Optimal House Wiring

Hardware and software, modifications and DIY

Moderator: Staff

Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Good question charlie1. I believe that any cable can be used for any purpose providing (and it’s a huge proviso) the installation complies with the relevant British Standards (in the U.K.) which covers things like volt drop, current carrying capacity, mechanical strength, disconnection times etc. (which also means that not all cables can be used in all installations). The BS’s have been distilled down into guidelines which makes cable choice easy for the sparky, but they don’t cover every eventuality.

When we’ve chosen our favourite cable, it will be up to our sparkys to ensure the installation complies. For the arctic flex, I think it needs additional protection with pvc conduit. However, I’m really hoping that our eventual favourite cable requires no such jiggery pokery!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote:For the arctic flex, I think it needs additional protection with pvc conduit.
Makes sense - thanks Spannko. My wife loves a bit trunking going round the walls - it really helps cement our relationship and reminds her why she married me ;)
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

That made me laugh charlie1. I like to leave my wife little reminders like that too, and she often likes to remind me how lucky I am to have her because no one else would put up with me!

I forgot to add this link to sparkys discussing the subject:

https://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/mes ... TMP=Linear
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Ring Circuit Test 2

When we listened to the first 2.5mm t&e ring circuit, we preferred the writing on the cable running into the socket on the short leg and out of the socket on the long leg.

This time, the two options are either the writing running towards the socket on both legs or away from the socket on both legs. As usual, a coin was tossed to randomise the labelling of A or B.

There’s also a photo of some goodies I’ve been collecting for a future series of tests!

Have fun!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fw0trdc4ysaq ... kykWa?dl=0
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

I'm feeling A a bit more than B
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

On a quick listen I agree with Tokenbrit.
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

I'm kinda split, although I wouldn't put much value on my opinion - it's not very reliable with these clips, which is why I also like to share them.

I think overall A is the more engaging, but not sure the rhythm is as good. B seems safer, a bit less interesting, but also a bit less nervous beat-wise. But I could be imagining this.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Thanks guys.

I agree with you all that A is better than B.

I think your ears are probably better than you give them credit for Charli1! You’ve correctly identified that whilst A is a bit more musical than B, A isn’t perfect and still has slight tuning issues. A has a very nice sound - almost perfect I’d say - it’s clean, clear, spacious, sweet as a nut, nice detail without a hint of sibilance, full but not over exaggerated bass. The speakers literally disappear. BUT, it struggles with the tune, which is ruining a Beethoven piano sonata I’m listening to as I type this.

So, the search continues! Next up is a battle between a 2.5mm t&e ring circuit (with the cables running in our preferred direction ie A (above)) and a 4mm t&e radial circuit.

Stay tuned!

EDIT: After Lejonklou’s input (below), we’ll compare the winning 2.5mm t&e ring to the 4mm arctic flex radial. The winner of that test will then take on the 4mm t&e radial.
Last edited by Spannko on 2018-04-18 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote:Ring Circuit Test 2

When we listened to the first 2.5mm t&e ring circuit, we preferred the writing on the cable running into the socket on the short leg and out of the socket on the long leg.

This time, the two options are either the writing running towards the socket on both legs or away from the socket on both legs. As usual, a coin was tossed to randomise the labelling of A or B.
Do you feel that these last two options are worse than the first 2.5mm2 t&e ring circuit?

In my experience, the way you have now done it with the ring cut in two parts that are in opposite directions doesn't sound any good. Best is likely to be not cutting the ring at all, leaving it as one continuous cable.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote:
Spannko wrote:Ring Circuit Test 2

When we listened to the first 2.5mm t&e ring circuit, we preferred the writing on the cable running into the socket on the short leg and out of the socket on the long leg.

This time, the two options are either the writing running towards the socket on both legs or away from the socket on both legs. As usual, a coin was tossed to randomise the labelling of A or B.
Do you feel that these last two options are worse than the first 2.5mm2 t&e ring circuit?

In my experience, the way you have now done it with the ring cut in two parts that are in opposite directions doesn't sound any good. Best is likely to be not cutting the ring at all, leaving it as one continuous cable.
I’m not sure to be honest. We compared the 2.5mm t&e ring running in both directions and then compared the winner to a 4mm arctic flex radial, which everyone preferred. We then listened to a 2.5mm t&e ring with the cable being split and the cables running either in or out of the socket. So we’ve not actually compared the continuous 2.5mm t&e ring circuit to the “broken” circuit. Your question has made me think that we now need to compare the winners of the previous two tests to complete the circuit, as it were!

So the next test will be between the 4mm arctic flex radial circuit (which beat our favourite 2.5mm continuous t&e ring circuit) and the winner of the 2.5mm “broken” t&e ring circuit.
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

Always sensible to listen to Lejonklou. You need a “golden standard” to compare all new solutions with. :-)
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Hopefully, this will help to let everyone know how we’re doing. One more test, then we should have the “current champ” which all others will have to beat.

current champ”: see what I did there!


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jyyq3o7nctkw ... hyfea?dl=0
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

The ring shows some potential but I'll be shocked if the radial doesn't win... We're here to spur you on :)
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by lejonklou »

I really appreciate you sharing the results of your tests, Spannko.

