Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

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Charlie1
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Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Charlie1 »

Does anyone have any recommendations for a vinyl pressing that's really made a difference to your appreciation of an album, perhaps enabling you to enjoy it for the first time? It could be a first pressing, specific country pressing, specific company that did the mastering, or whatever...
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by ThomasOK »

I have one but you won't find one cheap. As I have stated elsewhere, my single favorite album is In the Court of the Crimson King, the debut album by King Crimson. I bought it shortly after it came out in the US and did enjoy listening to it many, many, many times. But I didn't find out what I had been missing until I finally managed to pick up a UK first pressing. There are many other pressings but if you want to really hear the music it is the only choice. Thereby hangs a tale.

It turns out that shortly after the record came out the master tapes were lost. Because of that the UK second pressing was made from a safety copy of the master. It is OK but definitely not as good. For the US pressing a copy of that copy was sent to a US studio and Ian McDonald re-equalized and remixed it while here making he US records no closer to the master tape than 4th generation. The Japanese pressings were made from a copy of the US master so they were 5th generation. Subsequent pressings like MoFi (which was not a true original master recording) and the Editions EG versions were who knows how far removed from the original.

Interestingly, the master tapes were finally found some 35 years later and are now the property or Robert Fripp, the sole member of the original band to have been in every subsequent variation of King Crimson. Robert decided to bring out a new vinyl pressing for the 40th anniversary a few years back made from the original master tapes. Unfortunately he decided to have the cutting done from a high-res digital master. :( As you can imagine it also is not as good as the UK first pressing.

I do speak from experience having heard all the above different pressings.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by beck »

A great read Thomas. Here we are talking about the real source (as in source first). Not exactly an answer to your question charlie1 but a very good recording. Read about it via the links below:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7uaibrxrkh9x ... 9.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/keqdajkk6xff9 ... 7.jpg?dl=0

Enjoy! :-)
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by markiteight »

I don't remember if I posted this story here already. It's hard to remember what I've posted in which forums, so apologies if you've read this before.

The first time I heard Peter Gabriel's So album was also the first time I heard an LP12 (and Keltiks). So taken was I by what I heard I immediately bought the album on CD (I didn't have a vinyl playback system at the time). I knew full well the CD wouldn't sound as good, but it was the music I was after so I didn't care. Despite my low expectations I was shocked at how bad the CD sounded. The song Big Time was completely unlistenable - sounding more like strident, screeching, nails-on-the-chalkboard noise than music. But whatever... that's why CD players have track skip buttons. Right?

Fast forward 10 years and I finally acquire my first turntable (Rega Planar 25) and begin my search for a pressing of So, among other albums I've desperately wanted to hear on vinyl for years. It wasn't until a few years later that I finally found a copy, coincidentally a few days after purchasing my first (and current) LP12. On the platter it went and I was immediately brought back to that first listen. When it was time for the Big Time I habitually got up to skip to the next song but was stopped mid stride by the depth and complexity of the music I was hearing. There is a LOT going on in that song that was completely garbled into unlistenable noise on the CD version. It was at that moment (ironically AFTER I had significantly lightened my wallet) that I began to truly appreciate just how good is the LP12. On an interesting note, I believe (but not 100% certain) that the digital version of So was mastered using Linn's Numerik studio system (very different from the consumer grade Numerik d/a converter that was released years later). I know some of Peter's albums were mastered on the Numerik, just not sure if So was among them.

I don't know if the pressing I have is anything special (I found it in a used record bin in a thrift store for a few bucks) but I've since heard several vinyl reissues and none of them can old a candle to the original thin pressing, lending further truth to the statement many on this site have made that the Audiophile Approved reissues sound pretty but lack the music of the originals.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for the tips. Keep 'em coming.

Makes sense that the King Crimson first press is so much better. I wonder if this is exactly what I need to break into this album :) I do like the more mellow tracks already. I have an Island pink label UK A3/B3 which appears to be a 2nd pressing. If 1st pressings are mega bucks then I will stick with this.

Thanks Beck for the article. I think mine is a Classic Records re-issue but not double LP. I have tried to find a decent original or 70s/80s reissue but they are hard to come by.

