tokenbrit wrote:

Spannko wrote:I think that what we’ve learned so far is that “something” about a ring main is very important to get right for best sound quality...

That's a worry since US wiring is radial only, so the only choice here is shared or dedicated. (unless someone knows better)

Sorry tokenbrit. I wasn’t suggesting that a ring circuit was better then a radial. I meant that the ring was the best that we’ve tested so far. A test using European and North American cable will follow later!

No worries. Just a shame that best results may not be applicable in all countries, but enjoying the tests anyway, and grateful for the opportunity to play along at home :)

OK, so how much money can we make by introducing North American audiophiles to ring mains architecture? ;-)

Sparky popped in this morning and changed my 32A rcbo (combined electronic “fuse” and earth leakage detector) for a 32A mcb (electronic “fuse”).

This came about for two reasons: one, Naim recommend the use of an mcb rather than an rcbo or an mcb with an additional rcd (residual current device aka earth leakage detector) and two, sparky informed me that I had a PME (protective multiple earth) mains system, as opposed to a TT mains arrangement I thought I had. This allowed the used of an rcd without a lot of earthing jiggery pokery to get the earth loop impedance low enough to ensure the safe operation of the rcd.

Sorry in advance for being a bit paternal! But this is why we need to employ the services of a qualified sparky! Mains electricity is lethal. A sparky keeps us safe, and in my case he’s suggested something I didn’t know was possible. Well worth the cost imho.

I should be able to post a comparison later in the week.

Great info, my Sparky's jnr is popping in tomorrow to discuss my requirements..

.. I'm struggling to get my head around all this so hope I manage to relay the priority, namely getting any earth loop impedance to a minimum plus MDSM plus M6100 being on a dedicated line (whether that turns out to be a Ring or a Radial)?

I don’t think I’ve explained myself too well Raylogic.

The only thing we “know”, with about 80% - 90% surety is that the cables direction has an effect on the sound and getting it the right way round is critical.

I’ve no idea how the earth loop impedance affects the sound. It’s a parameter your sparky will check to ensure your installation works within the regulations.

Things on the list to check are:

1) mcb v rcd v rcbo v cartridge fuse
2) best mcb, rcd, rcbo or cartridge fuse manufacturer
3) cable construction (ie t&e, VDU spec and possibly Romex)
4) ring circuit v radial circuit
5) cable csa
6) cable directionality - checked - possibly critical
7) best wall socket manufacturer

So, as you can see, we’ve quite a way to go before we can draw up a spec for the optimum way of powering our systems.

Thank you.

I see..Ok well I'll just have a go and see what happens.

- I have an existing Ring at the position (may proof best)
- With limited funds I'm thinking this https://mcru.co.uk/product/mcru-audioph ... cba1185463
- and this https://mcru.co.uk/product/ms-hd-power- ... ver_plated
- and see what they can do with this https://www.dropbox.com/s/cq277e6aksgmb ... 9.jpg?dl=0

2.5mm ring circuit Vs 4mm generic “arctic” flex radial circuit

Before moving on to shortening the long leg of the ring circuit I thought it may be interesting to compare the 2.5mm ring circuit to a 4mm arctic flex radial circuit.

The videos can be found here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6fhf0gn3ef34 ... LemGa?dl=0

Enjoy!

I prefer B. I hear A as a little more squeezed (intervals between notes less well defined) and a little more restless musical timing (forced).

B, but hope I am not being duped by better sound (timing & dynamics)
Not easy to be certain listening on my phone. Begs the question: how do others listen to the clips? Do you just use a phone or laptop, or do you download, add to your library, and playback through your system?

I thought B for tracks 2 and 3. Didn't bother with 1.

I was using an iPad but being Easter hols, the connection kept playing up so I thought best to try again later and be sure.

I mostly listen via iPad, iPhone and Windows laptop - with and without dedicated screen. The screen is much less tuneful than the laptop itself so I often undock prior to listening.

Mostly just via ipad (with and without headphones).

Charlie1 wrote:I thought B for tracks 2 and 3. Didn't bother with 1.

I was using an iPad but being Easter hols, the connection kept playing up so I thought best to try again later and be sure.

I mostly listen via iPad, iPhone and Windows laptop - with and without dedicated screen. The screen is much less tuneful than the laptop itself so I often undock prior to listening.

