The sound of LP12 plinths?

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SaltyDog
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Post by SaltyDog »

Glad to hear about the ATCs. I didn't research before ordering and Fredrick's post made me :oops: . Now I can :)
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lejonklou
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Post by lejonklou »

Interesting info about the ban on export of raw Rosewood, Thomas. At the time I was told by the Linn rep that the decision to drop Rosewood was based on ecological sustainability issues. But you may very well be right that it was in fact economical politics behind it...

It's always difficult to draw the line in issues such as this. The RoHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substances) directive that banned the use of lead in the electronics industry was one of those decision that I felt was probably right, but might lead to a loss of performance for us HiFi fanatics. Happily I think this has probably not been the case. I've made a few comparisons with older leaded IC's, transistors, resistors and fuses and in all of those cases, the new unleaded replacements have actually performed a little better.

Solder wire has been a bit difficult, though. I have a favourite 60/40 tin/lead wire, that is now only allowed for repair work, that I have always found performing significantly better than everything else. But after having evaluated the sound quality of many different unleaded solder wires, I think I've finally managed to find one that outperforms it. I've been using it for a while in my products, but recently decided to make a bunch of test cables (around 30, soldered with different techniques and with different temperatures) just to find out whether it's actually the best so far. This summer they've aged enough for me to draw that final conclusion. Madness, I agree, but I just have to know. And the test might tell me that I need to adjust the soldering temperature a notch or two.

Sorry for going off topic, this was really about those fabulous plinths... :oops:
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Great information Thomas, thanks 8). Learning about audio is non-stop, but definitely enjoyable :!:
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Post by ThomasOK »

Interesting that you brought up RoHS. It is another good example of bureaucratic cowtowing to industry that is designed to make the government look good while not really doing much to help the environment. It is instructive to note that RoHS does not require the removal of lead from car batteries. Seeing as the lead leakage from a single car battery into a landfill is probably more that what would come from Linn's output for an entire year, you can see that the rule really doesn't go after the major source of the problem - just the convenient one. (I may be exaggerating a bit here but not by much!)

The ruling banning banana jacks on electronics which saddled us with BFAs for a while is another such example. Since it was OK to still have them on speakers (as they didn't contain active electronics) the whole safety problem they were supposed to eliminate was left pretty much untouched. Eventually everyone figured out that you could meet the letter of the law by using five-way binding posts and sticking a removable plastic plug in the banana part. So the only real effect of the law is to increase sales of five-way binding posts (at the cost of banana only jacks that many felt were superior) and to create a new business for little plastic plugs, most of which end up in landfills!

I imagine from this some may get the notion that I am a card-carrying conservative. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was a Hippie and anti-war activist in my youth and I believe that industry, left to its own devices, would make the planet uninhabitable in relatively short order. But I'm not much for legislation that talks ecology while leaving big holes for the worst offenders to slip through.
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Tony Tune-age
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:I believe that industry, left to its own devices, would make the planet uninhabitable in relatively short order.
There's plenty of evidence world wide which supports that therory... :!:
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Post by Chris H »

Yes... Time after time it has been seen that industry is driven by 'the bottom line' and would indeed leave the world uninhabitable if left to it's own devices....


Most of the Cocobolo I use is farmed.... Which does not necessarily mean that it comes without a cost. All of life, and every transmutation of energy exacts a 'cost'... We all have a footprint..

The largest threats to the World's rainforests today are deforestation caused by 1- Biofuels demand, namely Palm oil and soybean for Biodiesel. Burning Biodiesel or Ethanol in your auto is NOT doing the planet any good. True economics is completely disregarded by the industry and it's proponents. Social and socio-economic costs of these crops in South America, Indonesia, and Asia, are huge. Again, the exploitation of the general population (poor) for the enrichment of the few. And 2- deforestation for heating/ cooking fuel. This is mainly in Africa and parts of Asia, but is quite significant in terms of total deforestation. Also a decent portion of deforestation due to cattle ranching, and other resource extraction/ industrial uses, and illegal logging.