Enjoyed the PG tale Mark. I seem to recall 'Us' was done on Numerik and is mentioned in the sleeve notes. I have the 'So' Classic Albums DVD. He recorded onto analogue tape but then ran out and started using DAT, so there is a mix of mostly analogue with some digitally recorded elements on that album.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2018-01-27 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote: Thanks Beck for the article. I think mine is a Classic Records re-issue but not double LP. I have tried to find a decent original or 70s/80s reissue but they are hard to come by.
It is funny. I do have some really good sounding records but the ones I connect to the strongest is clearly the old pre 1980 records with their not perfect but so involving sound. They grap me on a deeper level making me disappear into the music.
They are the ones I play again and again. I almost never play “Amused to Death” by Roger Waters just to name one.
The more polished the sound gets the more “substance” seems to get lost.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:It is funny. I do have some really good sounding records but the ones I connect to the strongest is clearly the old pre 1980 records with their not perfect but so involving sound. They grap me on a deeper level making me disappear into the music.
They are the ones I play again and again. I almost never play “Amused to Death” by Roger Waters just to name one.
Yes, me too. As much as these newer LPs sound better with the Tundra and other upgrades, the older LPs still grab me more. I think there is a synergy that just sounds so right. Perhaps it's the LP12 itself. Maybe modern LPs are more attuned to modern heavyweight turntables that try to dampen vibrations. Or have we just lost the skills?

As much as I enjoy the live sound of a 1950s Blue Note first pressing (not that I have many), it's the 1970s recordings when the LP12 was born that I like most. Perhaps it was just my era growing up. I played Gerry Rafferty's 'City to City' and 'Night Owl' LPs the other week and they both sounded lovely. Like you say, just enjoy the music without distraction.

As an aside, and I know a few members also love it, but if you don't have Rickie Lee Jones' debut then you really should make the effort to pick that one up. It's superb music and a lovely 1970s Burbank recording:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickie_Lee_Jones_(album)
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote:
beck wrote:It is funny. I do have some really good sounding records but the ones I connect to the strongest is clearly the old pre 1980 records with their not perfect but so involving sound. They grap me on a deeper level making me disappear into the music.
They are the ones I play again and again. I almost never play “Amused to Death” by Roger Waters just to name one.
Yes, me too. As much as these newer LPs sound better with the Tundra and other upgrades, the older LPs still grab me more. I think there is a synergy that just sounds so right. Perhaps it's the LP12 itself. Maybe modern LPs are more attuned to modern heavyweight turntables that try to dampen vibrations. Or have we just lost the skills?

As much as I enjoy the live sound of a 1950s Blue Note first pressing (not that I have many), it's the 1970s recordings when the LP12 was born that I like most. Perhaps it was just my era growing up. I played Gerry Rafferty's 'City to City' and 'Night Owl' LPs the other week and they both sounded lovely. Like you say, just enjoy the music without distraction.

As an aside, and I know a few members also love it, but if you don't have Rickie Lee Jones' debut then you really should make the effort to pick that one up. It's just superb music and a lovely 1970s recording:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickie_Lee_Jones_(album)
Thank you for the heads up. I will look into it.

I am sitting here listening to Elo`s On the Third Day and it is a fantastic record. Raw, direct and involving. Getting under my skin. :-)
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Lego »

I'm not really sure about how important a pressing is when it comes to the sound quality of a particular album.I'm guessing the recording has a bigger influence.I've got a couple of dull sounding 180g etc albums, which actually halted future purchase of newly released vinyl
It's usually the record label that springs to mind if I am asked to pick a good sounding album and for me, that's the jazz label Contemporary Records and any Art Pepper album. This guy is bit of an anorak when it comes to pressings.

https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.c ... ther-1960/

Eg and Alice's 25 years of hunger is a great recording for an LP12 as a couple of tracks like this one just chug along like a train which the LP12 is great at conveying in an understated way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzTYTe7t_F4

I know it hasn't really answered your question Charlie but the few times I've decided to try the pressing from its original homeland the difference hasn't been that great.Although I do have a slightly warped Italian version of Stevie Wonders Talking Book that I've kept meaning to change since I bought it, though I doubt even an American first pressing can beat that 'hearing it for the first time' that I've already experienced, if you know what I mean.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Charlie1 »

