Old Linn Kan I, can they be improved?

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Linnofil
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Old Linn Kan I, can they be improved?

Post by Linnofil »

I have just bought a pair of late Linn Kan I's. Nostalgia! One of the treble units is a bit old. The other speaker has a new treble unit and that speaker now sound different/better. The question is, should I replace the old remaining treble unit, and get a fresh sounding pair of Kan I's? Is there an improvement to be made by replacing both tweeters with Ninka units? If so, what should be done with the filters? Is this at all possible?

Maybe the best idea is to have them in their original configuration and preserve the classic Kan sound? What would you recommend? The old treble unit cost about the same as two new Ninka units.

Whatever I do I will have to remove the front of the remaining Kan. What is the best/safest procedure for this? According to the seller Fredrik removed the other one! Is it recommended to glue them back on or is there a better option?

I have not yet listned to them or seen them. What is your opinon on the performance of a pair of "fresh" Kan I's? Can they ever be as good as a pair of Uniks? Anyway, a lot of “fun” for very little money!
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Post by poppop »

Hi Linnofil,

I cant comment on Kans at all as Ive never heard them! I do believe they are difficult to open up, but have seen notes on the Pink Fish forum.

If you wanted to keep the parts original the early Kan tweeter is part No: 2E - 140/H £64.79 each! Having just bought a pair of "Ninka" or universal Linn tweeters for Keltiks they are part no: 38/2 and cost £32.77 each!

I certainly like to at least have "genuine" Linn parts( yes, I know others maybe cheaper and better!) which is why I changed the treble and the mid(on order) as both were non Linn.

Good luck with the renovation!

Steve.
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Post by ThomasOK »

You can definitely put the new Ninka/Espek tweeter in the original Kans. Some will say it is a notable improvement, others will say that you are ruining a classic. I feel that putting in the newer tweeter is a definite improvement. I have installed them in my own Isobariks and SARAs, which serve as fronts and rears in my home theater, and I am quite pleased with the results. I have also updated the tweeters for customers on Keltiks, Kabers, Keilidhs, Tukans, 5120s, 5140s and Isobariks and all have been happy with the improvement the most frequent comment being "why didn't you tell me about these sooner?"

The Kan is indeed difficult to get into because of the glued on grills. The original recommended repair procedure from Linn was to cut away the grill fabric and pry out the frame from the inside - usually breaking it - and then to put on a new pair of grills. Since new grills are no longer available from Linn this is more difficult. If you are very careful you can pry the old grills off intact but it is easy to damage the cabinet while doing so. The last time I worked on a pair of Kans they had grills that weren't original anyway (and which looked pretty bad). I just destroyed the replacement grills and made new replacements out of grill cloth and some masonite cut to size. This might end up being the way you have to go.

I wouldn't worry too much about the crossover. The new tweeter is about .75dB less efficient than the older one so Linn has you turn up Aktiv crossovers one notch (.5 to 1dB depending on the crossover) to compensate. On passive speakers I have found the slight reduction in treble to be hardly noticeable and the performance improvement from the new tweeter more than compensates for it. Good luck.
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Post by lejonklou »

I have some mixed feelings about the tweeter change. Having done it in Kan II's only, I can tell you they do sound rather good afterwards. What they loose, however, is IMHO a sense of balance between the drive units. The mid/bass is kind of harsh sounding and the old tweeter was too. With the neodymium tweeter, the top gets very sweet and pure and somehow I feel this alters the character of the speaker in a funny way. It's not bad... but different. Hard to describe.

I raised the tweeter level in the passive filter by about 0.4 dB with one extra parallel resistor (compared several values) and I think it was worth the effort.

Considering that you have one good and one bad tweeter, I don't think you have many options. The originals are not available from any source that I know of - they may still be in Linns pricelist but I think I got the very last they had in stock a couple of years back.

One idea is that you pick the worst sounding of your two Kans and replace the tweeter in that with the new model. Adjust the filter if you want to (I can give you the values I used) and when you are done, you can compare the two speakers with eachother. If the neodymium wins, you fix the other one as well. I'd be interested in the results, please tell us if you go down this route.

