LP12 Radikal problem

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ThomasOK
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

Yep, that's the problem in a nutshell. I listened to A and wondered why Charlie1 recorded two and a half minutes of it, I didn't want to listen past the first few seconds but managed to make it to 19. Then I switched to B and listened to the whole thing. Sounds pretty good! Started B over and went for about 30 seconds than went back to A and realized I was better off stopping at 19 since some kind of nasty snare roll came in at 21 seconds - I couldn't make it past there!
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Charlie1 »

One of my favourite New Order tracks :) Recall buying the LP in Our Price, Slough on or around the release date. ‘Fine Time’ dated pretty quickly but there are some good tracks on it, like ‘Run’.

Maybe I’m being melodramatic but I am saddened by this more than anything. Just seems a great shame Linn chose to ignore it rather than own up to the problem and help their dealers fix it. I would like to have seen them act with the integrity and maturity not shy away from their mistake. It’s the sort of grown up behaviour we teach our children. As already stated by another member, everyone makes mistakes. I can’t deny being annoyed when I first heard of the problem, but it’s actually by their reaction that Linn has let themselves down.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by bonzo »

Thank you so very much Charlie for posting those 2 clips. While reading this thread I thought perhaps people were embellishing the degree of difference of the touching vs. not touching. (I actually think that I simply didn’t want to believe that this was true). So my question is.. now what. My deck is Klimax Radikal, original Urika with the upgraded trampolin (all very level) sitting atop a quadraspire wall shelf. As Charlie stated “The motor really touched the Trampolin foot. As I don't use the trampolin I just had to remove one rubber foot. Now the TT sounds almost as good as it should.”
Could I please ask someone if. It too much trouble to provide some pictures and/or step by step instructions to “test” as well as “correct” Is this something I can/should do? My dealer is 6 hour round trip and this seems like a lot (especially as the deck was tuned up <1yr ago. If I missed the information I’m asking I do apologize. Thank you all for your time.
(Man.. I’m really really loving everything about the music being played right now.. I almost don’t want to know.. but I will one way or another)
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by tokenbrit »

Just start at the 1st post(s) of this very thread, bonzo ;)
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by bonzo »

Well, that wasn’t Too embarrassing..
thanks for showing mercy on me ;)
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by tokenbrit »

bonzo wrote: 2019-03-09 00:30 Well, that wasn’t Too embarrassing..
thanks for showing mercy on me ;)
Why wouldn't I? I figure what goes around comes around ... especially on an LP12 thread :)
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Ianw »

Further to my earlier post, here are some photos documenting my implementation addressing the Radikal/Tramp foot issue.

A few points to note are:
1. The Balsa strips seem to be in contact with the Tramp foot; in fact they are not in contact, its down to camera angle.
2. The Urika cabling as shown was not optimal. I modified and dressed l cable runs so that both output signal cables exited cleanly via the dedicated chute. Also I re-routed the Urika power cable to pass under and across the signal cables to ensure a good exit point at dedicated plinth slot which is t the right-hand side of the chute. Finally I added foam/sponge wraps on all cable ties at supports. This dressing was done after I took the photos.
3. The paper template is shown on the worktop.

Oh dear I’m getting an error message when trying to upload photos from my iPhone.
Any guidance on uploading photos appreciated please!
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by tokenbrit »

Pic files are probably too large - they need to be under 200kb, or something like that...
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Chet »

Hi All,

I will be carrying out the modification myself this weekend. I would appreciate some help please:

1. From my local hobby shop I could buy Balsa wood or Basswood. Does anyone have a view on what would be best?

From Google 'Balsa will sand easier, but Basswood won't crush. You can squeeze a piece of Balsa, and totally deform it. You can also deform Balsa simply by cutting it with a dull knife. A “squeezed” piece of Balsa is weaker, because the internal structure is messed up.'
'Rot Resistance: Basswood is rated as being non-durable in regard to heartwood decay. Workability: Easy to work, being very soft and light. Perhaps one of the most suitable wood species for hand carving. Basswood also glues and finishes well, but has poor steam bending and nail holding characteristics.'

I can't help but think a harder wood would be better (Basswood) but I know Thomas (Guru!) has been using Balsa. I know there was also some discussion over Balsa being lighter, and that being better which I do not understand why lighter would be better? I feel heavier would be fine (Basswood)?