Lego wrote:Eg and Alice's 25 years of hunger is a great recording for an LP12 as a couple of tracks like this one just chug along like a train which the LP12 is great at conveying in an understated way
I like it - just ordered a 2nd hand copy :)
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by jonteman »

Been listening to Muddy Waters "folk singer" from 1964 digitally for many years.
Bought myself an expensive vinyl last year. So Worth it!
My best album by far!
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by ThomasOK »

charlie1, I'm not sure if the UK first pressing will be enough to get you into King Crimson. Some of the music is fairly dark and even the beautiful parts are melancholy. Not everybody can get into a song that has the chorus:
"Confusion will be my Epitaph
As I crawl a cracked and broken path
If we make it we can all look back and laugh
But I fear tomorrow I'll be crying
Yes I fear tomorrow I'll be crying
Yes I fear tomorrow I'll be crying, crying"
Yet it is my single favorite song.

I was at a Steven Wilson concert and in one of the breaks he said: "I write melancholy songs because it makes me happy to write them. You all are here to listen to them so it appears it makes you happy too." Taken farther Trent Resnor at an outdoor NIN concert here where the sun was streaming through the amphitheater said: "This music is dark, it was written in the dark, it was meant to be played in the dark!" signaling that he wasn't happy with the sunshine. They didn't come back for an encore.

Anyway, I don't think that modern recordings are mixed for heavy turntables as they don't sound any better on them than old ones do. I think you are closer to the truth when you ask if we have lost the skills. One thing that I think all of us have realized is that complexity in HiFi gear is almost always detrimental to musical enjoyment. Simplicity in circuit design, short signal paths, and of course careful design based on listening lead to the most musical products. It makes sense that the same thing applies to the recording side of things. So to me it is no surprise that the majority of the most gripping recordings were made in the 50s, 60s and early 70s. When recording studios only had two track recorders there were limits on how complex they could make things and before the days of multi-tracking you had most tracks recorded live in the studio or at a concert. Certainly they would do multiple takes but the whole band would do them and often the first take was the best. Many of the great musical pieces like the "Folk Singer" album mentioned above and others like "Kind of Blue" and many early rock albums were made this way. But when multi-tracking and huge mixing panels came along you found classical recordings with mics for each section and soloist and mixes that just sounded wrong as instruments didn't have the natural balance of two or three mic recordings. In rock and pop the extra tracks and mixers were used for a range of creative effects and did give us masterpieces like Sgt. Peppers, Dark Side of the Moon, In the Court (you had to know I'd include that), etc. but also allowed excesses in production that were musical messes. When you get into the later 70s digital recordings using machines created by Denon, Soundstream and 3M start being used for recordings being made into records instead of just as safety copies and allowed for even more complex recordings. The first US digitally recorded album of pop music was "Bop 'Til You Drop" by Ry Cooder. Compare it to his previous album "Jazz" (an album I recommended) to give you an idea of what early digital did to music. Now we are in an age where music is more often than not produced on computers using software like ProTools which allows things like having the software correct for the inability of the artist to carry a tune. Ad to that all the digital effects pedals used by guitarists and keyboardists, effects like digital reverb and eq used on vocals and other instruments then run through digital mixers onto hard drives and is it any surprise that it is difficult for the music to get through.

Considering all the difficulty and expense involved in creating something like the Klimax DS/3 and the extensive work Fredrik has done trying to get a truly musical digital streamer, is it any surprise that the music has a hard time making its way through all the multiple layers of recording and processing done in most modern recordings? Then add to that the fact that modern recordings are often made by multiple artists recording in different studios in different cities and at different times and then all mixed together for the end result. How likely is it to create a cohesive, flowing musical experience?