Do not cut away the fabric from the grilles! I have never found that to be necessary. Just grab the fabric in the middle on each side and slowly pull towards you. Gradually increase the force until the grille pops off from the baffle. The trick is not to be in a hurry, but give the glue/silicon time to break and loose its grip. Only once have I had a crack in the wooden part of the grille with this method and not once have I had to replace the fabric, which you stretch out to cover any marks or holes before glueing the grilles back on.

If my memory serves me right, I think the Kans sounded better with the fronts on, but more importantly they look great that way - one of the best looking speakers ever made in my opinion. And black was my favourite colour - I used to have a pair that I named Hugin and Munin.
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Post by Linnofil »

Thanks for all your inside information and tips. It looks like I have to go for the newer tweeters. I talked to an owner of Kan II's a couple of days ago at my dealers "Lejonklou musical evening". He had compared his renovated Kan II's (new tweeters, renovated woofers) with Unik (standing on Kan stands) and the Kan's where absolutely trashed by the Uniks. (Unik has the new tweeter.) He wasn't to happy with that as he like the Kan's appearance and special sound. I will see if I order the tweeters one at a time or do both at the same time. I will report on the status of the grille after taking it off!

Lejonklou talked about capacitors in the crossover that could be getting old and may need replacement. Has anyone heard if this is necessary? (We talked about if Kan really was that bad in the 80'ies, when we at that time thought they where great.)
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:Just grab the fabric in the middle on each side and slowly pull towards you. Gradually increase the force until the grille pops off from the baffle. The trick is not to be in a hurry, but give the glue/silicon time to break and loose its grip.
Linnofil wrote:I will report on the status of the grille after taking it off!
Well, thanks to the Lejonklou procedure/method above, removing the remaining grille was a complete success! The advice is greatly appreciated! My fingers got a bit numb after a couple of minutes, but I kept doing it over and over again. Slowly it started to come off! Removing the tweeter was the next problem, but since I was not going to use it any more, that was a smaller problem. I tried to abuse the tweeter more than the baffle and I think it went well. Only a very small mark, much less than on the other speaker, where the work was carried out by a Linn dealer.

When removing the other tweeter, should I remove it by pressing it out from the inside? I think I have to remove the woofer anyway to reach the filter. Correct, or? It would keep the new (and rare, of value?) tweeter intact. My plan is to replace both tweeters and do the change to the crossover. If I can, I will test the "good old speaker" against the "new tweeter speaker" before converting them both. Depends on where I do the work.

As mentioned above, capacitors in the crossover, could they be getting old and need replacement? Has anyone heard if this is necessary? Was Kan really this "bad" in the 80'ies, when we at that time thought they where great? Today Kan's (even Kan II) are completely trashed by Unik's and Unik is by most people considered (wrongly) to be a cheapy surround box. (A couple of weeks ago I beat a pair of Komri's with my Unik's :mrgreen: On tunedem, with a better source.)

Is there anything else I should do or think about, while I have my Kan's opened up? Is just about any silicone/polyurethan glue good for the refitting of tweeter/woofer? Should I glue the corners inside the Kans to "reseal" them? Brace the cabinet? (I have some "spare" volume, since the tweeter is smaller.) I would like to do everything I can to make them as good (tunewise) as possible. It's still just a small fun project and I really don't know where I will use them, yet. :D
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Post by lejonklou »

Sorry for the late reply, Linnofil.
Linnofil wrote:When removing the other tweeter, should I remove it by pressing it out from the inside?
I have never tried that, but it sounds like a good idea. You do need to remove the bass unit to get the filter out, the tweeter hole is too small for that. If that tweeter is an original and in good shape, it certainly has value as they are difficult to find.
capacitors in the crossover, could they be getting old and need replacement?
I think it depends on what filter model it is you have in there. There were many iterations of the Kan filter. Post a picture of it so that we can help!
Is just about any silicone/polyurethan glue good for the refitting of tweeter/woofer? Should I glue the corners inside the Kans to "reseal" them? Brace the cabinet?
Not sure about the glue, I have used silicone. It probably makes a difference, but how does one compare? :(

Reseal? Are they for some reason leaky? Kan's should be absolutely air tight. I think it's quite difficult to improve them by bracing the cabinet, as you push the resonant frequencies higher up where they might do more harm. Also, the inside of the cabinet is most likely covered with a spongy fiber board that you might have to cut through to allow bracing.

