LP12 Radikal problem

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beck
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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Edit: I am sorry. Bad mood.
Last edited by beck on 2018-05-27 12:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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@ Charlie1
I remember when I bought the composite upgrade foot to my Ninkas.
They had some quality issues, had to drill the holes up, and when they were fitted also had cosmetic issues, variating stone pattern. It got more irritating to look at for each day, so I went back to my dealer with them.
He contacted Linn and I got them replaced without any fuzz. These items cost around 200 euro at the time and my Linn system in total cost less than a Radikal do today.
Linn (and Lejonklou :-)) can exist for one reason only: customers with extremely high requirements.
Without you (us) Linn wouldn't sell one single Sondek.
If your plinth is manufactured during the same times span as Radikal have existed it is a clear manufacturing defect and you should require a new plinth, they are not very expensive compared to the rest of the Sondek and is probably the simplest way to fix the issue. In my opinion you are making Linn a favor doing this, helping them sorting their QA and attitude issues.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Stephan »

when designing the Radikal, the first question asked must have been: how much space do we have.
They probably measured this on one Sondek with rather "large" plinth, added a bit of tolerance and mistake done...
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Charlie1 »

Stephan wrote:If your plinth is manufactured during the same times span as Radikal have existed it is a clear manufacturing defect and you should require a new plinth, they are not very expensive compared to the rest of the Sondek and is probably the simplest way to fix the issue. In my opinion you are making Linn a favor doing this, helping them sorting their QA and attitude issues.
The plinth is new.

I agree with you but they will just say that it doesn't matter because it's not impacting the main suspension - i.e. the motor is no different to the plinth in forming a connection between top plate and Urika. They will claim there is no performance loss.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

This is not the wrong place and it has nothing to do with the phono stage which is only a Slipsik 5.1 as that is what I had available. I’ll also mention that even though this piece isn’t fast paced I find the album quite enjoyable and do find myself getting caught up in the emotion of the music (which isn’t necessarily happy, as in this tune about whether a slave mother should give up her child). I accept that American roots music isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but I find Rhiannon Giddens voice and music quite a pleasure.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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ThomasOK wrote:This is not the wrong place and it has nothing to do with the phono stage which is only a Slipsik 5.1 as that is what I had available. I’ll also mention that even though this piece isn’t fast paced I find the album quite enjoyable and do find myself getting caught up in the emotion of the music (which isn’t necessarily happy, as in this tune about whether a slave mother should give up her child). I accept that American roots music isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but I find Rhiannon Giddens voice and music quite a pleasure.
You certainly caught me on the wrong foot (and day). I am sorry.
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Tony Tune-age
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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ThomasOK wrote:A couple of clips for you all to listen to. Let me know what you think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ip4hcnfljopja ... 0.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pa267yobosv34 ... 1.MP4?dl=0
Interesting clips ThomasOK, thanks for posting. After listening to both clips five times each, I'll try to describe the differences between them. And although it's not easy describing sound with words, I'll do my best. Both of these clips were played, and listened through my Hewlett Packard computer system. And for me, it would have been better listening in person than through my computer.

Clip 1: All of the instruments (along with vocals), had a wider range of frequencies and sounded more like a live performance. The decay of musical notes sounded more life like, and the timing was realistic sounding as well. Perhaps more free style sounding.

Clip 2: Sounded very focused, clear and more like a studio recording. The instruments sounded good, but not as wide open as the first clip. The vocals sounded good, but more like a studio recording also. The decay of musical notes and timing seemed to have a more controlled style of sound.

I'll play these clips for other people as well, and will report back with their findings and/or opinions. By the way ThomasOK, what album is that? I like it...so far!
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

I do seem to have made this one a bit difficult. It was a new LP12 that I had the time to try with the motor pressing against the T2 foot and with the wood strip mod. As it was a brand new turntable the Adikt, Akito 3 and wiring had no time to burn in. The first clip is before the mod and the second clip is after.