I don't have any definitive answers in this department, only some experiences that I'm happy to share but at the same time I wouldn't want you to exclude any tests and miss some important discovery.

Anyway, here are a few thoughts that you can choose to ignore and perhaps prove wrong in the process, apologies if they've been mentioned before:
• I'm slightly sceptical of the t&e cables as shown in Charlie's picture above. I find that the best conductor for live and neutral is often (but not always) the best for earth as well.
• I find that multi strand is often better than single core. How's the Arctic Flex built?
• It seems the choice between 2.5 and 4 square mm depends on the construction, brand and model of the cable, there's no size of these two that's proven consistently best. I have however not found anything thinner or thicker that has seemed better than within the span of 2.5 - 4 mm2.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote:I really appreciate you sharing the results of your tests, Spannko.

I don't have any definitive answers in this department, only some experiences that I'm happy to share but at the same time I wouldn't want you to exclude any tests and miss some important discovery.

Anyway, here are a few thoughts that you can choose to ignore and perhaps prove wrong in the process, apologies if they've been mentioned before:
• I'm slightly sceptical of the t&e cables as shown in Charlie's picture above. I find that the best conductor for live and neutral is often (but not always) the best for earth as well.
• I find that multi strand is often better than single core. How's the Arctic Flex built?
• It seems the choice between 2.5 and 4 square mm depends on the construction, brand and model of the cable, there's no size of these two that's proven consistently best. I have however not found anything thinner or thicker that has seemed better than within the span of 2.5 - 4 mm2.

You’re most welcome, and thanks to everyone for joining in. It’s gives the results much more credibility.

I share your concerns re the earth cable on the t&e cables. It’s the same for all sizes of t&e.

I’m trying to keep an open mind about stranded vs solid core because I’d like to see if we can uncover any kind of pattern. At the moment I have a feeling that solid core sounds silky smooth but has tune problems and multi strand sounds coarser but is more musical. However I have to stress that this is a gut feeling reinforced by many years of HiFi indoctrination!

Arctic flex is made like most loudspeaker cables: the 4mm has 56 strands with PVC insulation and PVC sheath. From what I understand, the first speaker cables (in the 70’s) were a modified mains flex. It’s interesting that the most musical speaker cables have been 4mm with 56 strands.

LAPP Kabel make a couple of 4mm cables. One with one solid strand and one with 56 strands. Otherwise they’re very similar, so they’re both on the list for a sound-off against the Current Champ.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Here’s the next instalment of the mains wiring listening tests.

Simply select A or B

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g2spte7amtq6 ... TXRea?dl=0
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

I would choose A.

One of my more important statements on this forum in the early days years ago to Charlie1 was that I make mistakes all the time. I always question my findings. When writing it does not come across very clearly.

Not being fully satisfied with any of the later clips I listened back on 2.5 mm ring circuit versus arctic flex radial and found (to my big surprice) that I do not agree with myself anymore.

It is a good thing that nothing gets deleted so it is possible to go back and check ones findings.

I predict that in the end I will choose the 2.5 mm ring circuit. It does not make a big fuss out of what it does but I can sing along with ease not feeling disturbed.
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Interesting comments beck, but I wouldn’t choose the winner just yet! Before we crown the Current Champ we’ve got quite a few cables to try: 4, 6 & 10mm t&e. 4, 6 & 10mm European standard power cable (NYY-J spec). 6mm arctic flex. And 4, 6, 10mm “control” cable, to name just a few!

Personally, I think the best is yet to come!
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote:Interesting comments beck, but I wouldn’t choose the winner just yet! Before we crown the Current Champ we’ve got quite a few cables to try: 4, 6 & 10mm t&e. 4, 6 & 10mm European standard power cable (NYY-J spec). 6mm arctic flex. And 4, 6, 10mm “control” cable, to name just a few!

Personally, I think the best is yet to come!
You are right. I am getting ahead of myself and do not wish to ruin the tests.
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

No problem beck. I didn’t think you would ruin the tests, I just thought you might change your mind again further down the line.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

I'm not Canadian, A :)
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

This one reminded me slightly of the pre 1st vs Radikal 1st debate a while back. Anyway, another vote for A. More tuneful and emotive. However, I did like one element of B - during the start of the reggae track, in particular, it just seemed more in sync between instruments.

I need to get myself some more reggae. I've hardly got anything. Which artist/song is that Spannko?
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote:No problem beck. I didn’t think you would ruin the tests, I just thought you might change your mind again further down the line.
It can happen. At the moment I do not trust my ears listening to your system. More importantly there are others to listen to and in the end your own ears. :-)
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Thanks for your feedback gentlemen.

I’m sensing a bit of confusion which is challenging your belief in your ability to make the right call. It might even be sensing a bit of tension!

Trust your instincts, then simply choose A or B. Even if they both sound awful to you, just go for the lesser of two evils. It isn’t much fun kissing frogs, but some day, our prince will come!

A) was the 2.5mm t&e ring circuit. B) was the 4mm arctic flex radial circuit.

Charlie1, the reggae track was Bob Marley, Forever Loving Jah from the album Uprising

Next up is the 2.5mm t&e ring circuit Vs 6mm arctic flex radial circuit.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks. I didn't think it was Bob although I only listened to the first 10-20 secs.

You're not telling us much about what you think Spannko.
Post Reply