Classic Records LP Manufacturing Developments

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-10-01 12:58

For those with some time to spare and an interest in LP manufacture, then you might find Classic Records latest processes of interest: -

http://www.classicrecords.com/blog/inde ... ivemonth=9

Robert Lake · Post by **Robert Lake** » 2008-10-03 13:11

Down below is a link to an interesting review of Classics' pressing of Aqualung where the reviewer compares Classic's version with five (!) other versions of the same LP. Classic's LP used some very original tapes handed over by Ian Anderson personally and never used before.

Interesting reading, I think. It makes you realise how much damage can be done to the performance by insensitive people in the mastering process. And that in the hands of the right persons it can sound fantatistic.

http://www.musicangle.com/album.php?id=520&page=1

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-03 18:22

There is a guy on the Swedish Linn forum that has made a comparison of different CD's and LP's of Norah Jones "Come away with me". In that comparison, the Classic Records version was the worst of all.

His comment was that it sounds like a typical audiophile pressing with very polished sound but is terribly boring to listen to.

Link to his review (in Swedish):
http://forum.selleri.de/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4881

Not sure if this is the case with other LP's from Classic Records. I hope not!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-10-03 19:32

That's interesting. I do have Norah's last LP on Blue Note and find it more musical than her first which I bought on Classic Records, but I always thought it might be down to the different recording.

My own findings are the same I'm afraid. Classic Records 'Born to Run' 'Peter Gabriel #1' both got sold on Fleabay cos the originals (both reissues) were more musical, although obviously not so quiet. Born to Run in particular was much more fun and involving than the CR version - it really captured the spirit of the music by comparison. Led Zep #4 is the same situation, but my original is so buggered I decided to hang onto the CR version.

Despite this, I'm pleased Classic Records are pushing the boundaries of LP manufacture. And perhaps other companies with follow, like Blue Note and Linn, that know how to preserve the music on an LP.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-03 23:20

Interesting indeed. I am sure that CR has the technology and resources to do high quality work, but the fact that such a company can still fail to make their products musical only proves that it's not primarily about the resources, but first and foremost about identifying and evaluating quality.

In my book the order of importance is:

1. Identify quality and find a way to reliably evaluate it
2. Persevere
3. Learn all you can and be creative
4. Find the right tools and resources

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-10-04 01:06

Quality like Fun. Everyone knows what it is, few can explain it, and fewer agree on it.

The one essential for a great product is that those producing it need to have some "Fire" . (Feel free to edit but that's the best way I've ever heard it put.) Without that most things fall short.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-04 07:06

Anyone having an example where a non original recording (vinyl or CD) is NOT the most musical?

How many versions exist on Dark side of the moon? (stereo, 5.1, SACD etc etc etc)
And what happen with the quality and musicality :?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-05 02:40

SaltyDog wrote:those producing it need to have some "Give a sh*t".

Could you explain that expression, Salty? I'm not sure I get it.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-10-05 03:25

An expression from the USA. Such as "I don't have a fire " means they do not care. My quote means they are the opposite (conscientious). I mean a level of concern about the outcome vs. just a days work or paycheck.

I have found people either care or they don't. It is not something someone can train an adult to do. When I hire people it's the biggest thing I look for. If they have "it" they can be trained to do almost anything. Without "it" - they are not helping - they are the cause of more work for me.

As you have noticed some are in for the money. Period. No care about the music, value, etc.

It is clear to me you have "Fire" and would be successful in your endeavors.

Hope this explains some.

Ceilidh · Post by **Ceilidh** » 2008-10-05 05:55

Could we please not have profanity, swearing, "colourful" language, or other such things on this forum? (Regardless of whether punctuation marks are used in lieu of critical letters....) I can hear such language every day, used far more creatively, on any of the local streets around town; I prefer not to see it here.

Thank you very much.

-C

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2008-10-05 06:01

SaltyDog wrote: I have found people either care or they don't. It is not something someone can train an adult to do. When I hire people it's the biggest thing I look for. If they have "it" they can be trained to do almost anything. Without "it" - they are not helping - they are the cause of more work for me.

A good summary, I look for same characteristics selecting employees but also people I like to discuss/be with.
Persons without a "fire burning" for something is totally uninteresting to communicate with!