I am highly aware of where wood comes from, and what it costs... I have flown over South America and seen the deforestation, as well as walked through the forests where Cherry, Walnut, Hickory, Oak, Beech, Maple, Sassafrass, and many other trees grow. In my opinion, when considering the intricate web of 'impactfulness' and causality, it can sometimes be difficult to see the whole picture. The fact is, that the tracts of land where the domestic tree species live are highly regulated. The rainforests are a current 'frontier' for 'low cost' resource extraction due to the vast expanses of untouched land inhabited by 'voiceless' people, perfect for industry. A huge percentage of the trees cut, are simply piled and burned. The rainforests are seeing a huge threat right now. This is serious, but use caution in deciding which forms of resource extraction are more impactful than others. We are good at recognizing impact which 'strikes home', but not so good at recognizing less tangeable impacts such as water, soil, or social impact.

Try googling for images of Palm oil production in Indonesia. MASSIVE clearcutting and monocrop replanting of oil palm with an equally huge and unspoken social and environmental cost. Growing soybeans in South America requires lots of pesticides and herbicides ( the application of these is NOT a high paying job, quite toxic, and oops... the village got sprayed..) If some would view the current trend of burning fossil fuels as 'driving fast towards a brick wall', then the current form of biofuels produced by modern agriculture (palm oil and soy biodiesel, corn ethanol, and even sugar cane ethanol) can be looked at as 'shifting into the next gear and flooring it....'

It is true that many species of trees have been pushed into scarcity or extinction because of woods usefulness to humanity in one form or another.

A pattern which can be found throughout the Universe, Macro and Micro, is that of Birth-Growth-Expansive Growth-Decline-Death. It is still uncertain how this pattern will play into humanity....


ANyway... back to record players...
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Chris H wrote:Yes... Time after time it has been seen that industry is driven by 'the bottom line' and would indeed leave the world uninhabitable if left to it's own devices....


All of life, and every transmutation of energy exacts a 'cost'... We all have a footprint..

I am highly aware of where wood comes from, and what it costs... I have flown over South America and seen the deforestation, as well as walked through the forests where Cherry, Walnut, Hickory, Oak, Beech, Maple, Sassafrass, and many other trees grow. In my opinion, when considering the intricate web of 'impactfulness' and causality, it can sometimes be difficult to see the whole picture. The fact is, that the tracts of land where the domestic tree species live are highly regulated. The rainforests are a current 'frontier' for 'low cost' resource extraction due to the vast expanses of untouched land inhabited by 'voiceless' people, perfect for industry. A huge percentage of the trees cut, are simply piled and burned. The rainforests are seeing a huge threat right now. This is serious, but use caution in deciding which forms of resource extraction are more impactful than others. We are good at recognizing impact which 'strikes home', but not so good at recognizing less tangeable impacts such as water, soil, or social impact.

Try googling for images of Palm oil production in Indonesia. MASSIVE clearcutting and monocrop replanting of oil palm with an equally huge and unspoken social and environmental cost. Growing soybeans in South America requires lots of pesticides and herbicides ( the application of these is NOT a high paying job, quite toxic, and oops... the village got sprayed..)

It is true that many species of trees have been pushed into scarcity or extinction because of woods usefulness to humanity in one form or another.

A pattern which can be found throughout the Universe, Macro and Micro, is that of Birth-Growth-Expansive Growth-Decline-Death. It is still uncertain how this pattern will play into humanity....
Many valid points Chris... :!:
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Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for your post, Chris!

You seem very conscious of the massive problems and I really appreciate your attempt to clarify the origin of the woods. This brought me one step closer to a plinth of yours, I'm really tempted by the Cocobolo...

I've had a gradual awakening to various sustainability issues during the last years. Parts of it due to regulations that affect me as a manufacturer, such as being responsible for the recycling of goods that I make. As I know that every product I've ever made is still in use and will likely be for many years to come (most of them are even registered with the owner's name and address, as the 3 year warranty is transferrable), those laws can appear unreasonably harsh.