The spare volume is an interesting question. When Ku-Stone was fitted to Kan II's, they lost a bit of internal volume and the bass changed due to this. As far as I know, nothing was done to compensate this loss of volume (but on the other hand volume was added at an earlier stage due to the tweeter position being moved forward), so on those that extra volume due to the tiny neodymium tweeter can be a bonus. On the original Kan's, the volume was carefully specified and I suspect you'll get a slight degradation if the volume increases. As it's hard to compare, I think I'd want to add something (like a bit of Ku-stone glued to the back wall? :D ), to keep the volume the same.

Good luck and keep us posted!
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:If that tweeter is an original and in good shape, it certainly has value as they are difficult to find.
Yepp, original and practically brand new! Will be removed gently. Any buyers out there? Send me a pm! :D
lejonklou wrote:
capacitors in the crossover, could they be getting old and need replacement?
I think it depends on what filter model it is you have in there. There were many iterations of the Kan filter. Post a picture of it so that we can help!
OK, I will try and do that.
lejonklou wrote:Reseal? Are they for some reason leaky? Kan's should be absolutely air tight.
In the 80’ies I remember testing the Kan’s by pushing in the bass unit in a few millimetres and holding a few seconds before releasing it. I thinks my units move out twice as fast as the ones I tested 20 years ago. But an old memory isn’t always to be trusted… All the tweeters and bass units are going to be resealed by default. Maybe that is enough?
lejonklou wrote:I think it's quite difficult to improve them by bracing the cabinet, as you push the resonant frequencies higher up where they might do more harm. Also, the inside of the cabinet is most likely covered with a spongy fiber board that you might have to cut through to allow bracing.
I know some cheaper small speakers like the JPW Minim that have benefited from a brace from the back of the cabinet to the baffle between the two speaker units. But you are probably right.
lejonklou wrote:On the original Kan's, the volume was carefully specified and I suspect you'll get a slight degradation if the volume increases. As it's hard to compare, I think I'd want to add something (like a bit of Ku-stone glued to the back wall? :D ), to keep the volume the same.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Well, if you have some Ku-stone laying around that you want to sell… :wink: Any other ideas on what I could fill the Kan’s with? Preferably something that improves it at the same time (Hence my bracing ideas.)

The progress on this project is a bit slow. It’s not the first on my agenda. I repaired an LK100 today, replaced the blown Sanken output transistors. (With Lejonklou solder! :) ) I might use that to power the Kan’s. I tried the LK100 against my own DIY power amp and the LK100 was very disappointing. Maybe my "oldschool" system for work or garden shed isn’t going to be good enough? But it is still fun! Thanks for all the valuable input!
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Post by jewa »

I might add that the kans is in my view excellent in presenting music. I can't really explain but I think newer Linn speakers does this differently (better tunedem) but something is lacking. I'm thinking that Linn might found limitations down this route and altered their way of designing speakers. This became apparent when comparing Unik with the Kans: Unik is a brilliant speaker in tune dem, but gives a very artificial presentation, Kans on the other hand gives a very live like presentation but is far inferior in tunedem. Really interesting difference. A mind opener regarding tunedem.

