Optimal House Wiring

[Charlie1]

I'm going to live with the more vibrant 4mm for a while and then go back to the 2.5mm in a few weeks. Or I might just pretend the 2.5mm spur doesn't exist.

Just thought I'd feedback and say that 2.5mm 16a is better when judged using tune method. It is disappointing. I don't normally get hung up too much on clearer sound but I really like what the 4mm 32a does for my system. Perhaps I'll still use the 4mm from time to time when I have an audiophile itch than needs scratching. Why can't we have the best of both worlds!

[lejonklou]

Did you check the direction of them, Charlie?

That could be what's causing the dissonance in your emotions regarding 2.5 vs 4. One or both is in the wrong way.

[Charlie1]

Did you check the direction of them, Charlie?

That could be what's causing the dissonance in your emotions regarding 2.5 vs 4. One or both is in the wrong way.

That's a good point. It wasn't practical to check during the building works. If I'd have thought about it then I could have sourced the cables and checked beforehand.

However, now that I've switched back and been listening this morning, the musical message is coming through quite a lot more clearly so I'm less bothered than I was last night. Weird how that even though it's less sonically clear, I'm better able to identify the lyrics being sung. You'd think it would be the other way around. Couple of times already I've realised I had previously misunderstood a lyric.

[Spannko]

This is a great finding charlie1. I don't think I'm exaggerating by thinking it could be one of the most significant advancements in system setup knowledge for some time. It's like a Dynamik for a Dynamik, fundamentally improving the performance of a system.

You've taken one of the HiFi Sacred Cows to the slaughterhouse, i.e. The greater the current carrying capacity of the power cables, and the greater the number of feeds, the better the sound. TuneDemmers have felt that single power line topologies have been preferable for some time, but there's usually an emphasis on higher current carrying capacity. To be curious and go in the opposite direction was a stroke of genius.

[Charlie1]

Thanks Spannko although I wasn't quite as careful as I could have been. As Fredrik alluded to, there is at least one scenario where the 4mm could be superior - i.e. If it turns out that cable direction is more musically important than cable diameter AND the 2.5mm cable is in the correct direction AND the 4mm isn't. Sorry to dampen your enthusiasm.

I suppose there could be other factors too, such as the order in which the spurs are connected in the main fuse box. Perhaps that's even more important than either cable direction or diameter. I'm afraid this will take a level of diligence that I don't have the enthusiasm to take on. Maybe one day a member will get to the bottom of it rather like Fredrik has with speaker cable lengths. It all takes motivation, time and the means.

[lejonklou]

I suppose there could be other factors too, such as the order in which the spurs are connected in the main fuse box. Perhaps that's even more important than either cable direction or diameter.

No, that is not my experience. As a general rule, the further away from the system, the less important it is.

[u252agz]

Re Daisy chaining Power strips.

The only way I can do this is if the second power strip cable has to run together ( 15 cm distance ) with Silver interconnects for a 5 meters ( in a steel channel under the floor) - is this a bad idea ?

Would it be preferrable to keep the power strip cable completely away from all interconnect cables ( there will also be a Black interconnect in the same channel).

If that is the case, daisy chaining is not an option for me and the power amps will have to take the power supply from a different socket/ring from the source /preamp.

Thanks for any advice.

[donuk]

Hi u,
I cannot answer you questions directly.
But I offer a couple of suggestions:
My instinct tells me not to place interconnect cables in a screened conduit under the floor. My experience is that things sound best when cables are hanging as freely as possible.
Also I would be reluctant to plug amp and preamp in different Spurs or sockets. There is a danger of setting up earth loops.
As with everything let you ears judge before doing anything permanent.

Hope this helps,
Donuk, sunny downtown York.

[lejonklou]

Good instincts Don!

Running unbalanced interconnects together with mains cable is not ideal. In general, they should be kept a bit apart, but usually don't benefit from being very far apart.

Regarding powering the amps from a far away socket versus running mains next to signal, it will probably require a proper test to know which is the best. There are so many variables in this.

[u252agz]

Thanks for that,

I will test with surface run cables and report back.

I recall some improvement in daisy chaining the power strip with the tundras and some with moving the above to a dedicated spur two days ago.

Lets see what happens running the power strip cable close ( and varying differences) from Long Linn Blacks.

Will have to wait for a rainy sunday when the family are away!

[Charlie1]

So, both my 2.5mm and 4mm fused spurs were a disappointment, and continue to be despite trying them again from time to time. They are using identical 'new' sockets to the normal ring main btw, so no difference there.

