like Charlie1, I experienced the “one piano note” disappointment compared with my other AC motored deck.
And soon I had doubts about the wobbly feet which come with Radikal.
The design of the acoustic isolation of the LP12 is based on its suspended sub-chassis.
Could it be that the way Radikal is built creates what Defender calls in his recent post, an "overdetermined system"?

In this case Radikal comes not only with one but with two potential problems!

With every upgrade (including a new plinth installed by my Linn retailer who checked for DC motor clearance) I invested too much time experimenting with all sorts of shelves, tried Matteo’s solution and many others.
And each time the best and most consistent result was to by-pass the wobbly feet.
My solution is, I must say, quite radical (see photo), has anyone else tried this?!

Radikal by-pass - Lejonklou forum.jpg

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 14:48
by David Neel
If I've seen that correctly, you have put the spikes into the plinth holes, where normally the original, non-Trampolin, feet would go? Does it make any difference whether the Trampolin is fitted, or not, with this arrangement?

I'm using the original small feet, and no baseboard, since replacing my Urika with Entity.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 15:22
by csfan
Yes, what you have seen is correct, the slightly blunt spikes are exactly where the original small feet would go.
They are in contact with the plinth only, not the Trampolin (still in place as my LP12 is fitted with Urika-1).
With Karousel the benefits are even more obvious.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 16:07
by Defender
I was thinking about using the baseboard instead of the trampolin to get around this problem but was advised that with the trampolin it sounds better

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 16:49
by David Neel
Defender wrote: 2021-02-08 16:07 I was thinking about using the baseboard instead of the trampolin to get around this problem but was advised that with the trampolin it sounds better
There are different generations of baseboard, with varying rigidity, and I think that a primary function is/was to ensure electrical safety. Back in the day, there were those who thought that the LP12 sounded better without the early baseboard. Maybe this was the reason for changing materials - to add rigidity? Is it possible to remove the Trampolin feet and use the old feet instead? As a trial?

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 16:53
by Charlie1
I recall Linn came out with a slightly different baseboard in the early 90s. Funny what you remember from so long ago but I do recall it made a slight improvement. Even recall one of the tracks I played.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 17:00
by csfan
Defender, it all depends!

On Linn's website;
"The Solid Base provides a fixed, rigid platform for your deck (...)
If your turntable is placed on a cabinet or shelf that provides its own isolation from vibrations, then this is the perfect base board for you.
Alternatively, choose the Trampolin base board (...)".

I think that Linn cannot possibly provide a consumer product without a base board.
The LP12 reputation started when the base board had no other purpose than safety.
It was a light wood compound of some sort, and if you remember the first Trampolin feet appeared on this very board (I still have one in my collection!).
The current aluminium base board adds rigidity to the plinth which is welcome with Trampolin (and Urika).
But remove the base and the LP12 can still play records.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 18:47
by sktn77a
KeithRM wrote: 2020-06-29 19:40 My dealer spoke to Linn today. The motor is isolated from its casing and the casing is touching the foot where it has no affect on the Trampolin.
"My dealer spoke to Linn today."

Old post, perhaps, but I hear this quite a lot on Lejonklou and other message boards. Who was "Linn"? Was it an official spokesperson? A designer? Engineer? Sales "manager"? There are several examples of where "My dealer spoke to Linn today." flies in the face of experience, testing and listening; this would appear to be one of them.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 19:17
by csfan
David, no need to remove the Trampolin feet to try the old feet.
As an experiment you could do as I did.
My favourite shelf with Trampolin was thin and rigid and inexpensive.
I made four holes in a second, similar shelf to allow the Trampolin feet to hang freely (Urika base board requires an additional hole at the rear).
I was not too convinced by the old feet, perhaps because my shelf was tuned to Trampolin.

Another experiment was to bypass the Trampolin feet with plastic cups, simply to try to understand.
Three cups were better than four, but this was a dead end.

At some point with my direct-on-spikes experiments the Trampolin feet were removed from the base board.
Not something I would recommend for practicality and because the Trampolin material is good at bringing some sort of dampening to the base board.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-08 22:42
by David Neel
Thank you! You've obviously experimented more than me... I wasn't clear about my question at all! What I was thinking was whether you had tried the original feet in the place of your spikes, and whether that was even possible.

I understand about your shelf being tuned to Trampolin. I've tried several different racks/tables since a wall-mount became impossible, and discovered that despite trialling highly rated ones, for me with (then) a Urika, the Quadraspire Bamboo worked best. Now I no longer have any baseboard at all, just the original feet, and I'm wondering whether some cones might work better...

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-09 09:23
by imarcel
Is it possible to remove the Trampolin feet and use the old feet instead? As a trial?
i use the old feet with the urika baseboard. i removed the trampolin feet completely. i had to take away a bit of the "nose" of the baseboard where the cables come out, because of it touching the table.
the lp12 sits on a "time table"- support.
for me it is more musical this way, i was never happy with trampolin. maybe because the "time table" was developed using the old feet ?
marcel

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-09 18:58
by ThomasOK
You can just unthread the Trampolin feet and leave the rubber upper parts in place while testing the original style feet. The metal studs will still stick down but will not touch the shelf with the original feet on. Speaking of original feet, they have changed over time with the newer ones that come on Majik LP12s being a little shorter and lighter so you might want to check both types. Speaking of changing over time, the baseboard has gone through several versions with most of them being a fiberboard, sometimes brown and sometimes painted black, sometimes rough and sometimes smooth. When Linn came out with the original Trampolin they used melamine for the board. At around that time they switched the baseboard to melamine as well and used the same 9 or 10 mounting holes to the plinth as the Trampolin. I believe this was when they started calling it the Solid Base. Then Linn went to a damped aluminum sheet with a ground lug for the Trampolin 2. A damped aluminum sheet with a ground lug soon followed for the Solid Base. So if you are going to not use a Trampolin I would recommend the aluminum solid base, unless you prefer no baseboard.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-10 18:06
by csfan
Thank you ThomasOK, your post brought me back to when I was much younger!

