Optimal House Wiring

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Spannko
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

I’ve been keeping quiet because I don’t want to influence the outcome of the tests.

Here’s the next test. I forgot to change the A/B sign, so they’re all marked B on the videos. So this time it’s the first three videos Vs the last three videos.

Enjoy.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ihjn4gbdn5bq ... SscCa?dl=0
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by lejonklou »

This is going too fast for me.

I just listened to the Bob Marley track and found myself having problems choosing between A and B, because the bass player is not very well timed on either of them. He plays like a machine, although not quite the same machine on A as on B.

I can't pick "the lesser of two evils", because I need to connect to the song. Without connection, I can't pick.

Apologies for the negativity!!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by lejonklou »

lejonklou wrote:This is going too fast for me.

I just listened to the Bob Marley track and found myself having problems choosing between A and B, because the bass player is not very well timed on either of them. He plays like a machine, although not quite the same machine on A as on B.

I can't pick "the lesser of two evils", because I need to connect to the song. Without connection, I can't pick.

Apologies for the negativity!!
Is it just me?
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

lejonklou wrote:
lejonklou wrote:This is going too fast for me.

I just listened to the Bob Marley track and found myself having problems choosing between A and B, because the bass player is not very well timed on either of them. He plays like a machine, although not quite the same machine on A as on B.

I can't pick "the lesser of two evils", because I need to connect to the song. Without connection, I can't pick.

Apologies for the negativity!!
Is it just me?
No, it is not just you. As I pointed out earlier I do not like the later clips.

We are in kind of unknown waters (I am at least). Using a Sondek as source is one thing. Most of us in here can relate to its musicality.
Listening to Exact streaming is new to most of us through clips and as we can hear a different kind of “fish”.

I think we need an open proces where we can discuss pros and cons to get a better picture. Not a right versus wrong battle. There is nothing wrong with the clips as such provided that we can trust a selected Exact setup to deliver consistently.

Question to Spannko: Are you in a hurry having a deadline?

It took me a couple of years to get my setup as I wanted it.

I think it is alright to make clips Spannko. We just need a more calm proces with room for discussion.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

I'm on the train and it's taking while to buffer so only compared the Beethoven. I prefer the second B recorded at 23 54 17. The other clip seemed more jumbled especially as it progressed and got more complex.

Fredrik, I've got no bass and can't really hear Bob properly. Will listen tomorrow when home.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

My position has not changed with your latest clips Spannko. I do not like them. Again not doing this to create tension. Just trying to be as honest as possible.
I am rather enjoying your early ring main clips through my system at the moment. I will even choose direction A from test 1, 2 and 3!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote:Thanks for your feedback gentlemen.

A) was the 2.5mm t&e ring circuit. B) was the 4mm arctic flex radial circuit.
I'm confused. First time through "[e]veryone’s favourite turn[ed] out to be the 4mm radial" against the ring circuit, so what has changed with the ring to now be better than the radial?
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:
lejonklou wrote:I just listened to the Bob Marley track and found myself having problems choosing between A and B, because the bass player is not very well timed on either of them. He plays like a machine, although not quite the same machine on A as on B
Is it just me?
If I listen and think 'is the bass out of time' then I can't honestly say I can hear that. However, the bass does sound a little separate from the whole, which probably amounts to the same thing you describe. I may sound like I'm being awkward but just explaining my interpretation.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Thanks again for all of your feedback gentlemen - it’s actually been very helpful.

I’m sorry if it’s all felt a bit rushed. One reason is that my sparky wants to sign the whole installation off and he will probably have completed his tests within 2 days. Secondly, I don’t particularly enjoy the process - kissing frogs isn’t much fun! I’d much rather just be listening to music. But, I know that if I persevere, some good will come of it and hopefully we’ll all benefit.

With regard to the variance in sound quality, maybe I haven’t given the cables long enough to burn in, and people can hear the changes? Maybe it would be better to connect all the cables into a line and use them to power something continuously for 1/2/3/4 months before redoing all the comparisons? What would people suggest?
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

