Optimal House Wiring

[tokenbrit]

Noticeable improvement from 1&2 to 3&4. 5&6 sound nasty. 3&4 are quite beguiling.

[beck]

What a great system you have maffe!

I will go with nasty. Who would have guessed. The performers are more "together". With the other clips I get a "side by side" feeling of the musicians.

[Charlie1]

Yes, lovely sounding (and looking) system!

I've listened a few separate times now and this is very similar to the recent power strip thread.

Clip 4 sounds purer. Individual elements (instruments or vocals) seemed easier to follow on one or more occasions, but at other times that didn't come across.

Clip 6 does come across more 'together' to me, although on one or two listens I lost that and preferred clip 4. Other times the various elements do not fight one another and all sit nicely.

Overall, I think clip 6 is the safer one for me and is the one I'd go for, provided I could only listen to these clips.

[lejonklou]

Very enjoyable and what a cool system!

I find these clips to be very convincing regarding the Trim feature of Tundra Mono (track 3 and 4 sound a lot better to me than 1 and 2).

But regarding the dedicated mains, I have mixed feelings. 3 and 4 sound much nicer, there's definitely an aspect that is more right in them. But I also feel that something is easier to understand in 5 and 6.

I don't know the reason here, so the following is pure speculation on my part. It sounds as if the cable to the dedicated outlet was running in the wrong direction. Or that the porcelain fuse is of a special high end kind that causes some funny effect. Cleaner power, but with the wrong parts?

[ThomasOK]

You could of course go one step further and have your own power pole installed:
https://thevinylfactory.com/news/japane ... lity-pole/

If you watch the video the one who is really a bit scary is the guy at the end with the 250 square foot apartment he rents so he can spend all his money on the Hi-Fi. If I ever have to move my couch to open the refrigerator I hope someone gets me some help.

Errmm, Tom, didn't you admit that you couldn't get to the hi-fi because of your kitchen?!? We're here to help ;)

Very, amusing! However, that was because my future kitchen was at the time in boxes in the living room - not because my living room WAS the kitchen! I can proudly say that I have been listening to my Hi-Fi for over a week now as the kitchen is back where it belongs and should be absolutely complete this weekend. Then again I should probably knock on wood here as I have found that being done with a kitchen remodel is somewhat like being done with your audio system. Hmmm, I really ought replace that rickety stand with that nice rolling IKEA cart I saw last time there, and it would be better with a nice pendant lamp over the new table location...

[maffe]

Thx for the comments and input!
And yes I love this set up so much that I give it roses ;)
It´s an old early Akito1 on the LP12

Interesting that we prefer different and that we all agree on that un calibrated was worst!
When we tune the system we all (3 persons) preferred the separate feed and I still do.
Could be worth the effort to try different porcelain fuse, any suggestion Fredrik?
The direction of the cable would be little to much work to test now that its in place...

Trivia: Listen to #1 34s in, Kaos (our cat) sings along :P

[ThomasOK]

An interesting set of clips. On my first listen I hadn't read the text and played clip 1 & 2 and immediately thought "I didn't hear that flute at the beginning of track 1!" Then I read the text to see what clips I should be comparing and listened to them in a more sensible order (during which I also found out it wasn't a flute but a woodwind - maybe a clarinet). I definitely found that the adjusted amp setup was more musical and easy to follow than the pre adjustment version. When it came to the difference between 3 & 5 and 4 & 6 it became more interesting and difficult. I did prefer 3 & 4 over 5 & 6 - especially on the second track where I found her voice just annoying on & 6. Now seeing as I am a fan of King Crimson, Nine Inch Nails and Nirvana I can certainly get into music that is annoying or harsh, but only when it is supposed to be. In this case I didn't enjoy listening to it at all. On the first track I did like 3 better overall but there was a power and punch to 5 that I enjoyed as well.

I have to say that it is a quite attractive and simple looking system - pretty much the opposite of mine which is rather busy and industrial.

[maffe]

@ThomasOK: Thx!
I like it minimalistic and my wife can accept my craziness when it looks discreet and it help keeping the boxes to a not so big number :P
Even thou a Harmoni shelf would vastly improve performance.
Hope Fredrik will develop an Slipsik to integrate in the LP12 ;)
NIN, Ministry and Nirvana played a big part in my youth and still do!
Need to get my hands on "the downward spiral" on vinyl, since it came out in the dark ages of CD...

To refer to the PRE vs RAD first thread I have PRE first in this set up, just played better that way.

[Charlie1]

...my wife can accept my craziness when it looks discreet...

Well, you have certainly succeeded there! I can't think of anything you missed to improve it (and still have a nice sounding system).

[Raylogic]

Ok so I read through all this thread and yet still find myself (new to hi-fi) wondering what if anything I should have my electrician do for me.