I'm wondering if there could be a hierarchy within the fuse board. Perhaps it's worth getting the sparky back to change the order around. The photo below shows the overall layout with two large grey cables feeding the main board:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yllyliiwm0cgn ... s.jpg?dl=0

The close-up below shows the order that circuits break off the two supplies. The red box circles the existing pair of fuses and the blue is where it 'might' be possible to relocate them to:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wmoktipuigrbu ... p.jpg?dl=0

Of course, it could just be the cable direction as speculated by Fredrik ages ago, but maybe not. What do folks think? Waste or more money or worth a shot?

EDIT: I just checked and the HiFi is connected to the second left-most fuse (nr 2). It shares this with all sorts of junk, like the microwave, fridge, TVs, Ethernet-over-mains units, BT vision box, Broadband router, electric garage doors, pretty much everything excluding the cooker, and it still sounds better than the fused spurs! :(

[Spannko]

So, both my 2.5mm and 4mm fused spurs were a disappointment, and continue to be despite trying them again from time to time. They are using identical 'new' sockets to the normal ring main btw, so no difference there.

I'm wondering if there could be a hierarchy within the fuse board. Perhaps it's worth getting the sparky back to change the order around. The photo below shows the overall layout with two large grey cables feeding the main board:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yllyliiwm0cgn ... s.jpg?dl=0

The close-up below shows the order that circuits break off the two supplies. The red box circles the existing pair of fuses and the blue is where it 'might' be possible to relocate them to:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wmoktipuigrbu ... p.jpg?dl=0

Of course, it could just be the cable direction as speculated by Fredrik ages ago, but maybe not. What do folks think? Waste or more money or worth a shot?

EDIT: I just checked and the HiFi is connected to the second left-most fuse (nr 2). It shares this with all sorts of junk, like the microwave, fridge, TVs, Ethernet-over-mains units, BT vision box, Broadband router, electric garage doors, pretty much everything excluding the cooker, and it still sounds better than the fused spurs! :(

That's a really interesting statement charlie1! It's quite amazing that after nearly 35 years after I first heard that a system could be improved by "upgrading" the mains, there's still no definitive mains topology.

In my last house I ended up with a single 4mm2 flex feeding the system from a separate fuse box. However in my new house I'm feeding the system off one of the ring mains off the main distribution unit and it sounds better. I can't deduce too much from this at the moment given that my last room was almost cubic and my new room satisfies many of the generally agreed criteria for a good sounding room. Over the following months I plan to undergo a systematic mains supply experiment, looking at ring vs radial, 2.5 vs 4 vs 6mm2 and twin and earth vs flex. Hopefully, I'll come up with some conclusions!

[tokenbrit]

It will be interesting to read whether a ring circuit has better musical properties than a dedicated spur / radial circuit, in the United Kingdom at least. I believe they tend to wire houses with a radial topology here in the US, so it's just a matter of shared or dedicated .. and gauge ... and voltage! :)
Not sure if panels here can be wired in a ring circuit topology.

[Charlie1]

That's a really interesting statement charlie1! It's quite amazing that after nearly 35 years after I first heard that a system could be improved by "upgrading" the mains, there's still no definitive mains topology.

Yes, there doesn't seem to have been much done. I think the Naimies are quite on top of this sort of thing but no one seems to have looked from a tunedem perspective - not that I've seen anyway.

In my last house I ended up with a single 4mm2 flex feeding the system from a separate fuse box. However in my new house I'm feeding the system off one of the ring mains off the main distribution unit and it sounds better. I can't deduce too much from this at the moment given that my last room was almost cubic and my new room satisfies many of the generally agreed criteria for a good sounding room. Over the following months I plan to undergo a systematic mains supply experiment, looking at ring vs radial, 2.5 vs 4 vs 6mm2 and twin and earth vs flex. Hopefully, I'll come up with some conclusions!

Interesting. Please let us know how you get on.

Our sparky said he needs to pop back and familiarise himself with it all. I'm proposing he installs a new (smaller) distribution board just for the spurs. I suspect he might need to include one other circuit with the spurs, because I doubt he'll be able to consolidate everything else into the other distribution board / feed. I'm also hoping we can do some listening test whilst switching around the two feeds from the main supply, but don't know if that's possible.

It will be interesting to read whether a ring circuit has better musical properties than a dedicated spur / radial circuit, in the United Kingdom at least. I believe they tend to wire houses with a radial topology here in the US, so it's just a matter of shared or dedicated .. and gauge ... and voltage! :)
Not sure if panels here can be wired in a ring circuit topology.