I did find it easier to hear the differences on my EarPods and iPhone than on the store iMac. To me there is a bit of slurring and tubbiness to the first clip where I find I enjoy the music more with the second one. The difference is not as big as what I found when I did the store demo Klimax LP12 but that unit has many hours on it and a more resolving arm and cartridge so it shouldn’t be surprising. This LP12 also had a plinth height of 65mm (the most common height I’ve seen since I started measuring them a couple weeks ago) so it wasn’t pressing as hard together as the 64mm one I worked on a couple weeks ago, although the paper strip test showed the motor and foot were indeed in contact. If I get another opportunity to do before and after clips of a more fully loaded LP12 I will post them here.

The album is “Freedom Highway” by Rhiannon Giddens and is her second solo work. I like the whole album and highly recommend it if you like the music in this clip. I recently bought her first album but haven’t had a chance to listen to it yet.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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I much prefer the second clip ( using my i phone ), which sounds good.

The first does not; and to my ears there is a timing issue which is very noticeable at the beginning before the vocals start.

It would be an interesting to compare this first clip to a stock Majik LP12.

Is this an issue only with Radikal and Trampolin ?

I have the original baseboard and my Black Ash plinth ( 2015 /16) measures 66mm.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by beck »

After listening to the clips in many different ways finally I went the PA system way and that revealed to me that I end up agreeing with Charlie1 and u252agz.
Tony Tune-age are on to things that I also notised and kind of agree with but in the end I hear it as unnatural (timing and harmonics).
Having experimented with my own Sondek I know for a fact that it can produce some very special sounds when one try unconventional things. I have believe it or not had my Sondek produce 3d like sounds pushed out in my listening room to my amazement. In the end it was just too weird.
Charlie1 to my mind hit it on the nail the first time.
Charlie1 wrote: I can only describe the first clip as a bit 'weird' (kind of psychedelic) compared to the second. The second just seems normal.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Spannko »

u252agz wrote:I much prefer the second clip ( using my i phone ), which sounds good.

The first does not; and to my ears there is a timing issue which is very noticeable at the beginning before the vocals start.

It would be an interesting to compare this first clip to a stock Majik LP12.

Is this an issue only with Radikal and Trampolin ?

I have the original baseboard and my Black Ash plinth ( 2015 /16) measures 66mm.
Agreed.

The timing is way off in the first clip. Even without comparing, it’s obviously wrong, even before the vocals come in. Listening to the second clip just confirmed my thoughts.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

It only is a problem with a Trampolin/Urika and the Radikal. On those bases the Trampolin foot mounting ring sticks up a few mm above the board. With a standard baseboard or the metal solid base that comes on the Majik LP12 those protrusions are absent so the baseboard has good clearance from the motor.

The slurring I commented on was referring to the timing although that may not have been clear. I think the sense of timing might be the biggest part of the problem this causes.
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Tony Tune-age
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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Thanks for the artist name and album title Thomas, I have added it to my vinyl list. Enjoy the long holiday weekend.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by u252agz »

ThomasOK wrote:It only is a problem with a Trampolin/Urika and the Radikal. On those bases the Trampolin foot mounting ring sticks up a few mm above the board. With a standard baseboard or the metal solid base that comes on the Majik LP12 those protrusions are absent so the baseboard has good clearance from the motor.

The slurring I commented on was referring to the timing although that may not have been clear. I think the sense of timing might be the biggest part of the problem this causes.
Good to know my Majik base is clear of the Radikal motor - thanks.

I find on the clips that the timing on the affected deck to be so fundamentally awry, that if this was reflected in real life, I could not listen to it. And if this is exaggerated on the Klimax SE deck, than Linn have a real problem on their hands.

The company should manufacture plinths which can easily accommodate the Radikal motor and sell them as part of the Radikal package, increasing the price if neccessary.

For existing customers, they should have their dealers replace all Radikal/ Trampolin decks with these plinths, free of charge.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by beck »

Now back to grumpy me!