In in the Uk, just off the City Centre, End terrace, upstairs bedroom starting refurb in Feb. This will also be my first entry in to having a (hopefully) reasonable sound system. My dealer is confident that he will have all available by my target date 23rd March

All used kit -

M DSM
M 6100
M 140 (upgrade base) ✓ reserved
Aktiv cards (probably not straight away)
K400 2.48m runs ✓ on route from Italy

My fuse board is in the kitchen below, best guess 5m from where my hifi will be.

Do I just go 4mm fused spur? Both DSM & 6100 hard wired direct or through a power conditioner thingy.

Help.

[Raylogic]

Ok so I have an electrician coming around next week.

My current (no pun intended) thinking is to request a radial circuit..

Fusebox is down stairs, planning to wall mount my hifi so distance to box 1 (lowest - thinking M6100) would be 6 metres, then up to box 2 (thinking M DSM) would be a further 25cm.

Some advice please.

Is that the best order?
Do I go with 4mm mains back to fusebox?
What about the wall sockets (non switched?)
Have I the right idea or waiting my time considering the level of my system...? Speakers are Majik 140.

I've seen this https://mcru.co.uk/product/belden-mains ... cba1185463

Thank you.

[Charlie1]

had the Sparky here this morning. He's installed a new 2-fuse distribution board. There is only one feed into the house, so it is now split between these two boards.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6gf8i53lxq59b ... 7.JPG?dl=0

He then moved the 4mm spur down to the new board. I made a clip of this, in the hope that it will finally out perform the old ring main. The 4mm spur has always been worse than the ring main in terms of engagement/tunefulness but better in terms of clarity. The cable was run off the drum from the socket to the fuse board so one theory is that it's not in the best direction - i.e. it should have been run from the fuse board out to the socket.

Next, he moved the existing ring main down to the new board, and I then recorded that too. There was no slack so he had to fit a connector block and short cable length in order to reach the new board. In the process of doing this, he also discovered that the garage power was joined onto this fuse - i.e. two feeds into the one fuse. He left the garage on the old fuse box and just moved the house ring main down to the new 2-way fuse box.

Existing ring main, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkg4hjhonghn8 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Existing ring main, clip #2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gki4abb11eag ... D.MOV?dl=0

4mm spur moved to new board, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/wz8ky7zpo260i ... D.MOV?dl=0
4mm spur moved to new board, clip #2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/29aptmg2wvngh ... D.MOV?dl=0

Ring main moved to new board, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/vdi88menou3xd ... D.MOV?dl=0
Ring main moved to new board, clip #2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6an6vbna3gq23 ... D.MOV?dl=0

I also took clips of the 4mm spur this morning, prior to the work being done. I didn't want to complicate things but can share the links for those too, if it would help.

[Raylogic]

Brilliant timing, I will share this with my electrician. I have those very same speakers :)

[lejonklou]

Existing ring main, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkg4hjhonghn8 ... D.MOV?dl=0
Existing ring main, clip #2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gki4abb11eag ... D.MOV?dl=0

4mm spur moved to new board, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/wz8ky7zpo260i ... D.MOV?dl=0
4mm spur moved to new board, clip #2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/29aptmg2wvngh ... D.MOV?dl=0

Ring main moved to new board, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/vdi88menou3xd ... D.MOV?dl=0
Ring main moved to new board, clip #2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6an6vbna3gq23 ... D.MOV?dl=0

In curious what you think about these yourself, Charlie. I found clip #2 easier to get into, so right now I judge by them:

Existing ring main is what I find most musical. It might be least impressive, but it captures the essence of the song best.

Ring main moved to new board is impressive and highlights individual sounds but somehow looses the whole. One thought that popped up when I was listening to the clip was "Naim", because it had a focus on every sound and brought attention to the parts rather than the whole and the progression.

4 mm spur was odd. It resembles 'ring moved to new board', but I'm not sure if it's actually better. It has a fat "thick cable" character which might be due to the 4 mm, but to me it sounds as if the new board is simply worse than the old fusebox.

EDIT: I changed my mind about the 4 mm spur after having listened a couple more times. At first I thought it was the worst, but it does have some qualities.

[Raylogic]

Oh dear I'm not sure where this leaves me!

[Charlie1]

In curious what you think about these yourself, Charlie.

I listened last night using the ring main in the new position. I kept noticing lyrics that I'd not properly understood before, so it's definitely cleaned up the sound.

Today, the old main seems to be more harmonious in the clips. That first piano note seems to ring more nicely and helps make it a more engaging listening experience. Do you think the speakers might need re-positioning for the new ring main, to get that back? I sense the new ring main is also a bit skittish - dizzy and disorientating. The new 4mm spur seems more 'normal' and grounded by comparison, but listening this morning it is also boring and un-engaging - not for me.