Now, I still do buy and enjoy a number of modern recordings, although not as many as I used to buy. But I ofter wonder if I will ever again buy a recording as involving and gripping as several of the ones mentioned above. (Although "The Raven That Refused to Sing" by Steven Wilson comes pretty close.) But if you want to get an idea of what all this technology has lost us look no further than a record I have recommended on here before: "The New Standard" by Jamie Saft, Steve Swallow and Bobby Previte on Rare Noise records. This modern recording was released in 2014, but unlike the majority of modern recordings it was made much more like a recording of the late 50s or 60s. The album of mainly improvisational music was record with all three musicians live in the studio interacting with each other and the actual recording only took about three hours. It was recorded all analog, minimally miked with no EQ, nor compression, just “a little reverb” and no post-production effects onto a 2 track 1/2" Ampex tape recorder by top engineer Joe Ferla and then pressed to vinyl from the master tape. Give it a listen and I'll think you'll see why recordings created like this, most of which are decades old, can suck you into the music in a way most modern recordings just don't
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by beck »

It is not without a sting of sadness that I agree with you Thomas.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Thomas.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the multi-track part. I do think, for some artists, a straight forward recording would be less engaging than what a producer can do. The good producer can sometimes add a lot of mood and atmosphere to a track, often at key points to help build upon what the musicians have laid down. Obviously, it depends on the artist and what they are trying to create with each track or album. I agree that straight forward folk, rock 'n roll, blues, jazz, etc. is probably better as simple recordings.

For example, I like early U2. Their first three albums are very straight forward Steve Lillywhite rock productions. Whereas, The Unforgettable Fire that followed is a high point for me, thanks to the extra dimension that Eno and Lanios brought to it. It's a much more layered, complex and atmospheric album than the first three. They couldn't have done that with 4-track recording.

But like anything, it can go too far and be counter productive.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by ThomasOK »

I agree, charlie1, and I did note that some of my favorites were multi-tracked. Multi-tracking tape machines and huge consoles are tools and used properly have made some exceptional recordings. But like anything else that has more complexity and gives the artist or producer more freedom, it also allows for non-musical excess and just plain poor usage to mess things up more effectively than ever before. The more complex the tools the bigger a mess you can make of things. But those with skill can product quite fetching music.

To be honest I think it is the digitization of the process and the lack of real emotional involvement of many newer artists that leads to the general poor quality of much of what is released now. This is, in great part, fueled by the way the big studios handle music now, almost always valuing quantity and appearance over quality. Then also there are times when music makes great strides and goes through a lot of changes and other times where it stagnates more. I think these often correspond with times of great upheaval. There have been tremendous changes in the last century plus a few decades and I believe this triggered a golden age of music that hit its peak for jazz, blues, rock and pop in the 40s through 60s. Just my opinion, and there is still good music being made here and there. But if you look at a list of the top singles or albums of 1969 the quality and variety is just amazing. Look at the top selling albums of 2017 and they are either factory pop/rap/"counrty" or made by dead people (I hear dead people). Anyway, I veered off course a little bit but I think you see what I mean.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Charlie1 »

Yep, I know what you mean. The UK also had to endure the Stock Aitken Waterman period during the late 80s. Hopefully, it didn't trouble you too much in the US.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by nmakowsk »

I have been lurking this board for years as a customer of Mr. Okeefe for close to 10 years now (bought a magik lp12 in 2008 I believe it was) and the whole experience has been great. As it turns out, Tom got me into King Crimson when I heard another customer using the table I had just decided to purchase at Overture Audio playing In the Court of the Crimson king and I had to learn more about that crazy mellotron I had just heard. Been a fan of the moody blues for awhile and of course strawberry fields forever but I never knew before that day that King Crimson was using a mellotron to blow people's mind with sheer melancholic power. Epitaph is just amazing and I can see why Tom has been so enamored all these years.
Anyways, I finally found that fabled UK pink label for $70 in a VG++ shape and it sounds spectacular like Tom says. This is an A2 B4 copy and from what I can determine this is the first stampers but maybe there is a side two B2 to be found? Maybe Tom can list his stampers on his copy or might know more. I also have a pink island second press with stampers A3 B3 and its clearly not quite as good and USA copies are even farther away like Tom says.
Tom knows I am big on country of origin pressings as in seek the copies and masterings where the album was made originally. Jethro Tull's Benefit and Beatles UK pressings vs. USA copies are definitely a good test for this as well. I can add one album in my experience where the reissue clearly betters the original. American Woman by the Guess Who. This album was recorded in the USA at RCA so I found an original 1969 orange RCA pressing but its full or surface noise and the dynamics are just squashed sounding. The reissue on Cisco records from I think 2006 is a gem mastered by Kevin Gray. This pressing solved those issues of the original. In almost every case I prefer the original but not in this case.
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by nmakowsk »

