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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-13 12:09
by Peder
🔴 Some news about this great Scandal within the LP12-world..??

Now that Linn comes with Karousel,.have they fixed this.....
🔸"LP12-Radikal Problem"

Or puts Linn still his head in the sand,.and denies that the problem exists.

/Peder🤔

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-13 15:05
by Spannko
I don’t know about the Radikal malarkey, but welcome to the forum Peder. I’ve seen your posts on the Naim forum and I think you’ll feel right at home here! 🤗

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-13 20:34
by Defender
is this the Peder from the Naim Forum who wrote about the Cisco switches? Welcome! And enjoy a wealth of experience here too.
I dont think the Karousel will change anything related to the Radikal issue as it will not change the space which is simply not there.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-14 10:54
by Tendaberry
I will report on this, when I get my freshly ordered LP12 in April.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-19 13:14
by Defender
Hi Peder
I saw you mentioned in another thread you didnt got an answer for your question if the Radikal problem has been solved.
Tendaberry was so nice and said he will inform you as soon as he have his new LP12.
As there are not so many people who are buying a new LP in this forum the only ones who can answer your question are dealers.

I am sorry that my post doesn’t help you in the way you might have hoped but maybe it makes you understand better why there is not much information.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-21 17:16
by ThomasOK
I think the answer would depend on your definition of solved. The plinths I have seen on newer LP12s for about the last year or more have generally been 66mm, including our demo Majik LP12 with the new Majik arm, and none of them have had the problem. However our demo Klimax LP12, which is over two years old has a 65mm plinth and does need the spacers. So you could say that it seems Linn has solved the problem for new LP12s, but there has been no retrofit from Linn for older LP12s with the problem nor any admittance that there is a problem, and I do not expect there will be.

The spacer Charlie1 talked about was for the problem with the Lingo 4 and I have not heard anything further on this. It was not something for the Radikal/Trampolin2 problem.

Seeing as the reports on the Linn forum had been hinted as one of the reasons that forum was shut down, and the reception your dealer had from Scotland, you can see why many dealers might not want to talk about it.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-21 18:26
by Charlie1
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-03-21 17:16 The spacer Charlie1 talked about was for the problem with the Lingo 4 and I have not heard anything further on this. It was not something for the Radikal/Trampolin2 problem.
Oh, sorry Thomas - wrong end of the stick.

Thanks for clarifying.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-22 15:24
by Tony Tune-age
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-03-21 17:16The plinths I have seen on newer LP12s for about the last year or more have generally been 66mm, including our demo Majik LP12 with the new Majik arm, and none of them have had the problem. However our demo Klimax LP12, which is over two years old has a 65mm plinth and does need the spacers. So you could say that it seems Linn has solved the problem for new LP12s, but there has been no retrofit from Linn for older LP12s with the problem nor any admittance that there is a problem, and I do not expect there will be.
Very worthwhile information for sure. And you're probably 100% correct about Linn having no admittance to an existing problem, or a retrofit for older plinths. Perhaps other Sondek plinth makers will have to change their dimensions as well.

Cheers

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-24 17:16
by ThomasOK
Actually, Chris Harban changed his plinth dimensions years ago having realized that there could be a fitment problem. He even sold me a plinth or two at a discount as they weren’t tall enough to comfortably fit a Radikal.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-24 21:09
by Tony Tune-age
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-03-24 17:16 Actually, Chris Harban changed his plinth dimensions years ago having realized that there could be a fitment problem. He even sold me a plinth or two at a discount as they weren’t tall enough to comfortably fit a Radikal.
It's really impressive that Chris Harban was able to recognize the potential problem, and then make the necessary changes long before Linn! He's an excellent business person, in addition to having excellent woodworking skills.

Cheers

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-25 10:19
by V.A.MKD
Tony Tune-age wrote: 2020-03-24 21:09
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-03-24 17:16 Actually, Chris Harban changed his plinth dimensions years ago having realized that there could be a fitment problem. He even sold me a plinth or two at a discount as they weren’t tall enough to comfortably fit a Radikal.
It's really impressive that Chris Harban was able to recognize the potential problem, and then make the necessary changes long before Linn! He's an excellent business person, in addition to having excellent woodworking skills.

Cheers
Chris Harban plinths are that good in sound as well ... ???
I have not have opportunity to hear any of this Legendary CH Plinths ...

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-26 17:11
by Tony Tune-age
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-03-25 10:19
Tony Tune-age wrote: 2020-03-24 21:09
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-03-24 17:16 Actually, Chris Harban changed his plinth dimensions years ago having realized that there could be a fitment problem. He even sold me a plinth or two at a discount as they weren’t tall enough to comfortably fit a Radikal.
It's really impressive that Chris Harban was able to recognize the potential problem, and then make the necessary changes long before Linn! He's an excellent business person, in addition to having excellent woodworking skills.
Chris Harban plinths are that good in sound as well ... ???
I have not have opportunity to hear any of this Legendary CH Plinths ...
In my opinion, absolutely...100%. My original Linn plinth was afrormosia, and it sounded nice. I eventually decided to purchase a movingui plinth from Chris, which is one of his better sounding plinths. And some would say it's his best sounding wood plinth. In any case, it's hands down better sounding than my previous Linn plinth. No regrets at all, and still happy with my decision!