I would go back and use ring main (direction A) for a long time and then try direction B from the first three tests for a period. I have listened to all your clips and the only ones I naturally can sing/hum along to in tune is ring main A.
If you then want to try the others get them “burned in”? one way or the other and try them for longer periods one at a time and turn back and compare to the ring main you like best (direction A or B) for each other cable you try.
My 2 cents only.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:
lejonklou wrote:
lejonklou wrote:I just listened to the Bob Marley track and found myself having problems choosing between A and B, because the bass player is not very well timed on either of them. He plays like a machine, although not quite the same machine on A as on B
Is it just me?
If I listen and think 'is the bass out of time' then I can't honestly say I can hear that. However, the bass does sound a little separate from the whole, which probably amounts to the same thing you describe. I may sound like I'm being awkward but just explaining my interpretation.
I didn't mean "out of time", I meant that it lacks groove. Subtle timing. I have listened to this record so many times and the songs are immediately captivating. This wasn't, it was more like a 2018 studio version.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by lejonklou »

beck wrote:I would go back and use ring main (direction A) for a long time and then try direction B from the first three tests for a period. I have listened to all your clips and the only ones I naturally can sing/hum along to in tune is ring main A.
If you then want to try the others get them “burned in”? one way or the other and try them for longer periods one at a time and turn back and compare to the ring main you like best (direction A or B) for each other cable you try.
My 2 cents only.
I've probably said it before, but "burn in" won't affect the outcome of the tests. The differences between 2.5, 4 and 6 mm2, for instance, will be far bigger and more fundamental than any differences related to burn in.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote:
beck wrote:I would go back and use ring main (direction A) for a long time and then try direction B from the first three tests for a period. I have listened to all your clips and the only ones I naturally can sing/hum along to in tune is ring main A.
If you then want to try the others get them “burned in”? one way or the other and try them for longer periods one at a time and turn back and compare to the ring main you like best (direction A or B) for each other cable you try.
My 2 cents only.
I've probably said it before, but "burn in" won't affect the outcome of the tests. The differences between 2.5, 4 and 6 mm2, for instance, will be far bigger and more fundamental than any differences related to burn in.
That’s good to know, thank you.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: .. "burn in" won't affect the outcome of the tests. The differences between 2.5, 4 and 6 mm2, for instance, will be far bigger and more fundamental than any differences related to burn in.
That makes me all the more curious as to what changed (fundamentally) between the early test when most if not all of us preferred radial over ring, and the later test when we got the opposite result?
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Right then. It’s back to the drawing board!

I’ve been talking to sparky this morning about “clean earths”, but he said it’s not something he knows anything about and that I’d need to speak to a specialist. However, we talked about the possibility of using an earth spike and it appears to be a relatively straightforward process. When we moved into the house, we had a T-T earthing system with our own earth spike. During the renovation, an earlier sparky converted us to a PME (protective multiple earth) system where the earth is supplied by the electricity company via an armoured cable which is earthed to Mother Earth at multiple points along its length. Apparently, all we need is an earth spike/spikes of sufficiently low impedance to replace the PME supplied by the electricity company. I spoke to him about safety and he said that providing the Earth impedance was low enough it would be perfectly safe. By coincidence, he spoke to an assessor last week who told him that because the power distribution networks haven’t been upgraded for 60 years, and the government can’t afford to do so, some properties are being converted back to T-T because the PME’s are starting to break down.

As a way forward, I’m thinking of going back to 2.5mm cables, redoing the ring circuit direction test and comparing the winner with 2.5mm flex (normal and arctic), 2.5mm t&e radial, 2.5mm European power cable (NYY) and 2.5mm power/control cable. I’ll try and make it more collaborative, with more feedback on what I’m hearing in the room and tests repeated if necessary. Hopefully this will address everyone’s concerns.

PS.
Sparky is coming back on Friday to give me a T-T earthing system. Because we haven’t much time, what circuit arrangement would people like me to use for the comparison? I’m thinking 4mm euro spec (NYY-J). It’s one we haven’t tried, so hopefully it won’t have any preconceived ideas associated with it. What do you all think?
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

We all need a noise free earth connection to get the best out of our systems. I do not know how to do it but noise can be messured. I do not think that clips are needed.

The second thing I would like to say is that you have to take a step back on the thought that it is possible to find the perfect power cable (that we can find it by good/bad comparison) that can make your system sing. You have to find a starting point that you can enjoy. This means that you have to listen to a setup that you can enjoy for a longer period.
I would suggest that you pick the one that you enjoyed the most and start there. My pick would be ring main A but it is your ears that has to decide. Then after a long listening period you can try to improve on it one small step at a time (each time with no hurry) always being ready to go back to your starting point.

At best you will after months/years of triel and error find a really enjoyable setup. At worst you will realise that your system is not what you are looking for.

Again just my 2 cents.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote: The second thing I would like to say is that you have to take a step back on the thought that it is possible to find the perfect power cable (that we can find it by good/bad comparison) that can make your system sing. You have to find a starting point that you can enjoy. This means that you have to listen to a setup that you can enjoy for a longer period.