/jrr
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Post by Broccoli »

jewa wrote: I can't really explain but I think newer Linn speakers does this differently (better tunedem) but something is lacking.
Can't it also be a matter of personal taste? Having lived with Keilidh and Keltik for some years, I would probably not like the character in the presentation of the early Kan (which I've never heard though). If you've lived with Kan for a while on the other hand, you might get used to and like that sound instead?
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Post by jewa »

I don't know. Of course it's a matter of taste, quite simply it's a bit like the Naim side of Linn. I like it right now. My setup is not bad in tunedem with the Kans. But the Unik is clearly better than the Kans in that respect.
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Post by lejonklou »

I agree with you about Kan vs Unik, jewa.

I think the reason could be that Kan has mediocre drive units (by today's standards) that work in a very optimised cabinet, standing on optimised stands.

The Unik has much better drive units (especially the tweeter), but the cabinet and stands are far from Kan quality.

Just my guess...
Linnofil wrote:In the 80’ies I remember testing the Kan’s by pushing in the bass unit in a few millimetres and holding a few seconds before releasing it.
The best way to find the exact place where air leaks is to play a 10 Hz sinus tone (clean signal, no harmonics) and search with your ear or a stethoscope around the speaker. Often the screw holes leak slightly.
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Post by Broccoli »

jewa wrote:I don't know. Of course it's a matter of taste, quite simply it's a bit like the Naim side of Linn. I like it right now. My setup is not bad in tunedem with the Kans. But the Unik is clearly better than the Kans in that respect.
I was thinking more in terms of that you might be able to get used to Uniks if you had them for a few months. If you after that switch back to Kans you might not prefer their sound character anymore. Just a theory. (Sorry for the OT Linnofil.)
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Post by Linnofil »

Broccoli wrote:(Sorry for the OT Linnofil.)
No need to apologize, it's fun to see some action in this thread! (To bad there is no action on the actual speakers. ;) I will try and order some tweeters soon.

I have noticed that the "new" tweeters are not flat on the mounting surface. In the newer speakers the sealing is not as critical (or is it?) and the sealing is done with a gasket made of foam, What should I use for a pir of Kans? Should I mill the back surface of the tweeter flat? Or just do it with lots of glue/silicon? I can't measure the thickness of the tweeter flange. Maybe I have to mill it to make it flat against the speaker surface?
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Post by lejonklou »

When I did this conversion on a pair of Kan II's, I used silicone and made sure it was air tight. As the surface behind the tweeter normally doesn't become perfectly flat after you have removed the old tweeter and glue/silicon, I don't think the gasket supplied with the new tweeter will work.

I don't think you need to mill anything flat.

On the Kan II, the 3 protective bars in front of the new tweeter dome will push the fabric of the grilles out slightly. This shouldn't be a problem on yours, as the tweeter on the Kan I is not mounted as far forward as it is on the Kan II.
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:I raised the tweeter level in the passive filter by about 0.4 dB with one extra parallel resistor (compared several values) and I think it was worth the effort.
lejonklou wrote:
capacitors in the crossover, could they be getting old and need replacement?
I think it depends on what filter model it is you have in there. There were many iterations of the Kan filter. Post a picture of it so that we can help!
OK, pictures posted in my thread on the Swedish forum, see here: http://forum.selleri.de/viewtopic.php?p=48521#48521 Sorry for the lousy cellphone camera. Whats next? What resistors to replace or add to? Replace caps? Replace wiring with K400? New wool?
lejonklou wrote:I think it's quite difficult to improve them by bracing the cabinet, as you push the resonant frequencies higher up where they might do more harm. Also, the inside of the cabinet is most likely covered with a spongy fiber board that you might have to cut through to allow bracing.
I checked the inside of the Kan and on my I's there is no spongy material on the back wall, just on the sides. I'm still curious about bracing. I may try and do one each. (Before sealing them with silicone...) The back has som sticky thick black paint on it that feels almost like dried tar. Was this some kind of sealant?
lejonklou wrote:Are they for some reason leaky? Kan's should be absolutely air tight.
I have found the leak! The glue between the rubber suspension on the bassunits and the metal on the units has gone dry and has loosened a little. When i tried to take a closer look, a lot more came loose. I think I need to remove all the old glue and put on som new. Polyurethane? Any special procedures?