2. I am also checking (my plinth is 65mm high) that the sizes of the strips are suitable size 0.2 x 0.6 x 61 Centimetres (Approximately 1/16 x 1/4 x 24 Inches), pack of 5

3. Do I need to buy some longer screws or will the existing screws still do fine.

OK & just for fun, whilst googling I found this: Is Basswood good for guitars? 'Sound wise, Basswood has a warm tone. Strong Midrange, balanced tone and light weight.' Learn something new everyday...


Thanks,
Chet.
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Charlie1
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Charlie1 »

Alternatively, you could double up on standard feet and just remove the Urika foot base entirely. It sounds iffy but they still provide a good footing. I am not convinced by the Trampolin anyway but am in the monirity there. It's just a thought anyway.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8e0595f6sguau06/Foot.png?dl=0
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Spannko »

Isn’t there some law about “unintended consequences” or something like that? Predicting outcomes is notoriously difficult. As a guide, I’d suggest the following:

Balsa is a good one to try. It’s very easy to get thin sheets and cuts with a sharp craft knife. Compression shouldn’t be too much of a problem providing you don’t have 3 weetabix for breakfast! It has high self damping properties which may or may not be a good thing.

Sitka spruce is a great tone wood, and should be available from a luthier supplier. It has more of a ring to it, which may or may not be a good thing.

Don’t rule out mdf. You could get it laser cut to size very easily and cheaply. It’s self damping properties are somewhere between balsa and Sitka spruce, which may or may not be a good thing!

If I had to guess, I’d say go for ......... no, I won’t! Experience with these things tells me that it’s almost impossible to predict which timber will sound best in any particular situation, so I’d recommend trying at least 3 different types and seeing which one you prefer.

EDIT. I’ve just noticed that you’ve discovered that basswood has poor rot resistance and doesn’t take nails well. So that probably rules it out then!
Last edited by Spannko on 2019-03-15 14:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Chet »

Hi Charlie,

I guess you mean, remove the trampolin feet (only) & replace with solid feet?

I must admit i was sceptical about why a trampolin (springy) base would be better than a solid base, especially now as I have it sitting on a good wall shelf. However now I have a trampolin, I wouldn't bother changing it.

Cheers.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Chet »

Hi Spannko,

Thanks for the info. I think it would be a little too tricky for me in reality to try and source 3 different wood to try. Especially as I do not have a jig... I need this to be a one-time affair..

Cheers.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Charlie1 »

Chet wrote: 2019-03-15 14:23 I guess you mean, remove the trampolin feet (only) & replace with solid feet?
Yeah, so all 4 urika feet have been removed and the double height standard feet fitted instead. The important bit is unscrewing and removing the base of the Tramp/Urika foot that contacts the Radikal motor in order to free up the LP12 performance once again which is clearly hampered by this issue in quite an unpleasant way.
Chet wrote: 2019-03-15 14:23 I must admit i was sceptical about why a trampolin (springy) base would be better than a solid base, especially now as I have it sitting on a good wall shelf. However now I have a trampolin, I wouldn't bother changing it.
Best try it yourself and see what you think.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

I can't really comment on basswood vs. balsa from a musical standpoint not having tried both. From a theoretical point of view balsa seemed like a good idea to me. The compressibility isn't really a problem as it is making contact over a relatively large surface area and one of those surfaces will have felt strips on it, which are certainly more compressible. Also a small amount of compressibility might lead to a better fit against a wood surface that will not be very flat on a microscopic level. I would also hope that the tone quality of the wood will have minimal importance as it is such a small percentage of wood compared to the plinth structure and it is pressed between the plinth and the metal/felt strips of the Trampolin.

Again, this is all theoretical and I'd be glad if somebody with a lot of time on their hands tested basswood, balsa, Sitka spruce, movingui and cocobolo strips, just for a start!

It is my experience that the Trampolin has given an improvement on almost all surfaces, but I may test again with NOKTable once I have SINGularity here.