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-10-05 14:27

Ceilidh wrote:Could we please not have profanity, swearing, "colourful" language, or other such things on this forum? (Regardless of whether punctuation marks are used in lieu of critical letters....) I can hear such language every day, used far more creatively, on any of the local streets around town; I prefer not to see it here.

Thank you very much.

-C

Apologies and as stated initially please feel free to edit.

The phrase is like (I thought) "fun" or "quality" in that it is hard to explain the full meaning of the concept. It's not a case where I had an understandable alternative, but for this forum it would be nice to have an understanding that "fire" or some other phrase or word expresses that concept.

Used the same as TuneDem - we all know what is meant by the concept - once we know. TuneDem is MUCH more than musical. The inappropriate expression is much more than just "fire burning". "Fire" is just a major component.

If I knew how to edit myself I would. I too prefer to express myself without using street language.

Can anyone help?

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2008-10-05 14:33

Found the edit button.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-06 10:22

Thanks, Salty. Now I understand what you mean.

And thanks for putting that attribute on me! Some would even say the fire is in excess, don't ask my wife about working hours. :lol:

Ceilidh · Post by **Ceilidh** » 2008-10-10 00:16

Hello Saltydog,

Thank you very much for editing your posts -- I very much appreciate it. You are a true gentleman, and I hope you've been enjoying this forum. :D (And thank you as well for the intriguing points you raise on this thread and on others!)

All best,
-C

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-10-15 19:41

It would be a sad thing if the most musical LP is only ever the original pressing. As time goes by there will be less and less of these available and they'll get more and more worn out. And if the likes of Classic Records and Warner Bros. are unable to deliver audiophile pressings that hold up to the originals musically, then there seems little hope (As mentioned before, I've yet to hear ANY audiophile pressing or modern reissue that betters an original in terms of tunefulness. Even budget 1980s reissues often sound more musical to me)

However, I picked up a couple of Linn Selekt LPs this weekend and they sound pretty tuneful. Unfortunately, I don't have these LPs in their original form, so would like to know if anyone here has ever compared an original pressing to a Linn Selekt pressing?

Basically, I'm trying to work out if the lack of musicality is something to do with modern audiophile LP manufacturing or whether the original master tapes simply don't hold up over time. One way to answer this would be to know if Linn were ever able to match an original pressing (musically speaking).

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-15 21:45

The Linn Selekt records were, as far as I know, only distributed by Linn. The idea was probably to support the LP format by letting retailers sell some good records. They were not produced, manufactured, pressed or anything like that by Linn.

But that Linn Records could make really good LP's was proven by the Beethoven's 5th by Kleiber (discussed in an old thread on this forum). I have talked to the Swedish guys who were involved in this project and they really tried to get every possible detail right in the manufacturing. Even the vinyl was chosen from several different suppliers - they made a pressing with each vinyl and picked the best.

In the end they compared the result with the old original LP's they had of the very same recording and the Linn made version was a LOT better - both musically and sonically. As the new LP's were made with original master tapes, this proves that it's not the aging of the master tapes that is the problem. It could possibly be in some cases, but how often?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-10-15 22:30

In the end they compared the result with the old original LP's they had of the very same recording and the Linn made version was a LOT better - both musically and sonically. As the new LP's were made with original master tapes, this proves that it's not the aging of the master tapes that is the problem. It could possibly be in some cases, but how often?

That's very encouraging. We just need a company that appreciates music over sound to go into business. And if they were to adopt the manufacturing developments that Classic Records are using then it would be even better. Something tells me it probably won't happen though. I know that I don't work in either the Hi-Fi or LP industry, so I have limited understanding of the processes involved, but it amazes me how often Hi-Fi products/LPs are made musically worse as the sound improves. You would think that it would be the other way around.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2008-10-16 00:46

Charlie1 wrote:it amazes me how often Hi-Fi products/LPs are made musically worse as the sound improves

I can really understand the difficulties of ending up with an excellent product when the Tune Method is not followed to 100%. When tuning a system or a product, the number of choices becomes almost unlimited. And many of these choices become traps as one setting will be slightly more tuneful but the other can sound so much more impressive.

This can seem a bit strange to someone unfamiliar with it, but I encounter it all the time. In the latest project (now ready for production), the addition of one tiny diode made the sound magically more spacious, open and 3D. Any high end enthusiast would embrace that addition and while I don't consider myself one, I still sat listening for almost half an hour just enjoying the new sound. But evaluated with the Tune Method it actually performed a tiny bit worse! Something was lost in the timing of the lower bass and the diode had to go.