Your baseboard change-over-time section provides more food for thought and ends up with "(...) no baseboard".
Unfortunately, it is not an option for me.
My main system needs a baseboard because I use Urika.

Urika is a brilliant idea.
But the way it is implemented creates a major change.
The plinth still holds all the LP12 key components, but the feet are not on the plinth, they are on Urika's Trampolin-like baseboard.
I find this inconsistent with the original philosophy of the LP12 design.

On the one hand, Trampolin is possibly good for Urika MC circuitry.
However, on the other hand, it prevents the plinth from being in sole charge of the acoustic isolation.
The overall result is a compromise, which btw could explain why some LP12 enthusiasts among us have started to look elsewhere.

With Urika my most successful experiment is to mount my Klimaxed LP12 plinth directly on the wall bracket spikes (the newer original feet didn't work for me).
It provides awesome 3D results with all sorts of music and I can listen for hours non-stop.

I have two other vintage LP12's which are not wall-mounted.
I am considering buying a jig and was wondering if it could (unorthodoxly) serve as a stand as well.
Have you ever played records while the LP12 is still standing on the Linn jig?
How does it sound?

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-10 22:33
by dasher
Strangely I did just this tonight - I placed the LP12 in the jig to break it down and, before doing so, wondered what it might sound like. It is very harsh- quite 'CD' like - in a way that CD can sound when very hard. It's not a relaxing listen!

I'm thinking that the progression of the LP12 is actually completely in the opposite direction - where the topplate becomes a unit with the trampolin and the sub chassis sits between the two - suspended as now, from the topplate. The plinth then becomes almost decoration. This may sound heresy - as some people j=love the sound of one plinth over another. Logically though, if 100 plinths sound different to each other, at least 99 are incorrect.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-10 23:14
by ThomasOK
Unless 100 are incorrect. Such is life, there is no perfection on this plane, just the pursuit of perfection. First answer to the question is that I listen to LP12s in the jig all the time as I do all my tuning while in the jig. Second answer is I don't recommend it as the place to put your LP12 when listening to music for enjoyment.

I have always found the Trampolin 2 to be a musical improvement over the Solid Base and normal feet. I did try it with my Urika by screwing off the regular feet with the originals already mounted in the corners< as I mentioned above, and felt it was clearly better. This was done on a Target wall shelf, an Audiotech stand and on my NOKTable. I understand from the comments of others that the Trampolin does not work well with the Mana stands nor with the TimeTables, but I have no real experience with either of them. I haven't tried spikes directly into the plinth and the idea does sound interesting. I may have to try it sometime.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-10 23:30
by dasher
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-02-10 23:14 Unless 100 are incorrect.

Duly edited!

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2021-02-12 21:44
by csfan
Thank you Dasher and ThomasOK, you helped me save £288.59 worth of Jig!

If I may attempt an analogy, the LP12 is a racing-car and with the Jig you tune it to perfection.
Once on the road, it is the tyres which will make the difference.
Linn's 'tyres' are limited to its standard and Trampolin feet.
My problem is that my 1920 house is like a bumpy road, and my LP12 cannot reach its full potential with Linn tyres.

In my "pursuit of perfection" I only focus on mechanical improvement with respect to the LP12 design.
For instance, Linn claims that, with Keel "We’ve eliminated screws, fixings and joins between each component so that virtually all vibration is removed, providing you with a more faithful reproduction of your music collection",
I also try to eliminate as many potentially vibrating components as possible in my installation.
By putting the plinth (any sort as they are all "incorrect" 😉) directly onto spikes I eliminate two components vs standard feet and four vs Trampolin feet.

ThomasOK I am happy you said you may try this out.

In my experience dating back many years, I have found there are four variables to consider:

1) the bracket material and how it is mounted on the wall. A simple piece of rubber placed anywhere on the bracket may relax the sound.

2) the nuts. I have found better results with flange anti-slip nuts, avoiding separate washers.

3) the spike material, I have tried iron, brass and nylon. With iron the effect is clear, perhaps a little too clear, although it doesn’t sound harsh. With brass the sound is more relaxed. Five years ago I placed a friend’s LP12/Radikal/Urika/EkosSE/KoetsuRosewood/StandardWalnutPlinth on brass spikes. He constantly experiments with new shelves for his CD12 and electronics and uses the LP12 to copy vinyls onto CD's via a Tascam Pro CD recorder. He has never changed this LP12 configuration. With nylon I have achieved the best balance in my system, which also reduces sibilant sounds in the voices of old recordings - something that no Linn feet can do for me.

4) the spikes positioning. They may be placed almost anywhere under the plinth provided they have no contact with the baseboard. Note that, because they are soft and somehow slippery nylon spikes can only be used if positioned exactly where the standard feet would be.