But when reading that, by one industry estimate, 99 per cent of the original materials used in the production of goods made in the United States are thrown away within six weeks of sale(!!), I understand very clearly the reason behind trying to make the manufacturers more responsible for the entire life cycle of the products.

And when reading discussions about how to purposely limit the lifetime of products (cell phones for instance), balancing between customer satisfaction (they need to function long enough for you to keep trusting the brand) and creating the need for a new purchase, I get really angry.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:
Tony Tune-age wrote:By the way Thomas, when dusting the plinths (which are made by Chris) is it advisable to use wood polish :?:
I'll have to check with Chris to find out his recommendations on this.
Thomas, have you been able to find out the recommendations from Chris regarding wood polish on his plinths :?:
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Post by Chris H »

Tony, send me an e-mail...
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Chris H wrote:Tony, send me an e-mail...
Will do Chris... :!:
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fluted plinths

Post by skiffle0 »

Hi,

very impressed with the amount of work carried out in these comparisons Thomas, and a fascinating read - thanks.

I have a black ash plinth, but never really thought of it as sounding any different to the other Linn made plinths. I chose it because I was never that keen on the fluted plinths, and the black ash was the only smooth finish available at the time.
Which brings me to my question; do you think it possible that fluting has an effect on the sound? or when you compare Linn with replacement plinths have you only compared "smooth/flat" style?

regards, Guy.
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Re: fluted plinths

Post by ThomasOK »

skiffle0 wrote:Hi,

very impressed with the amount of work carried out in these comparisons Thomas, and a fascinating read - thanks.

I have a black ash plinth, but never really thought of it as sounding any different to the other Linn made plinths. I chose it because I was never that keen on the fluted plinths, and the black ash was the only smooth finish available at the time.
Which brings me to my question; do you think it possible that fluting has an effect on the sound? or when you compare Linn with replacement plinths have you only compared "smooth/flat" style?

regards, Guy.
Welcome to the forum, Guy.

I can't say with certainty that there would be no difference in sound from the fluting of the plinth as I have never compared fluted vs. smooth plinths of the same wood. Having said that I sincerely doubt it would make any but the slightest difference - likely a difference that would be less than that caused by variations in the same type of wood from board to board. You see wood is a natural material and no two boards are the same. In using a solid you find differences in grain, density, hardness, etc. caused by where the wood was grown, the weather conditions, how long the tree lived and other factors as well as what part of the tree you are using. These differences will make differences in the tone the wood has when assembled into a plinth. While I have found so far that all plinths of a species of wood have a similar tone, there are small variations from plinth to plinth. In my experience so far they haven't been big enough to change a preference for a species of wood but I could imagine the possibility of a really good piece of Cocobolo outperforming a lesser piece of Movingui, for example.

So my feeling is the fluting, which removes some wood but does not substantially alter the resonant quality or tone of the wood, is unlikely to make much of a difference. I have replaced a number of fluted plinths with newer plinths (mostly Woodsong custom plinths but some with newer Linn plinths) and have found musical improvement is the rule. But this is almost assuredly due to the new plinth being a better wood and/or a better construction than the stock plinth it replaced.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Tony Tune-age wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:
Tony Tune-age wrote:By the way Thomas, when dusting the plinths (which are made by Chris) is it advisable to use wood polish :?:
I'll have to check with Chris to find out his recommendations on this.
Thomas, have you been able to find out the recommendations from Chris regarding wood polish on his plinths :?:
I did get Chris to comment on this briefly the other day. For the most part he just recommends cleaning the plinth with a clean, soft cloth. On most of his plinths it is OK to use lemon oil on it but it normally shouldn't be necessary so I'd say go sparingly with it. But on some of his plinths he uses a wax instead (the Cocobolo I just sold is one of these). Lemon oil should never be used on one of these as it can damage the wax finish. Chris is considering including a small tin of wax (he custom mixes it) with these plinths in the future.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote:
Tony Tune-age wrote:
ThomasOK wrote: I'll have to check with Chris to find out his recommendations on this.
Thomas, have you been able to find out the recommendations from Chris regarding wood polish on his plinths :?:
I did get Chris to comment on this briefly the other day. For the most part he just recommends cleaning the plinth with a clean, soft cloth. On most of his plinths it is OK to use lemon oil on it but it normally shouldn't be necessary so I'd say go sparingly with it. But on some of his plinths he uses a wax instead (the Cocobolo I just sold is one of these). Lemon oil should never be used on one of these as it can damage the wax finish. Chris is considering including a small tin of wax (he custom mixes it) with these plinths in the future.
Thanks for the information Thomas 8) . I was able to communicate with Chris regarding this subject matter, and he said essentially the same as you, which is good 8) . I still think my plinth is awsome, and I'm glad to have it on my Sondek :!:
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Post by yours in music »