When I built my first preamplifier in 1991, I consistently fell into these traps. I did perform some kind of emotional home-brewn Tune Method evaluation, but as soon as I felt that the sound was considerably improved, I kept that change. In the end, both the sound and the musical abilites were terrible! I suspect that my initial calculated draft probably performed ok - and then I tweaked it to death!

It wasn't until I learned how to properly install aktiv systems that I realised how important it was to stick to the outcome of the Tune Method to 100%. When doing that, the musicality gets right and - as if by magic - the sound turns out to be optimal too.

If one sticks to the outcome of the Tune Method to 99%, one will eventually get completely lost. Like trying to get to the apple that hangs in a twig at the top of a tree: If you just make one wrong choice of branch along the way, you won't end up at the apple.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-10-16 09:30

That's interesting Fredrik. I can see how audio manufacturers get pulled astray by better sound. Perhaps that's why hi-end gear can sound musically worse than low-end systems where there may not be the budget to spend time tweaking the sound and testing a variety of components.

No doubt the audiophile record labels work in the same way, embracing anything that sounds better without keeping an ear on the music.

PS Looking forward to seeing photo's of the new product!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-12-05 22:21

I found this thread most interesting as I have long felt that most "Audiophile" records were less musical than the standard pressings. I had held off posting here until I had a bit more useful information.

I admit to being taken in myself by the newer labels like Classic Records. But reading the posts here and the links led me to reevaluate my trust in them. Interestingly enough it was the endorsement by Michael Fremer as much as the negative review on the Swedish Linn Forum that led me to conduct my latest listening tests. (After all Michale Fremer was the one who reviewed the LP12 setup with a RingMat instead of the felt mat through fear it would decapitate his cartridge on the rare occasion that it stuck to the record. Yet on a $100,000 table he said "while the mat occasionally attached itself to the record's underside and had to be peeled away, I didn't regard it as inconvenient or inelegant". White man speak with forked tongue!)

So I ordered an original Blue Note of the first Norah Jones record (one of my favorites) to compare to the CR 200 gram I already own. I also dug up my original Jethro Tull "Aqualung" LP to compare to the CR remaster Mike Fremer liked so much. This is one of the records with the new profile and pressing that is detailed in the link that started this thread.

My findings were quite interesting even if they should have been expected. The Blue Note Norah Jones is dramatically more musical than the CR 200 gram. The music flows better, it is easier to hear what the different players are doing and Norah just sounds more real. Once you've heard the Blue Note you find the CR 200 to be harsh and fatiguing. This is one of my girlfriend's favorite records as well. When she first heard the Blue Note (without knowing anything had changed) she said "Why does this record sound so much better than it did before?"

I then compared the two Aqualung LPs. I will say that the difference was not as big as it was with the Norah Jones but the stock pressing, which was a bit worn, was still the more musical. It was more tuneful, textures of the piano, guitar and drums were all more real. Cymbals had a more natural decay to the ring of the metal. Everything had a better flow and it gave the music more meaning. One piece I used was "Locomotive Breath" which is one of my favorites and one I have a connection with as I played it a lot when I was having difficulties in my first marriage. The song starts out with a somewhat mellow piano intro before going into what is a rather hard and negative song ("He's crawling down the corridor on his hands and knees, Old Charlie stole the handle and the train it won't stop going, No way to slow down"). On the CR 200 pressing the whole intro just kind of rolls along and then the other instruments jump in and everything gets heavy. But on the original pressing the piano starts out flowing and mellow but when it plays the main theme of the song you hear a tension in the playing that is a preview of what is to come. It so surprised me to hear this difference in the tension of the piano playing on the original vs. the lack of it on the CR that I went back and forth a couple more times to make sure I wasn't imagining it and it remained consistent. The piano player on the original pressing was just better as he gave you the slightest feel of what was coming in the rest of the song. The piano player on the CR pressing just wasn't able to convey that feeling.

I had done a similar comparison a while back between and original James Taylor "Mud Slide Slim" and a newer "Audiophile" pressing that Charlie1 had sent me as he wasn't happy with it. Even though my original was pretty worn (I didn't have quite the Hi-Fi back then that I do now.

) it still was more fun to listen to than the newer pressing. More musical and it had more "bop" to it.