Cheers

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-27 10:53
by V.A.MKD
Tony Tune-age wrote: 2020-03-26 17:11
V.A.MKD wrote: 2020-03-25 10:19
Tony Tune-age wrote: 2020-03-24 21:09
It's really impressive that Chris Harban was able to recognize the potential problem, and then make the necessary changes long before Linn! He's an excellent business person, in addition to having excellent woodworking skills.
Chris Harban plinths are that good in sound as well ... ???
I have not have opportunity to hear any of this Legendary CH Plinths ...
In my opinion, absolutely...100%. My original Linn plinth was afrormosia, and it sounded nice. I eventually decided to purchase a movingui plinth from Chris, which is one of his better sounding plinths. And some would say it's his best sounding wood plinth. In any case, it's hands down better sounding than my previous Linn plinth. No regrets at all, and still happy with my decision!

Cheers
Thank you very much for your answer and be strong ... it's hard time for all of us ...

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-03-28 18:54
by ThomasOK
I have been very pleased overall with the plinths Chris Harban makes. However, each plinth wood has a different sound and there are also variances from one plinth to another. I don't want to go over old ground that much here so see this thread for a fair bit more information:

https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... lit=plinth

Some additional information. While I have in general found the Harban movingui and cocobolo plinths to be the most musical (and my own movingui to be the best I have heard), the Harban ebony is likely in the same category and a refinished Linn cross braced rosewood is also quite close. I was not able to do a direct comparison of those two with any others, but I have now worked with so many plinths that I can tell pretty much how it will sound by the tap tone. In my experience, no other measurement: hardness, density, weight, even resonance tests, will tell you what a plinth will sound like. But the tap tone will if you know what to listen for. The best sounding plinths have a very melodic tone the with a good range of frequencies. Tap tones with a bright or overly ringing sound will sound forward on an LP12, those with no bass range will sound bass shy, those with limited high end will sound soft as if there was a slight high filter, etc. So what you want is a tap tone that has a little ring, but not a long one, a balanced sound frequency wise and a melodic tone with no hash, harshness or out of tune sound. This is what I hear from the plinths that have the best musical quality.

Now, there are exceptions to every rule, which is why I mentioned unit to unit variation. I have a sterling example of that in the plinths I evaluated and installed for one customer who lives quite a ways away from me. He had bought two plinths from Chris, a movingui and a catalox (which I had never heard of) yet he ended up using a Linn afromosia on his better LP12. However, this wasn't quite a stock afromosia plinth. This customer was involved in house design and was very into quality wood, as could be seen in his gorgeous house. So he took his afromosia plinth to a quality professional woodworker and had him true it up very precisely: flatness of top and bottom and the inner wood strips, with a precise distance from the top so the stainless steel top plate fit properly. Then it was refinished. He said the catalox was the worst being bright and hard sounding. I asked him if he had tried a tap tone and he said he had and it sounded like a bar of steel! Not good.

I went out to his house in Virginia to set up his two LP12s and I took them both apart so we could evaluate all three plinths. The catalox was definitely hard sounding, the movingui was good but not as good as some others I had heard and the afromosia was indeed the most musical. So the afromosia went on his main LP12, the movingui on the one he keeps at his office and the catalox probably went on eBay. I ended up spending another day torquing all his electronics once he heard the difference it made on the Radikal, and he bought a driver so he could experiment further.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-04-01 08:08
by V.A.MKD
Hi Thomas,
Thank you for your excellent post and sharing with us your rich experience ...
Wood and Tap Tone is essential ... but from beginning ...
Many years ago my system was on home furniture and one day I decide to make proper ruck. At that time, only good solution available was glass. I made it and comparing to "furniture" it was improvement but ... I think that wood will be better ... After some time, on the market shows "Cherry Slabs" ... reaction was immediately and result was comparing to glass much better. In the mean time I find that Spruce is quite a good option a lot of usage in HiFi, but as well in Instrument Making Industry ... but I cant find what I need. One day I find, in DIY shop German supplier ... good German quality and ... This was and still is my best rack ... made of Spruce Slabs. Sounds great, but I want more ... for each component additional and again good result ... but ... There is always but ... One day I find close to my town a Violin Maker that produces string instruments and the price go 60k Eur and up ... Is it OK or not ... but I find that he have Top quality Spruce, naturally dried, Tap Tone Selected, 5+ years at least stays in his storage ...
He have two secrets Spruce Supplier and all Recipes for different varnish for his instruments ...
So Tap Tone and those Spruce Slabs will be my next "project" for all components ... not now ... but in near future, after this madness go ...

P.S. Several posts from here have to be in "The Sound of LP12 Plinths" ...

