Old Linn Kan I, can they be improved?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2011-10-20 20:49

Wow! Quite a project and quite a bit of work. I'll be interested to hear how it all ends up (if you ever do feel it is a completed project).

Efraim roots · Post by **Efraim roots** » 2011-10-21 12:00

Thanks for your follow up, interesting! I would absolutely be interested to see some pictures as well.

Linnofil:

I did buy two pairs of Ninka tweeters and selected the two best ones for my Kans. I have renovated the woofers

How did you evaluate which tweeters were best, and what have you done to renovate the woofers?

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2011-10-21 18:30

Efraim roots wrote:Thanks for your follow up, interesting! I would absolutely be interested to see some pictures as well.

I will see If I can get some more pictures. I only found one on my computer at work. It's a picture of the filters after I glued the red distance washers on the back of them, just before mounting in the cabinets. I have soldered the cables all the way to the actual components, for a more direct connection. Maybe it's better, maybe not. (Solder temperature will not be optimal) All cables, derived from K400, are in the correct direction and twisted as K400. I shall just try and figure out a good way to post the picture here... (I wonder why this is not allowed, as an attachement?)

Efraim roots wrote:How did you evaluate which tweeters were best, and what have you done to renovate the woofers?

I used the renovated Kan filter and just played music with the tweeter (and filter) outside the cabinet. One of the replacement B110 (since the originals where not fixed at that time) and a dummy tweeter (to seal the cabinet) where mounted in the cabinet. When testing with tunedem it was pretty obvious. Two of them where good and very similar. The other two was OK, but not as good and a bit different in performance and sound. I think (not 100% sure, only 99%) the two best ones came from different boxes. So they don't seem matched from Linn when delivered.

The woofers where cleaned around the rubber ring from all old glue. The chassis where also cleaned from all the glue. The cleaning was rather time consuming I must say. I then carefully glued the rubber ring back again with a new glue that allows for some movement. (Doesn't get rock hard.) I made sure that the cone was centered in the chassis and that there was enough glue to completely seal the drive unit. The other B110's I have, the "Constructor Series" have a much harder rubber ring and a more spongy feel to them. I suspect they sound a bit different. But I havent compared yet. Since the rubber was so different from the other B110' I didn't want to change the old rubber rings to new "unknown" stuff. The type of rubber probably changes the sound a lot.

Linntek · Post by **Linntek** » 2011-10-28 08:12

Different ninka tweeters - aha..
Exactly what I have found.
I've had 2 sets of Ninka tweeters, both 038/2. They didn't look the same and the didn't sound the same.
One set bought from a dealer an another set original mounted in my Ninka's

Efraim roots · Post by **Efraim roots** » 2013-01-13 18:29

lejonklou wrote:
Linnofil wrote:In the 80’ies I remember testing the Kan’s by pushing in the bass unit in a few millimetres and holding a few seconds before releasing it.
The best way to find the exact place where air leaks is to play a 10 Hz sinus tone (clean signal, no harmonics) and search with your ear or a stethoscope around the speaker. Often the screw holes leak slightly.

Is it safe to do this with your hifi, to play a 10hz sinus tone with your ds player and listen for leaks on Kans?

No problem for amps or speakers?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-01-13 19:32

Perfectly safe, provided you don't turn the volume up to max.

I don't know how low in frequency Linn's DS players go, but can't imagine 10 Hz being a problem. Anyone?

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2013-01-14 00:56

lejonklou wrote:Perfectly safe, provided you don't turn the volume up to max.

I don't know how low in frequency Linn's DS players go, but can't imagine 10 Hz being a problem. Anyone?

Output transformers of KDS/0 & Renew DS can saturate with excessive bass leading to a distorted sound... There has been discussion on the Linn forum as to cause: low frequency content and/or if "track contains a DC component that overloads the KDS transformers" I don't know if that's detrimental to the electronics, but I believe the distortion can harm loudspeakers at higher volumes.

Efraim roots · Post by **Efraim roots** » 2013-01-14 03:04

Thanks, now I tried to play a 10hz sinus tone thru the Kans with the hifi and it worked fine. I couldn't hear any leaks tho, the background noise from tweeter and bass unit was dominating.

When I perform the test Linnofil describes my bass units move freely, just like a ported design. So they must be leaky then? I can borrow a stethoscope but it will probably take time until I get that chance.

The Kans sound very nice btw, I think I will start my own Kan project, but I will keep on 'the more original the better' route.

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2013-01-14 12:05

Linntek wrote:Different ninka tweeters - aha..
Exactly what I have found.
I've had 2 sets of Ninka tweeters, both 038/2. They didn't look the same and the didn't sound the same.
One set bought from a dealer an another set original mounted in my Ninka's

The chassis of Ninka tweeters where originally made of plastic, now the are made of aluminium. I don't know it there has been any significant changes since then. The aluminium version is better. (No surprise.)

I just wanted to clarify that my testing was of brand new tweeters bought at the same time. So they where the same spec, just performing different individually. A small scale selective process to optimise my Kans...

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2013-01-14 12:11

Efraim roots wrote:When I perform the test Linnofil describes my bass units move freely, just like a ported design. So they must be leaky then?

I think so. Although I'm certainly no expert on these things. It's just the way Linn demonstrated the build quality at the time when the Kan was the greatest small speaker ever made... But how air tight must they be to sound good? I don't know?