Have you tried closing your eyes charlie1?

I find that listening through iPad speakers reveals the musical differences without me being being impressed by the HiFi stuff, which I also like, but not at the expense of musicality.

Spannko wrote:Have you tried closing your eyes charlie1?

:)

Definitely preferred B. On all three A sounded a bit sluggish and disjointed. Especially on Little Susie I really enjoyed listening to B, on A the guitar sounded like it was pushing at me yet it was harder to hear what it was actually doing, if that makes sense.

I thought we'd had this discussion here before, but it could have just been one I had with Fredrik. I find that listening to these clips through a full DS/system to make it harder to hear what is going on. I think the bass anomalies of the room it is recorded in laid on top of the bass anomalies in the room it is being played back in make the sound bad enough it is hard to listen to the musicality. In other words the sound gets in the way of the music. I am not a big headphone/earpod kind of guy so I mostly listen to the speakers in my older iMac at work (as I just did now), or sometimes on my old, active Meridian speakers hooked up to the MacPro I have at home. Sometimes on my iPhone speakers as well. In these cases it is usually pretty simple to hear the tune differences.

B here as well.

I agree with the multiple bass anomalies theory. I use my iPhone 7+ and Bose Quietcomfort 35 headphones. When in doubt about which clip is better, I switch to the original Apple earpods that came with the phone. They sound less "nice" but are a bit easier to reach a decision with.

Everyone’s favourite turns out to be the 4mm radial!

BUT, there were a number of differences other than the type of circuit:

1) The radial was a stranded cable, the ring was a solid core cable.
2) The cores were twisted in the radial and running parallel in the ring

Also, the ring was laid in one continuous length, with the insulation removed without cutting the core where the cable enters the wall outlet. But, would it be better to cut the cable to ensure each leg runs in the best sounding direction? Thinking about it, I suppose the answer to that question has to be “yes”.

Blimey, I didn’t know this was going to be so complex! Every answer generates another two questions!

Before moving on, I think it would be worth returning to the ring circuit and optimise the cable direction in each leg. Does that seem reasonable, or would anyone suggest a different approach?

PS. Thinking about things even more, I’m not sure there’s any mileage in listening to different ring circuit leg lengths. If we hear a difference, we’ll never know if it’s the ratio of leg lengths or the absolute length which is the determining factor. Either way, it would be difficult to implement the “optimum ring circuit” design into a multitude of different domestic settings. I still think it’s worth checking the ring cable directions though.

Spannko wrote:Blimey, I didn’t know this was going to be so complex! Every answer generates another two questions!

Tell me about it! I already bought 12 & 14AWG solid. Now I'm looking at stranded... I haven't even started my tests yet, and the list is growing :/

To your dilemma, the radial seems so unanimously better that I wonder if you can bring the ring up to the same level. It should be an easy test though, right, to change the cable direction on one leg of the ring? Start there for simplicity?

Great stuff tokenbrit! Are you going to post any videos of your experiments?

I think that testing the ring circuit cable directions is a good next step too.

Spannko wrote:Are you going to post any videos of your experiments?

That's the plan :)
At least we only have radial here, so just wire gauge, direction, and cable length to play with... although stranded has a different construction and usually gets fed through a conduit so that could make a difference too...
As you say, each answer raises more questions, potentially :!

Excellent! It’s possible to get US “Romex” in the UK, but it’s very expensive. I look forward to hearing the results of your experiments.

Sparky fitted a 4mm t@e radial circuit this morning. Initial thoughts are very similar to charlie1’s in that the sound is very impressive, but I’m sure the tune is worse. This makes for quite a tiresome listen and I can’t wait to turn it off! So I’m going to leave the system running, close the door and do some gardening for a couple of days! When (if) it’s run in, I’ll post some vids comparing the 4mm t@e radial to everyone’s current favourite, the 4mm arctic flex radial.

What is t@e?

In my experience, there's no point in running anything in if the initial impression is how you describe it.

lejonklou wrote:What is t@e?.

Twin and earth below with typical flat cross section:


The 4mm t&e installed here comprises multi-strand Live and Neutral, (as shown above), whereas the 2.5mm t&e is all solid copper.

Spannko, is it legal to run flex from the fuseboard to a socket? Just worndering how my sparky will react if I ask about it that's all.