I would suggest that you pick the one that you enjoyed the most and start there. My pick would be ring main A but it is your ears that has to decide. Then after a long listening period you can try to improve on it one small step at a time (each time with no hurry) always being ready to go back to your starting point.
Yes, it's good to have a safe harbour that you can return to, based on my frustrating experiences with mains. Whilst it's exciting and rewarding to make progress, there's nothing worse than going backwards and knowing that it's all your doing.

At the same time, I do understand your time pressures and eagerness to find the optimum solution. Maybe Beck is right though and you'll have to settle for 'better' rather than 'best'. See what happens. Just need to make sure it's not 'worse' than when you started out.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Thanks again gents.

Beck, were your favourite clips recorded before the 28 March? The breaker was changed on that date and I’m wondering if it’s related to you not liking the later clips?
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote:Thanks again gents.

Beck, were your favourite clips recorded before the 28 March? The breaker was changed on that date and I’m wondering if it’s related to you not liking the later clips?
Yes, test 1, 2 and 3 main ring A direction.

The next test was on the 30. of March. Main B versus flex
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote:
Spannko wrote:Thanks again gents.

Beck, were your favourite clips recorded before the 28 March? The breaker was changed on that date and I’m wondering if it’s related to you not liking the later clips?
Yes, test 1, 2 and 3 main ring A direction.

The next test was on the 30. of March. Main B versus flex
That’s great, thanks. I’ve a strong suspicion that the problems are related to the change of breaker (mcb).
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote:
beck wrote:
Spannko wrote:Thanks again gents.

Beck, were your favourite clips recorded before the 28 March? The breaker was changed on that date and I’m wondering if it’s related to you not liking the later clips?
Yes, test 1, 2 and 3 main ring A direction.

The next test was on the 30. of March. Main B versus flex
That’s great, thanks. I’ve a strong suspicion that the problems are related to the change of breaker (mcb).
Just remember that my change of heart regarding the clips also is reflected in a comparison between the clips in the first 3 tests before the 28. of March.
I just have had more time to listen and get used to the sound of your system. Differing views are not uncommon here.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

I may have found another potential problem with my house wiring. The sparky has used the yellow/green earth wire, which was connected to the original earth spike, to connect to the copper pipes on the house side of the gas meter, so this is now an equipotential bond rather than a safety conductor. But, he didn’t change the position of the cable on the consumer unit so in effect I’ve now got two ground points which I think has created an earth loop. I’ve no idea how this could affect the sound, but I’m sure it’s not right.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

As my last resort when in doubt listening to clips I have used some of the PA systems I come across when teaching music.
They have proved very reliable to me when jugding the tuneful aspect of my own clips. When in doubt I connect my ipad to a 1000 watt console driving some big PA speakers in one of the music schools I work in. The sound is very dry and the room is sound isolated. Even the slightest deviation in the harmonic structure of the recorded music is very easy to hear.
The above Exact clips in this tread show up different pros and cons but none of them are satisfying to me from a “tune” perspective. They do not show up a natural harmonic structure. Not very helpful. Sorry.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

No problem, beck. All feedback is useful - even the negatives - which are really useful, because they can indicate which way to go next in order to find the positives.

I’ve found a control cable which seems to work well, and I’ve got a larger version arriving on Tuesday, so the project’s still very much alive!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Update:

The more I experiment with the house wiring, the more interesting it gets!

I thought I’d try powering the NAS and DS off the normal house ring circuit, whilst powering the power amps off the “HiFi” radial circuit. To my surprise, I preferred the result, which goes against everything I’ve believed about how a system “should” be powered. The fidelity (“HiFi” stuff like transparency, soundstage, bass depth etc) was quite a bit better, and the musicality (rhythms and tunes) took a slight step forward too, which is not what I expected.

I’m beginning to wonder if either my NAS (Melco N1a-ZH) or my KDS/2 is very sensitive to something connected with the amps in the Dorik stands. I’m not sure what yet, but wiring them all off one socket sounds incredibly constrained compared to powering them individually. So much so, there has to be a better way!

I’m putting in 4 separate 4mm YY flex radial circuits so I’ll be able to try:

1) Everthing off one circuit
2) NAS off one circuit and everything else off another circuit
3) NAS and DS off one circuit and speakers off another circuit
4) Everything off its own circuit

My goal is to find a combination which has great sonics combined with great musicality. It feels to be so important, I just can’t let this one go - watch this space!
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