I have to live with it for a while anyway - not something I can undo myself :) I wonder if the new box needs a little time to burn in. If not, then I think I will have to get it put back as it was.

I am surprised by all this. Nothing mains related that I have tried so far has provided any musical benefit :( Maybe these products are all developed using a regular mains shared by lots of other equipment and that's how they sound most enjoyable. Maybe the fused spur still wouldn't be any good if the cable had been run in the other direction - perhaps it's nothing to do with that.

Here's the two 4mm fused spur clips, before and after. These are a more straight forward comparison cos the ring main lost the garage circuit when moved to the new fuse box. That garage circuit is constantly powering several appliances.

Before:
4mm spur as was, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/preview/IMG_593 ... e=personal
4mm spur as was, clip #2 https://www.dropbox.com/preview/IMG_593 ... e=personal

After (as posted previously):
4mm spur moved to new board, clip #1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/wz8ky7zpo260i ... D.MOV?dl=0
4mm spur moved to new board, clip #2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/29aptmg2wvngh ... D.MOV?dl=0

PS UK electrical regs have recently changed and new fuse boxes have to use a metal case.

[Raylogic]

Would it be fair to say then that it's all experimental, ie there is no general rule as to which wiring topology is best and whether adding a new fuseboard a plus or minus..

[lejonklou]

Unfortunately, it seems mains wiring is like most of the cables and wiring in HiFi: There are patterns rather than rules and lots of trial and error is needed.

I haven't invested much time in this area myself, as I live in an apartment. Quite a few customers have installed separate spurs and wiring and the results have been mixed. Some have tried to be systematic, but only on a few steps, then it becomes too difficult.

One thing I'd like to stress is that its absolutely worth the effort to find the best direction of the cable before installing it. You need to get it before the electrician arrives and screw on a plug and a socket on each end and listen to it used as an extension to the whole system. By making a recording with your phone, reversing the direction of the cable and recording again, you can easily determine which direction is best.

[Raylogic]

Ok thank you.

There are companies that sell dedicated hifi mains cable off the reel, presumably that is directional, but even if it is not I could do 2 runs, one each way then keep whichever sounds best I guess?

Hmmm I'm now in termoil.

[lejonklou]

Ok thank you.

There are companies that sell dedicated hifi mains cable off the reel, presumably that is directional, but even if it is not I could do 2 runs, one each way then keep whichever sounds best I guess?

Hmmm I'm now in termoil.

I feel your pain. Not a straightforward task, this one.

I would avoid anything sold as "HiFi mains cable" like the plague, as extremely few know what they're doing in this business, but they all want to make money.

[Charlie1]

I had another quick listen tonight. I was enjoying the new ring main on the first track. Not so sure about the second. I will record it again after the weekend to see if it's improved.

[Charlie1]

...I could do 2 runs, one each way then keep whichever sounds best I guess?

I think that's a good idea, unless you are able to confirm yourself, as Fredrik suggested, by trying the cable both ways prior to installation. However, I find it difficult to make decisions under pressure with the electrician waiting for me to make up your mind. If it were me then I'd get one installed in each direction. The Sparky will probably think you're crazy.

Also, try to make sure you are also left with a standard ring main socket to compare against. You never know, it might turn out to be better, like mine :(

[Raylogic]

I will be wall mounting a TV just above, so relocating the nearby existing ring mains to that position so that bit I have covered.

So much to think about, need to look at network cabling next...

[Charlie1]

Quick Update. The ring main on the new board is just weird. There is something unpleasant and distracting about it. It makes the music restless and agitated. One thing I forgot to mention is that the cable didn't reach the new board so he had to join a new piece on via a connector block. I did try re-tuning the speakers last night but couldn't find a better position.

The 4mm spur on the new board is a relief this afternoon. I'm not being distracted by anything and can enjoy my music. It's much easier to live with. It's probably a drop off in musicality to how I was before yesterday but it is OK for a week or so.

I will get the ring main put back, probably without the garage tagged on.

I feel all this effort and expense has been a complete failure.

[beck]

Quick Update. The ring main on the new board is just weird. There is something unpleasant and distracting about it. It makes the music restless and agitated. One thing I forgot to mention is that the cable didn't reach the new board so he had to join a new piece on via a connector block. I did try re-tuning the speakers last night but couldn't find a better position.

The 4mm spur on the new board is a relief this afternoon. I'm not being distracted by anything and can enjoy my music. It's much easier to live with. It's probably a drop off in musicality to how I was before yesterday but it is OK for a week or so.

I will get the ring main put back, probably without the garage tagged on.

I feel all this effort and expense has been a complete failure.

But sharing your clips here is helpful so thank you for doing so. Dare I say that you cannot know for sure that tagging the garage off will be an improvement. :-)