Optimal House Wiring

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Spannko
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

tokenbrit wrote:Hey Spannko, thanks for posting. I agree with others here with regards preferred direction for musicality.
One quick question: when you are changing cable direction are you keeping all 3 sections oriented consistently with each other? So:

--- 7m --->[ ]-----11m ----->[ ]--- 7m --->
<--- 7m ---[ ]<-----11m -----[ ]<--- 7m ---
If you can imagine the two ends being joined together at the consumer unit, forming a loop, and sockets fitted where you placed the parenthesis, then for A, one socket is used and for B, the other socket is used.

At the moment I’m using one cable running in the same direction around the ring. Your question has made me wonder what would happen if I had the cables running in the same direction into the socket? That’ll be experiment No.2!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote:
tokenbrit wrote:Hey Spannko, thanks for posting. I agree with others here with regards preferred direction for musicality.
One quick question: when you are changing cable direction are you keeping all 3 sections oriented consistently with each other?
If you can imagine the two ends being joined together at the consumer unit, forming a loop, and sockets fitted where you placed the parenthesis, then for A, one socket is used and for B, the other socket is used.

At the moment I’m using one cable running in the same direction around the ring...
So, if you'll excuse the diagram, then something like this?
--->--[A]---->11m---->-->--
( 7m .......ring main...... 7m )
----<---[consumer unit]---<---

Surprising that there is such a difference in musicality between the 2 sockets... I'd be interested to find out if it has been consistent, and if it's the first or the second socket from the consumer unit as you follow the cable around the ring.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

tokenbrit wrote:
Spannko wrote:
tokenbrit wrote:Hey Spannko, thanks for posting. I agree with others here with regards preferred direction for musicality.
One quick question: when you are changing cable direction are you keeping all 3 sections oriented consistently with each other?
If you can imagine the two ends being joined together at the consumer unit, forming a loop, and sockets fitted where you placed the parenthesis, then for A, one socket is used and for B, the other socket is used.

At the moment I’m using one cable running in the same direction around the ring...
So, if you'll excuse the diagram, then something like this?
--->--[A]---->11m---->-->--
( 7m .......ring main...... 7m )
----<---[consumer unit]---<---

Surprising that there is such a difference in musicality between the 2 sockets... I'd be interested to find out if it has been consistent, and if it's the first or the second socket from the consumer unit as you follow the cable around the ring.


That’s correct.

I can’t comment on the sound until all votes are in!

TBH, I don’t know for sure which is the first or second socket in the ring - it depends on which way the juice flows!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote:I can’t comment on the sound until all votes are in!

TBH, I don’t know for sure which is the first or second socket in the ring - it depends on which way the juice flows!
No prob - I should have said I will be interested... in what more people think & then what's what with the wires.

Thomas has used text direction as a reference point. In the case of a ring main, is it possible to consider 'with text clockwise or with text anti-clockwise? So experiment 2 should have two stages - shouldn't say phases ;) - as you can change the direction of each 7m cable from consumer to socket.
Glad you have a patient sparky. Has he (or she) heard the A/B differences? Wondering whether they have any thoughts or insight... if that doesn't cost extra :)

Not sure where you're located but, speaking of electrickery, if you're not in mainland EU at least your clocks, & tea, are on time ;)
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Thanks for your input tokenbrit.

There’s a couple of slight problems with describing the text direction. One is that the text direction for best sound could change from batch to batch. Secondly, if you imagine your drawing flipped horizontally, the text will read in the opposite direction! We could record the text direction to the first socket being used for experimental purposes, but it may not be universally applicable.

The sparky is a mate of the plumber we’ve been using who is a proper vinyl head with a technics 1200, NAD pre/power and Keilids. He’s borrowing a pair of keilidh stands off me at the moment and I’ve also agreed to lend him a Rega arm to put on an LP12 until he can afford an akito. He wants a dedicated supply for his system too, so they’ve all got a bit of a vested interest.

As for input from the sparks - not a chance! They think I’m mad! The first spark repeatedly tried to convince me that whatever I do won’t make the slightest difference. Rich (the plumber) is well into it though, which makes things a bit easier but the builders still think we’re both a little bit mad!