I have all the way found these latest clips a bit uneasy to listen to. When I compare with your own system at home Thomas I find the timing in these clips a bit academic (not free flowing). Even the best clip. Your own system has an ease to the timing worthy of live music.
I know that it can be so many different things that influence the result but I fear that Linn is moving the Sondek away from what I love about it.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

It's hard for me to consider you grumpy when you pay me such a nice compliment. But I have to say I certainly hope my system at home is more musical and enjoyable. For starters, my LP12 has an EkosSE/1, a Kandid, a custom Woodsong Movingui plinth (still the best I have heard) and a very high state of tune. The LP12 in the clips was purchased by a person who understood the hierarchy (or just read a lot on the right forums) so it has a Radikal and Keel with an Akito 3 and Adikt. As mentioned it also isn't close to burned in yet, which tends to free things up musically in my experience. So we are starting out with more information pretty early on. Then the Slipsik 5.1, as good as it is, is not up there with a Urika (but then there are new devices coming).

Then you have the rest of the setup which I still need to update in the My System section. But it is safe to say that the Harmoni racks are a good deal more musical than the Quadraspire Sunoko and you already have an idea of how good the speakers are. Finally add in positioning things to a level that some would call insane and would also cause domestic disharmony in many homes and I certainly hope you have a recipe for more music finding its way through.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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Out of interest. What speakers did you use making these clips?
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

Vandersteen Quatro 4TCs. They are a bit different design but I think they are pretty good with the Lejonklou electronics.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

Another set of before and after clips. First clip is before the mod, the second clip is after. This LP12 has Radikal/Keel/EkosSE and Harban Movingui plinth with a Koetsu Urushi Vermillion LOMC cartridge going through original T.Kable into a Uphorik.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbtll516knee5 ... 2.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qw64rnnn8frrd ... 3.MP4?dl=0

This LP12 has a plinth height just under 65mm. There is also a little difference between this table and some of the others I have done.

Here is a photo of the whole system for those interested:

Image
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Charlie1 »

Nice looking system and listening room.

The first clip (without fix) just sounds really odd. I can understand the ‘seasick’ comments too. Linn do need a permenant fix for this imo.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by beck »

I had to listen a couple of times but agree with Charlie1. Still, for each time you post these clips your own system and old linn cabling (speaker and t- cable) sounds so much more tuneful. I actually get a headache when trying to listen into these clips.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by tokenbrit »

Charlie1 wrote:Nice looking system and listening room.

The first clip (without fix) just sounds really odd. I can understand the ‘seasick’ comments too. Linn do need a permenant fix for this imo.
Interesting that you mention seasick as in the first two clips the not corrected clip sounded swimmy to me but it seemed to work with the song and the singing style, so I had a problem picking which was right...
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for the clips, Thomas!

I found a bigger difference between these last two than the previous two (although I did like the song in it!)

I feel that with clip number one, it's difficult to tap my foot to the blues. Its rhythm is wobbly. Clip number two just feels right.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by u252agz »

I am really struggling with the pre mod clip, and as with the previous example, find the timing to be so far out as to make it unlistenable .

The second post mod clip is good and very musical , in keeping with a high end system.

Looks like there are quite a few LP12 Radikal/ Urika owners who are going to be in for a very nice upgrade when they get their modification done.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

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ThomasOK wrote:Another set of before and after clips. First clip is before the mod, the second clip is after. This LP12 has Radikal/Keel/EkosSE and Harban Movingui plinth with a Koetsu Urushi Vermillion LOMC cartridge going through original T.Kable into a Uphorik.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbtll516knee5 ... 2.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qw64rnnn8frrd ... 3.MP4?dl=0

This LP12 has a plinth height just under 65mm. There is also a little difference between this table and some of the others I have done.

Here is a photo of the whole system for those interested:

Image

It would be interesting to hear what happens when the Trampolin is switched to a standard baseboard on this deck.

If this sorts out the timing issue, it would potentially be a much easier modification for those not using a Urika.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

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