One of the albums I am holding out for is a mono copy of Cream Disraeli Gears. Now this is an interesting situation because this is an English band of course but this sophomore effort was recorded at Atlantic studies in New York City. Who ended up with the better vinyl version? My hypothesis is that the USA press should be better because those tapes were recorded in the USA then likely cut to vinyl at Atlantic using those first gen tapes. UK pressings were possibly made from copies sent back across the pond but its conjecture. I would like to compare a Atlantic mono USA Presswell or Monarch (east coast press/west coast press) to the UK Reaction mono copies. As a side note the USA copies that are T stamped are from Terre Haute, Indiana and are cut in house at Columbia using their own second generation tape so those are not going to be as good as the mastered at Atlantic AT etched pressings. Now all of these are very expensive and hard to find in listenable condition. Many also suffer from dreaded mono groovewear.
There is also the half speed mastered at abbey road reissue from a couple years ago that might be interesting. Has anyone ever heard this or compared? Even this reissue seems to sell for 50 bucks so its a pricey comparison. Thanks to anyone who can help me solve this mystery or give me some ideas how these versions sound. I am having a hard time spending close to 100 bucks to get any copy. -Nick
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for posting and welcome to the forum.

Never sure if I should have spent more money on my vinyl or my system. I do try to get first pressings but some are just shocking prices. I would love the orange label version of Astral Weeks, for example, but £300 for an album I already know very well seems silly.

I too prefer the in-country 1st pressing more often than not. The previously mentioned Ricky Lee Jones is a good case in point. The UK first pressing is nothing like as good and my US pressing (which is not close to a 1st press).
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote:Yep, I know what you mean. The UK also had to endure the Stock Aitken Waterman period during the late 80s. Hopefully, it didn't trouble you too much in the US.
I missed their "work" and, having briefly checked out a compilation on youtube, I am glad I did!
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by beck »

Sitting listening to Bob Dylans “Highway 61 Revisited” actually enjoying it I can recommend the 2010 Music On Vinyl remastered mono series. (Music On Vinyl get their pressing done in Holland by experienced people)
The man in charge had a hard time finding the right master tapes. Getting one tape after another finally he picked op the phone and directed the people to send him a dusty master tape with “Do not touch” written on it! :-)
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Matteo »

I don't know where to post about what follows.

I'm very interested in creating a topic or various topics regarding the best vinyl versions of an album.

There is something similar on the Steve Hoffman and Discogs forums.

For example, Simple Minds - Street Fighting Years (1989) is one of my favourite ever album, but the press I have (Italy) is unlistenable. In a topic like this, members can share their experience about different press of the same album (for example, UK original press is better than xyxyx reissue or than US press ...).

Regards

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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by lejonklou »

Matteo wrote:I don't know where to post about what follows.

I'm very interested in creating a topic or various topics regarding the best vinyl versions of an album.

There is something similar on the Steve Hoffman and Discogs forums.

For example, Simple Minds - Street Fighting Years (1989) is one of my favourite ever album, but the press I have (Italy) is unlistenable. In a topic like this, members can share their experience about different press of the same album (for example, UK original press is better than xyxyx reissue or than US press ...).
Good idea!

Just go ahead and start it, for instance in this subforum.

I've never heard that album of Simple Minds, but I do love the song 'I travel' from 1980. My wife first played it to me and I was surprised when she told me it was Simple Minds (although the vocals did sound familiar).
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Re: Vinyl pressings that made a big difference

Post by Matteo »

lejonklou wrote: I've never heard that album of Simple Minds, but I do love the song 'I travel' from 1980. My wife first played it to me and I was surprised when she told me it was Simple Minds (although the vocals did sound familiar).
If you want to deepen Simple Minds, I can suggest, among others, the following vinyls (in order of my preference):

1. Street Fighting Years (1989);
2. New Gold Dream (81, 82, 83, 84) (1982);
3. Once Upon a Time (1985);
4. Real Life (1991).

M.
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