Hi Tony,
Would be happy to see a picture ofyour movingui plinth
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

yours in music wrote:Hi Tony,
Would be happy to see a picture ofyour movingui plinth
Actually, once I know how to post pictures on this forum...I'll post my plinth picture :roll: .
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Post by lejonklou »

You need to store the picture elsewhere. Then read this:

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 22&start=4
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

lejonklou wrote:You need to store the picture elsewhere. Then read this:

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 22&start=4
Some day I will figure this out... 8)
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Re: Plinth

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Tony Tune-age wrote:Just replaced my Afromosia plinth with a Movingui plinth, made by Chris. It is a very well made product, and the finish is essentially perfect.

While it can be difficult to describe how a product sounds, the first area of sonic improvement was voices. Basically voices are more human sounding and lyrics are much easier to understand.

Musical instruments sound better as well, especially with complex recordings. It's even easier to identify the types of instruments being used, no matter how complex the arrangement.

I have spent more money on audio upgrades that didn't provide near the improvement of this new plinth.
Image

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Post by Tony Tune-age »

yours in music wrote:Hi Tony,
Would be happy to see a picture ofyour movingui plinth
Image

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Post by Charlie1 »

Hi Tom. Are you able to quantify the plinth upgrade from standard Linn to a Curly Maple or Movingui?

Is it Tramplin2 territory or just new outer platter league? They are quite expensive, so I am trying to gauge their worth.

I ask cos Peter has my deck for service and I think he has some CH plinths. I'm not that keen based on looks and so they need to be a substantial boost for me to consider it seriously.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Here's a post from this particular thread regarding the sound of Woodsong plinths. Not sure if this helps with your question Charlie1.
ThomasOK wrote:I recently received an email from a good customer who purchased one of the custom plinths from me. He gave me permission to post his comments here.

"My turntable is now set-up and back in operation. As you stated, there is an improvement in sound, which is immediately noticeable. In my opinion, the improvements are significant. And they might be “similar” to the improvements achieved from the Radikal and Keel. In any case, replacing the Linn stock plinth with a Movingui plinth should be one of the first improvements made to the Sondek – especially considering the cost. Dollar for dollar, it “might have” gained the most sonic improvement for the money spent.

The quality of workmanship is top notch, and it’s a very good looking product! I do appreciate your recommendation on this plinth and feel very happy making the change."

There is good and bad news in regards to this. The bad news is that Chris has no more Movingui as his recent lumber buying trip found the distributor out of Movingui. It appears that the slow economy has drastically reduced the supply of a number exotic hardwoods. The good news is that several other plinths from Chris have been close to the Movingui musically and all have been a substantial upgrade over any of the stock Linn plinths.

As Chris gets more of his new batch of plinths out I hope to audition at least a couple more woods and will report my findings when I do.
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Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Tony - a good find!

However, I now wonder if the plinth was the only change or if it was fitted as part of a service too.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Charlie1 wrote:Thanks Tony - a good find!

However, I now wonder if the plinth was the only change or if it was fitted as part of a service too.
At the time my plinth was fitted, the price did include labor.
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