So there you have it. In my experience the newer audiophile labels still don't make as good a record as the stock pressings, at least in the cases where I have done a direct comparison. Reading back through the thread I have to say I think Fredrik has hit the nail on the head when he says that the problem is "first and foremost about identifying and evaluating quality". If you don't really know what quality is how can you create it or preserve it. And if you don't know how to evaluate quality properly it is easy to get sidetracked on things that don't help the sound. As we like to say around the store it is easy to make something sound "different" it is much more difficult to make an actual musical improvement.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-12-05 23:41

ThomasOK wrote:The Blue Note Norah Jones is dramatically more musical than the CR 200 gram. The music flows better, it is easier to hear what the different players are doing and Norah just sounds more real. Once you've heard the Blue Note you find the CR 200 to be harsh and fatiguing. This is one of my girlfriend's favorite records as well. When she first heard the Blue Note (without knowing anything had changed) she said "Why does this record sound so much better than it did before?

Thanks for reporting this back Thomas. I've been wondering how they would compare since the first posts on the subject. Also worth mentioning that its cheaper than the CR version as well.

I've considered getting more Blue Note vinyl, but this has given me the impetus to go and do it.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2008-12-06 16:44

Charlie1 wrote:Thanks for reporting this back Thomas. I've been wondering how they would compare since the first posts on the subject. Also worth mentioning that its cheaper than the CR version as well.

I've considered getting more Blue Note vinyl, but this has given me the impetus to go and do it.

I think cheaper is a bit of an understatement. At least in the US the Blue Note is a touch under half the price of the CR! I too will be looking into more Blue Note vinyl - especially as I have all 3 Norah Jones studio albums on CR pressings. :(

Lego · Post by **Lego** » 2008-12-07 16:16

I find it amazing that the original Blue note recordings are described as musical and more involving etc.For me Blue note was one of the most boring ,sterile and unatmospheric of all the jazz recordings when compared to the likes of riverside/prestige and Impulse etc..So I cant imagine how bad CRs sound but I could easily guess.Better than rubbish doesnt make it good.'Audiophile like' is what I'd call Blue Note,how ironic is that.The pressings were good I just didnt like the way they recorded the music.The latter albums 90s etc sounded impressive but I very rarely played them ,which is always a sign for me.
Tune deming 2 items is all well and good if both of the items have some quality.waste of time if you are comparing 2 duffers.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2008-12-10 23:50

ThomasOK wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:Thanks for reporting this back Thomas. I've been wondering how they would compare since the first posts on the subject. Also worth mentioning that its cheaper than the CR version as well.

I've considered getting more Blue Note vinyl, but this has given me the impetus to go and do it.
I think cheaper is a bit of an understatement. At least in the US the Blue Note is a touch under half the price of the CR! I too will be looking into more Blue Note vinyl - especially as I have all 3 Norah Jones studio albums on CR pressings.

That's odd as here the CR version is £24 and Blue Note £19 and that's from a vinyl reseller that is competitive within the UK. Someone's making some good margin that's for sure. I'm surprised how much cheaper new vinyl is the US!

Lego wrote:I find it amazing that the original Blue note recordings are described as musical and more involving etc.For me Blue note was one of the most boring ,sterile and unatmospheric of all the jazz recordings when compared to the likes of riverside/prestige and Impulse etc..So I cant imagine how bad CRs sound but I could easily guess.Better than rubbish doesnt make it good.'Audiophile like' is what I'd call Blue Note,how ironic is that.The pressings were good I just didnt like the way they recorded the music.The latter albums 90s etc sounded impressive but I very rarely played them ,which is always a sign for me.
Tune deming 2 items is all well and good if both of the items have some quality.waste of time if you are comparing 2 duffers.

I don't think anyone was referring to the old Blue Note recordings. Personally, I think the Blue Note 'Not Too Late' is a lovely recording and I can't think of another digital recording I own that strikes me as being any more tuneful. I listened to it many times for a while and at low volume and always thoroughly enjoyed it. Never enjoyed her first LP so much though which I bought on CR, so like you, the fact I don't often play an LP is not a good sign.

By the way, Blue Note has recently commissioned an Audiophile vinyl company to produce reissues, including Blue Train on 45RPM. I've not heard any, so don't know if they are as tuneful.

Classic Records LP Manufacturing Developments

Classic Records LP Manufacturing Developments

Many Thanks