Edit: I forgot to mention that you might need longer screws for some positions but you might not. The screws Linn uses for all except the two center positions are not very long. They have also varied significantly over time in terms of thickness and spacing of threads which makes some of them more likely to strip out the wood than others. I have found that turntables that have had the base removed and refitted a lot of times (Valhalla replaced by LIngo, Cirkus kit installed, Trampolin fitted, new arm installed, Keel fitted, Trampolin 2 installed, Radikal fitted, Ekso SE fitted, Urika installed, etc.) will often need to have some screws replaced with longer ones. My personal Klimax LP12 is a good example with long screws in most positions. So I keep a bunch of long Linn screws here and if a short one can no longer tighten properly I replace it with a longer one. So far I have never seen a hole with a longer screw strip out.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Chet »

Thanks Thomas for your advice. I am just typing up my results...
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Chet »

Ok that's the best my lp12 has ever sounded.

I carried out the modification on Sunday and the sound is more coherent, a bit more expressive but the bass timing and quality of bass is one of the best noticeable improvements.

To give some background: when I had a keel and radical fitted by a Linn dealer, right from the outset it never quite sounded right and the key thing for me was the bass quality and timing - it always seemed slightly out of sync, but because the overall sound quality was improved after the fitting, I thought 'this must be how it is'. It then takes time for you to focus in on what doesn't just quite feel right.

This modification has resolved it.

For information, if it helps anyone else, I used basswood, not that I think it make any significant difference whether using that or balsa, but the hobby shop I bought it from only had it in stock on the day, but I was happy enough with it because I think it will compress less. However as Thomas points out correctly, compressing a bit (Balsa) may lead to a tighter fit.

Also the thickness I went for was slightly over 3 mm - they do one that is 1/16 height and another one which is 1/8 height and I used the 1/8 height. If you're in the UK it was bought from Hobbycraft and one bag contains 5 of these basswood or balsa wood strips for £3 and one bag Is all you need. This 3mm height has not left any gap that I can see.

I didn't have any other longer Linn screws, so I used some my own wood screws which are decent quality. I can't imagine that it would make any difference, but someone may know better!

My plinth was exactly 65 mm high and it definitely had the issue before the modification.


Now that this has been done, I am annoyed at Linn for not rectifying the issue for carrying out some kind of recall or dealer repair and just burying their head in the sand.

Also why aren't they instructing all the dealers that if they carry out a service on an lp12 with Radikal, then they need to do this modification as part of that. I had a LP12 service from a Linn dealer last year and he used some polystyrene strips which he cut with scissors to length to overcome this issue, but they have just decayed and compressed and didn't do the job it was meant to.

Anyway if you haven't done it yet and you've got the issue - definitely do it.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Charlie1 »

Glad to hear of your success and that it's been worthwhile.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Ianw »

Well done Sir
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Chet »

Cheers Charlie & Ian.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Emil »

I modified the foot under the motor. The results are excellent. I’ve tried a number of plinths in the past and I noticed, that each kind of wood gives a specific sound. That’s why I’m reluctant to put wooden parts under the plinth.

Did Linn find out a solution of this issue? Or they are yet to admit this.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Emil wrote: 2019-03-19 19:46Did Linn find out a solution of this issue? Or they are yet to admit this.
There hasn't been any solution announced by Linn for resolving this design flaw, as far as I know.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Tony Tune-age »

I'm guessing there still has been no acknowledgement by Linn for this particular design flaw? Any updates or additional information?
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by ThomasOK »

Nothing that I am aware of. I have not seen any changes to the Trampolin 2 nor the Radikal motor housing.

However, an interesting related note is that I ran into a Lingo 4 install where the Trampolin 2 would literally not fit on the plinth because of the Lingo 4 mounting screws sticking too far out for the shallow plinth I was installing it on. Admittedly this was an unusually shallow plinth at 64mm but not totally unique. At this height the two mounting screws that hold the metal plat to the standoffs kept the Trampolin from being fastened to the plinth at all four corners. I brought this to Linn Service attention as well and was told they are aware of the problem and have some standoffs that are 3mm shorter for use in these situations. I ordered a number of them with my next Linn order.

With the table needing to be done and unaware of the Linn fix I used the same wood strip technique used for the Radikal motor problem and it worked fine.
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Re: LP12 Radikal problem

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Thanks for the updated information Thomas. It's really great that Linn is aware of the Lingo 4 issue, and have made an official correction. Now it should be easy for them to understand the "Radikal motor and Trampolin" design flaw issue, and make an official correction for that as well.

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