I'm not sure but think it's the same here in the UK - i.e. they are not really spurs, but rings with nothing else on them. However, the common terminology amongst UK HiFi folks is to call them spurs.

[Spannko]

Just to clarify, so we're talking about the same thing. A radial starts at the consumer unit (distribution board) and can feed one or more sockets. A spur is like a radial, but taken off a ring. A ring starts at the consumer unit and returns to the same point in the consumer unit.

[Charlie1]

Just to clarify, so we're talking about the same thing. A radial starts at the consumer unit (distribution board) and can feed one or more sockets. A spur is like a radial, but taken off a ring. A ring starts at the consumer unit and returns to the same point in the consumer unit.

Yes, the HiFi circuits only link back to the consumer unit - they were not spurred off an existing ring. I think this is more likely called a 'fused spur' in the UK, rather than just a 'spur', as I called it. But again, I think this is just the hiFi community, UK electricians may call it something else, such as a radial.

[tokenbrit]

Just to clarify, so we're talking about the same thing. A radial starts at the consumer unit (distribution board) and can feed one or more sockets. A spur is like a radial, but taken off a ring. A ring starts at the consumer unit and returns to the same point in the consumer unit.

Yes, your clarification is what I meant by dedicated spur, which I should have called a radial, dedicated to hi-fi electronics & network components.
I did not mean a spur from a ring circuit - apologies if my loose terminology caused any confusion.

All on the same page - please carry on :)

[Tendaberry]

You could of course go one step further and have your own power pole installed:
https://thevinylfactory.com/news/japane ... lity-pole/

[Charlie1]

That is exactly what we need. Thank you for this Tendaberry. I'll get right on it. Should I check with my wife first, cos not sure if front or back garden is best?

[maffe]

I had all electrics in our apartment rewired some time ago. Just for fun I mentioned to the electrician that a separate feed with a porcelain fuse that was not connected to the ground fault circuit interrupter most likely would improve the music experience. He found that fun and did just that for me :)
So now my HiFi have that, don´t share with anything else :)

[ThomasOK]

You could of course go one step further and have your own power pole installed:
https://thevinylfactory.com/news/japane ... lity-pole/

If you watch the video the one who is really a bit scary is the guy at the end with the 250 square foot apartment he rents so he can spend all his money on the Hi-Fi. If I ever have to move my couch to open the refrigerator I hope someone gets me some help.

[tokenbrit]

You could of course go one step further and have your own power pole installed:
https://thevinylfactory.com/news/japane ... lity-pole/

If you watch the video the one who is really a bit scary is the guy at the end with the 250 square foot apartment he rents so he can spend all his money on the Hi-Fi. If I ever have to move my couch to open the refrigerator I hope someone gets me some help.

Errmm, Tom, didn't you admit that you couldn't get to the hi-fi because of your kitchen?!? We're here to help ;)

[lejonklou]

I had all electrics in our apartment rewired some time ago. Just for fun I mentioned to the electrician that a separate feed with a porcelain fuse that was not connected to the ground fault circuit interrupter most likely would improve the music experience. He found that fun and did just that for me :)
So now my HiFi have that, don´t share with anything else :)

Fantastic maffe! That's the attitude we're looking for.

How does it sound compared to the regular mains?

[maffe]

Fantastic maffe! That's the attitude we're looking for.

How does it sound compared to the regular mains?

Guess I can ( and have to) make a clip ;)
Pretty easy to change between the separate feed and the other.

[maffe]

Posting 6 clips, two different artist 3 different settings.
First four with the dedicated. Difference is tundras not adjusted (#1&2), was 2mV off.
Last two connected to rest of the apartments electrics. I had all thats usually on in the apartment on at all clips.

#1
https://maffe.smugmug.com/Film/n-H2MXxp/i-jMHWC8f/A
#2
https://maffe.smugmug.com/Film/n-H2MXxp/i-S6q4WmV/A

#3
https://maffe.smugmug.com/Film/n-H2MXxp/i-B2kgrnz/A
#4
https://maffe.smugmug.com/Film/n-H2MXxp/i-nNGbc9B/A

#5
https://maffe.smugmug.com/Film/n-H2MXxp/i-3THwJbp/A
#6
https://maffe.smugmug.com/Film/n-H2MXxp/i-CDM5ZHF/A

Hope this works!