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-28 12:04
by KeithRM
Hi all,

Just joined the forum after reading this thread. Many thanks for the swift approval 😊

I’m on the verge of upgrading from the Lingo 4 to the Radikal, as part of the Karousel offer, but am now concerned that it will be touching my Trampolin 2 as my plinth is 65mm high.

I have shown my dealer this thread. He was unaware of the issue but will contact Linn next week. I suspect he will get reassurances that it’s fine and rarely happens. I also suspect he will be reluctant to insert strips of wood when he fits the Radikal, although I might be able to persuade him to do the paper test.

I do have a solid base in the loft and he would probably be happy to try that and the Trampolin to compare. Am I right in thinking solid base might sound better if there is contact using the Trampolin?

Keith

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-28 14:32
by Peder
🔹Hi Keith,..this is the big problem.....

Retailers who are not on forums and social media,.do not know about this....
"LP12-Radikal Problem".

This because Linn Denies that it is a problem (they must be deaf).
Linn says instead that this is within the specifications.
Again, Linn must be DEAF.

Unfortunately,.Linn has lost all their credibility with this actions.
Linn refuses to take responsibility for their Iconic Product LP12.
Instead,.they leave their loyal customers to their fate.
This means that many,many around the world play on faulty LP12's

•And yes,.there was one here in northern Sweden (Per),who discovered this...
"LP12-Radikal Problem".
So we have had a lot of contact with Linn,.and Linn's MD Gilad about this.

🔸Per also sent his incorrect LP12 to Linn,.it came back without having fixed the error. With a message,.that there was nothing wrong,this was within the Specifications..!!

I have much,much more to tell.
But the important question is.....
Do You Still Trust Everything Linn Says..??

Here disappeared for me....
• Linn's Pride
• Credibility
• Reputation.
And I've owned an LP12 since 1983.

/Peder

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-28 14:46
by V.A.MKD
KeithRM wrote: 2020-06-28 12:04 Hi all,

Just joined the forum after reading this thread. Many thanks for the swift approval 😊

I’m on the verge of upgrading from the Lingo 4 to the Radikal, as part of the Karousel offer, but am now concerned that it will be touching my Trampolin 2 as my plinth is 65mm high.

I have shown my dealer this thread. He was unaware of the issue but will contact Linn next week. I suspect he will get reassurances that it’s fine and rarely happens. I also suspect he will be reluctant to insert strips of wood when he fits the Radikal, although I might be able to persuade him to do the paper test.

I do have a solid base in the loft and he would probably be happy to try that and the Trampolin to compare. Am I right in thinking solid base might sound better if there is contact using the Trampolin?

Keith
Hi Keith,
Welcome at the Forum ... the best place on planet ... :)
Here are the best experts in LP12 issues, so you will get the best option ... :)

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-28 14:50
by KeithRM
Hi Peder,

Yes, it was you who alerted me to it on the Naim forum 👍😃

My dealer has done a great job looking after my deck over the years, but he does tend to believe in the one true path (so no 3rd party mods).

Part of my question was if the sold base should sound better than the Trampolin if the Radical touches the Trampolin foot. I know it’s not ideal but, if it sounds better then would show there is problem?

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-29 14:18
by Peder
🔹Hi Keith 😃.

What happened,.see that your "LP12-Radikal Problem" thread on Naim's forum has disappeared.
Do you know why..??

/Peder🤔

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-29 15:25
by Matteo
Cymbiotic long arm?

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-29 15:38
by Peder
🔹Matteo,.I think it seems strange,.here wrote members about the problem.
Without directly criticizing Linn.

Helps Naim really Linn,.to try to silence this..?

/Peder🤔

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-29 19:40
by KeithRM
Hi all,

Yes, I’ve not had any explanation although I suspect it was because it veered into modification territory.

My dealer spoke to Linn today. The motor is isolated from its casing and the casing is touching the foot where it has no affect on the Trampolin.

Anyway, the Radikal has been ordered.

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-29 20:31
by Defender
actually your question is interesting - as that was what I am asking myself
But I don’t know however I have a feeling that the solid base and non touching radikal motor sounds better than Trampolin 2 with Radikal touching motor

I am even ready to strip the feet of my Trampolin 2 of if its touching and use it as a „solid board“ with solid board feet. But I am not sure what the influence of the now 4 open holes (where the feet have been) is on musicality (I dont think there will be an issue with less stability of the board).

Maybe it also depends on the support you have the LP12 on (base board vs trampolin2)

Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Posted: 2020-06-29 23:00
by Charlie1
Don't you have a Lack table Defender? I think old school plinth feet work well with the Lack and I would have thought fixing the touching motor is more important than the type of baseboard in your case.

However, in order to better understand the impact of the motor issue, you will need to do it in steps. First, replace Tramp feet with plinth feet and get used to it. Secondly, remove the tramp foot housing that impacts the motor. Thirdly, swap Tramp for a baseboard if you wish.

What about the wooden strip approach and keep your Tramp?