Progress is still slow (and therfore fun, no deadline) on this project, nothing new will happen until next year!
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Post by lejonklou »

Leave the resistors and coils as they are. The question is how much those bipolar caps change with time... I have not found anyone that knows for sure, but most likely they dry out just like normal water-based electrolytes do. Therefore it is likely that their values have changed quite a bit. If you can de-solder all of them from one circuit board and send them to me, I can measure them. I will do that for free - you have given me so many good tips in the past!

Luckily the original values on them are stated, so they are quite easy to replace and if you do so, do it with bipolar electrolytes! Other types (often regarded as "better" in the audio world) might degrade the total performance of your Kan's - unless you are prepared for quite a lot of trial and error!

The tar paint on the back wall was used to seal the enclosure and damp high resonances. I wouldn't count on bracing giving you a real improvement, but I have already said that, haven't I? :D

Glueing the suspension of the bass unit should not cause any problems. Not sure what they used in the original, but silicone or rubber cement is likely to work fine.
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:Leave the resistors and coils as they are.
OK, so no changes to the resistors at all? I got the impression that I almost certain got an improvement from raising the tweeter level. Why not in this case?
lejonklou wrote:The question is how much those bipolar caps change with time...
...
If you can de-solder all of them from one circuit board and send them to me, I can measure them. I will do that for free - you have given me so many good tips in the past!
First part is done today! I de-soldered the caps from one board. Now I just need to send them to you. How can I resist such an offer? Anything free must be a good thing, right? :D Anyway, you have given us all many more good tips in the past, and present. And I still don't see any work coming my way! ;)
lejonklou wrote:I wouldn't count on bracing giving you a real improvement, but I have already said that, haven't I? :D
Well, sometimes it takes a man like me to go where bold men have long feared to thread. (Such as supermarket HiFi stores!) And when I do, I can discover some great things, and even more dreadful things... I'll save all of you from the nasty stuff and just come back with the clean facts! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Now I really must try bracing... :wink:

Does you or anybody else think it is worth to replace wiring with K400 and put som new or different type wool inside?
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Post by lejonklou »

Linnofil wrote:OK, so no changes to the resistors at all?
Sorry Linnofil, I completely forgot about the tweeter change! My mind was all into the task of restoring an original filter only. Of course one of the resistors in each speaker needs a change in value. Either by replacement or - which I would recommend - by an additional parallel resistor on top of it.

Maybe you could draw a circuit diagram of the crossover? You have both capacitor and resistor values at hand, so you just need to follow the tracks.
Well, sometimes it takes a man like me to go where bold men have long feared to thread. (Such as supermarket HiFi stores!)
Agreed, you managed to find both a good radio and a super-cheap compact system (that I hear very often and still think is quite enjoyable). And you found the Sandisk Sansa (that needs a word of warning in the Absolute Bargains department as the latest model is not as good as the older ones...).

I am thankful for this, because when I read the magazine and newspaper reviews of popular stuff like portable music players, it continues to amaze me that sound quality is either not mentioned at all (despite really obvious differences) or the reviewer is completely deaf and praises some unit that has an unbearably unmusical sound.

So, go ahead, you pioneer! Brace the Kans! Live to tell us the result! :D

K400: Yes, of course! Make sure you get the direction right and twist it as many turns as it normally is per length unit.

Wool: Keep the original. Nothing better than wool, I believe. At least for the midrange frequencies, and these are likely to be very important in a pair of Kans.
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Post by Broccoli »

lejonklou wrote:
K400: Yes, of course! Make sure you get the direction right and twist it as many turns as it normally is per length unit.
Huh? Is there a normal turn per length unit for the K400?
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Post by lejonklou »

What I mean is that the positive and negative conductor is twisted in pairs inside the black insulation. That amount of twist is just right and should be used inside the loudspeaker as well.
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Post by Broccoli »

Ah, didn't know that.
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Post by Linnofil »

lejonklou wrote:The question is how much those bipolar caps change with time...
...
If you can de-solder all of them from one circuit board and send them to me, I can measure them. I will do that for free - you have given me so many good tips in the past!
Linnofil wrote:First part is done today! I de-soldered the caps from one board. Now I just need to send them to you. How can I resist such an offer?
I told you progress was going to be slow on this project! I'm now ready to ship the caps to Fredrik. I have also removed the good original Kan tweeter, without damage. Any buyers out there?