Thanks for the vid too. If that isn’t a good enough reason for leaving Europe, I don’t know what is!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

Yep, I meant description of direction only as a reference in your experiments, and this ring main installation, so that you & we can keep tabs on what's changed. No implication meant that results would be universal - never that simple.

I can only imagine the look on the sparky's face. There are plenty on the music/hifi forums who wouldn't believe it either, even if they heard it for themselves.

Thanks again for taking the time & trouble, and for sharing the recordings. And you're welcome - enjoy your tea :)
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by ThomasOK »

Very cool video. Of course, all the clocks running in my house are now all digital so the frequency doesn't matter, not to mention that they read an hour different than they did a week ago anyway! On top of that they all get synced to my iPhone which automatically knows what time it is and when the time goes whacky by an hour, except the clock in my thermostat which autocorrects itself. Isn't technology wonderful?!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

I like the synchronisation. Obvious Clock Deviations give me the jitters ;)

This thread is inspiring me to get a dedicated spur put in and to post clips of cable direction. May even go so far as to test 10-2 against 12-2, and 120 against 240 if I can find a willing sparky.
Will be watching when Spannko gets to the cable shortening experment to see if the effects are subtle or significant.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote:I’ve done some more recordings, but just for fun I’ve added a little twist! Everything is exactly the same except I tossed a coin for the naming of the cables (A & B).

TEST 2
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c3a8a5zq1gbv ... _hTGa?dl=0
I've struggled this time. Droxbox is constantly dropping out on me so I have to keep re-listening and then I kind of lose any ability to tell what's what. My initial preference was for A except for the Cohen track.

I don't understand the 'twist' either.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote:
Spannko wrote:I’ve done some more recordings, but just for fun I’ve added a little twist! Everything is exactly the same except I tossed a coin for the naming of the cables (A & B).

TEST 2
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c3a8a5zq1gbv ... _hTGa?dl=0
I've struggled this time. Droxbox is constantly dropping out on me so I have to keep re-listening and then I kind of lose any ability to tell what's what. My initial preference was for A except for the Cohen track.

I don't understand the 'twist' either.
The “twist” refers to a possible renaming of the sockets (A to B, B to A), or possibly not!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

If it helps Charlie, I believe that A & B are labeled consistently across all 3 songs in Test 2. I don't think there's a twist to the twist, just that A & B may be labeled dfferently to Test 1
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

Ah, ok, tx :)
Spannko
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

tokenbrit wrote:If it helps Charlie, I believe that A & B are labeled consistently across all 3 songs in Test 2. I don't think there's a twist to the twist, just that A & B may be labeled dfferently to Test 1
Correct!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote:
tokenbrit wrote:If it helps Charlie, I believe that A & B are labeled consistently across all 3 songs in Test 2. I don't think there's a twist to the twist, just that A & B may be labeled dfferently to Test 1
Correct!
I'm glad to see that so that I don't have to question my hearing! :-)
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Spannko
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

OK chaps, we’re on the last leg now. Only one more A or B decision to make, then I’ll reveal the results first thing Monday morning.

The reason for another set of sound clips is because we still don’t have a significant majority preference for one or the other, so it would be great if you could listen to the RingMainTest3 clips and review your preferences for test 1 & 2 again.

If you can describe your preference as Test1 (A), Test2 (B), Test3 (A), or whatever, hopefully we’ll have some sort of consensus and we can take it from there.

Remember, A & B have been randomised, by a toss of a coin, for each test and since there’s no significant consensus as of yet, it’s still all to play for!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nzhajm37un8k ... UlFFa?dl=0
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

I'm still slightly attracted to the homogeneous sound of A. This can be a tendency of mine and I sometimes miss that overall the other option is easier to follow. I think that's what's happening here, so having listened further, and without all the dropouts, my vote is for B.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by beck »

Listening to test 1,2 and 3 again I can hear that I went wrong in test 1 (charlie1’s fault ;-)). My take is that nothing has changed along the way. I vote for B in all three tests. Win or loose this has been fun! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

T2 was B for me. Will let you know on T1 & T3. (my laptop (&/or Dropbox) isn't happy atm)
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Re: Ring main direction test

Post by Spannko »

Spannko wrote:Here’s the first of the ring main tests I said I would carry out for everyone.