Next steps are:
1. Get the filters in order with possible new caps and a added resistor to adapt to the Ninka tweeter.
2. Mount new K400 cables on the filters with Lejonklou solder.
3. Mount the filters with cables in the Kan's.
4. Solder and fit the (not ready) renovated woofers and (not bought) new Ninka tweeters.

The question about bracing is still open, I really would like to try this. There is still time to decide. Since I must do one with and one without is requires a bit more work. And I can't seal the woofer before the tests. Despite all delays, I still think this is a fun project!
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Post by Efraim roots »

3 years later....

How did you Kan project turn out?
the players of instruments shall be there..
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Post by Linnofil »

Thanks Efraim roots for your interest in my Kan project! I will try and go through it by quoting my old post.
lejonklou wrote:The question is how much those bipolar caps change with time...
The answer is: A lot! The values of these caps where all over the place! Some where twice as high as the marked (original?) value. This made me question the sanity in using very old speakers (and electronics) without a recap. Is this the main reason for old speakers sounding crappy?
Linnofil wrote:I told you progress was going to be slow on this project!
I'm still keeping my promise! :-)
Linnofil wrote:Next steps are:
1. Get the filters in order with possible new caps and a added resistor to adapt to the Ninka tweeter.
This is done! New caps of different type is mounted on the filter boards. All caps where checked for direction before mounting. No resistor change was needed as the new caps adapt the filter to the Ninka tweeter.
Linnofil wrote:2. Mount new K400 cables on the filters with Lejonklou solder.
This is done, more than one roll of Lejonklou solder was used for the filters. (Caps and cables.)
Linnofil wrote:3. Mount the filters with cables in the Kan's.
This is also done! All these progress boxes are ticked of one after another, it makes me feel like I have done this really fast! :-)
Linnofil wrote:4. Solder and fit the (not ready) renovated woofers and (not bought) new Ninka tweeters.
Partly done! I did buy two pairs of Ninka tweeters and selected the two best ones for my Kans. I have renovated the woofers, cleaned and resealed the rubber ring around the cone. They now seem to work perfectly. I have made a quick test with one of them and it sounded amazing! I don't think I have ever heard Kan sound like this! (I know, better sources now, than when most Kan's where fresh.)
Linnofil wrote:The question about bracing is still open, I really would like to try this. There is still time to decide. Since I must do one with and one without is requires a bit more work. And I can't seal the woofer before the tests.
I'm now in the process of (If you actually belive that I'm ever in this process!) trying different mountings (foam gasket/no gasket etc) for the tweeter and alternative B110's for the woofers. I have made two 6 mm (1/4" for you non metrics) plates, with a 68 mm hole, that I have glued inside the cabinet, behind the tweeter, so I can use M4 (4 mm) thread screws made of stainless steel. This plate stabilizes the cabinet and makes the tweeter more tightly fitted to the cabinet. It also enables a more precise torque setting. I have modified the countersunk area for the tweeter to make it fit the Ninka tweeter. (It is thicker around the three holes. I'm still not sure if I should glue them back in or use the foam gasket. Any opinions?

I have got four KEF B110 "Constructor Series" woofers. I will try if they are any better than the original Kan woofers. When all this is fixed, tested and decided I will try bracing the cabinet before sealing the woofers. (Or use foam gasket here to?) I would (ideally) like to have a pair of Kan 2 stands for my evaluation of the different solutions. But I can't seem to get hold of any. If there is a demand I might post some build pictures.
Linnofil wrote:Despite all delays, I still think this is a fun project!
This is still very true!
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