The ring is 25m in length, with a socket inserted 7m along each leg. Only the socket position changes, everything else is identical. The directions (A or B) can be seen clearly on the videos.

TEST 1
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dcibwzjf26tq ... L1T4a?dl=0

We’ll decide which way round sounds best, then I’ll get sparky in for a morning to reduce the long leg down to 7m in 0.5m increments. Should be fun!
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

tokenbrit wrote:T2 was B for me. Will let you know on T1 & T3. (my laptop (&/or Dropbox) isn't happy atm)
T1: A (struggled with the song in this one...)
T2: B
T3: B

I figured it was like a multiple choice exam paper so couldn't all be the same answer :)
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

It’s time to reveal the results ............... (drum roll) ........ !

Fortunately, as it happened, socket 1/direction 1 remained ‘A’ throughout the test and socket 2/direction 2 remained B, which makes explaining the results a bit easier.

Test 1 returned a mixture of A & B being preferred, but I think everyone preferred B in test 2 & 3.

To be fair, I think the results very accurately describe what I was hearing at home. For test 1, the cable was very new and was no where near run in and I didn’t really like either A or B tbh! From what I remember, the bass on A was slightly more musical than B and the mids/highs were slightly more musical on B, but overall they were both a step back from what I was used to (a 4mm flex radial). So I’m not surprised at all that we ended up with differing preferences.

Because of the mixed results I decided to run the test again. Everyone found this much easier because the sound of the cables had stabilised a bit, including me.

The day after recording Test 2 the system started to sound very strange. It had become extremely smooth and just a bit uninteresting. Fortunately a day or two later the sound was still smooth but the life had come back into the music so I decided to run the third and final test.

I have to say that I’m very impressed and congratulations to everyone. You managed to hear which way round a ring main sounds best by listening to an iPad recording! That’s a fantastic achievement! And a big well done to all those who followed along and got the answers right at home - as they say on the TV quiz shows!

Even as it is, the ring is much more musical than the radial I’ve been using, and that’s coming from exactly the same fuse into exactly the same socket. A big thanks to charlie1 for not giving up on trying to improve his mains supply and giving me an itch that I just had to scratch!

The next phase will involve shortening the longer length down to equal the shorter length in 0.5m steps. It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference. Then I’ll move on to radials to see how they compare, including using the type of cable commonly used in mainland Europe.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Can someone let me know what kind of cable is used for final power circuits in Europe please.

It looks like it might be 2.5mm NYM-J cable, protected with a 16A type C RCD, but it would be good to know for sure before I ask Sparky to source some for me.

NYM-J is like a cross between a T&E and a flex. The conductors are solid core (like T&E) but the cores are twisted (like flex).
Last edited by Spannko on 2018-03-19 18:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Charlie1 »

Glad we've been of help. Your post does explain much of the confusion so that's nice to know.

Ref cables, and not sure it helps much, but my sparky said that the 2.5mm was solid copper and the 4mm was fine twisted strands. He said it in a way to suggest that this was standard in the UK.

I am not sure if my spurs are linked back to the fuse board or not. If that are not then are they called 'radial' circuits? And if they aren't linked back, then perhaps my sparky could try using the 4mm out to a socket and the 2.5mm back to the new fuseboard. What do you think?
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by Spannko »

Thanks charlie1. Yes, everyone’s been a great help.

I think that what we’ve learned so far is that “something” about a ring main is very important to get right for best sound quality.

It could be the cable direction of the entire intact ring (ie, looping the cable in and out of the socket without cutting it), ratio of leg lengths, cable direction of each leg, or something else. Hopefully, when we’ve been through all the different options we’ll know exactly what kind of power supply is needed to get the best out of our systems.

A radial originates at the consumer unit and a spur is like a mini radial tapped off a ring. TBH, I’m not sure what to ask your sparky to try next. It might be worth waiting until we’ve heard the effect of reducing the long leg of the ring first.
Last edited by Spannko on 2018-03-20 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Optimal House Wiring

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote:I think that what we’ve learned so far is that “something” about a ring main is very important to get right for best sound quality...
That's a worry since US wiring is radial only, so the only choice here is shared or dedicated. (unless someone knows better)
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