Efraim roots wrote:The Kans sound very nice btw, I think I will start my own Kan project, but I will keep on 'the more original the better' route.

Considering my results, I would suggest not to keep them original! Maybe there will be an opportunity for you to test my Kans before you start your project?

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2013-01-14 12:16

Since this thread showed up again I realize that it's time for another (late...) update!

They are now almost finished. The only big thing that I haven't done is to test bracing the cabinet. As mentioned in one of my above posts I had some B110 Constructor series units. I have now tested them in the Kan 1 and I must say that they are not as good as the renovated originals. I guess it's a reasonably good test to determine that my renovation was OK?

All connections are now soldered (with Lejonklou solder) and the bass units are sealed with a foam gasket. The tweeters are sealed with the original foam gasket glued to the back of the Ninka units. Since I have not finished my bracing test I don't want to glue them yet. I also would like to test to break off the three bars on the tweeters. Is that a good idea? I still have kids at home, but they are older now and less likely to do something stupid now days. If I don't glue the fronts I can always pop the dome out if something happens. I don't think I will want to glue the fronts anyway, since I occasionally want to check the torque on the units.

I will probably glue the units with silicone sealant when I feel finished with my testing. Then I hope they pass all type of leak tests!

I tested some modern synthetic speaker wool type damping in the Kan's and it only made them sound less musical. I also tested with different amounts. But the best was to have the same amount of natural wool that was there to begin with. No real surprise maybe, but I believed the bigger internal volume of the Kan's (with the much smaller tweeter) might affect this.

I'm already very happy with them and still have a couple more tweaks to test. I don't think the sound very far from my Majik 109's. (I'm a source first type of guy, so others may not agree.) Best Kan 1's ever?

I now have them in the kids TV corner with a 42" LED 3D and a 3D Blu-ray player connected to a Naim Nait 2. Sounds pretty good on movies.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-01-14 12:47

Linnofil wrote: I also would like to test to break off the three bars on the tweeters. Is that a good idea?

I did this on my units (Keltik), no worries.
The performance enhancement was marginal.

Linnofil wrote: I now have them in the kids TV corner with a 42" LED 3D and a 3D Blu-ray player connected to a Naim Nait 2. Sounds pretty good on movies.

I'm glad the Nait serves you well!

Efraim roots · Post by **Efraim roots** » 2013-10-20 23:43

Linnofil wrote:
Next steps are:
1. Get the filters in order with possible new caps and a added resistor to adapt to the Ninka tweeter.

This is done! New caps of different type is mounted on the filter boards. All caps where checked for direction before mounting. No resistor change was needed as the new caps adapt the filter to the Ninka tweeter.

Hello again. As you understand I'm quite interested in your Kans :-)
I wonder about this procedure you mentioned earlier. Can you tell me little more about this. You selected caps of different type, why and how? How did new caps adapt the filter to the Ninka tweeter, did you chose a different value than original spec?
Any sense of dis-integration between the modern tweeter and ancient woofer?

I also wonder how you fastened your new tweeters, direct into the wood or did you install a threaded insert of some kind? That would make it possible to fine torque the tweeters I guess. But maybe it sound worse than wood screws into the mdf baffle?

Personally I'm thinking I would like to finish my own project (which has not started) with some kind of liquid gasket used on the both tweeter and bass. Seems like a popular choice of 'flat-earth speakers' back in the days. Glue seems little to inconvenient, but something that stays liquid. Thoughts on this? Or maybe go the natural route with leather gasket and kashmir grilles :-P

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2013-10-28 00:22

Efraim roots wrote:Hello again. As you understand I'm quite interested in your Kans :-)

I'm greatful for your interest!

Efraim roots wrote:You selected caps of different type, why and how?

I went for polypropylen capacitors on the advice of Fredrik Lejonklou. It's also my personal experience that they are good for audio. They are also stable and bipolar by nature. (People are not usually both...)

Efraim roots wrote:How did new caps adapt the filter to the Ninka tweeter

They have a different resistance than the original electrolytes.

Efraim roots wrote:did you chose a different value than original spec?

I used original spec, For some capacitors I used 3x0.33 instead of 1uF.

Efraim roots wrote:Any sense of dis-integration between the modern tweeter and ancient woofer?

No, not really. I'm not a real speaker type of guy, so I might not notice. But the musicality of these speakers is the best I have heard in a pair of Kan's. I love them as they are now.

Efraim roots wrote:I also wonder how you fastened your new tweeters, direct into the wood or did you install a threaded insert of some kind? That would make it possible to fine torque the tweeters I guess. But maybe it sound worse than wood screws into the mdf baffle?

I have a 6 mm aluminium plate mounted behind the tweeter. It is drilled with a 68-70 mm hole for the tweeter and glued on the front, inside the speaker. The tweeter is then mounted with M4 stainless steel bolts threaded into the aluminum plate. I have carved the fronts so they fit the back of the Ninka tweeters. That is to ensure that it's reasonably air tight with just the foam gasket.

Efraim roots wrote:Personally I'm thinking I would like to finish my own project (which has not started) with some kind of liquid gasket used on the both tweeter and bass. Seems like a popular choice of 'flat-earth speakers' back in the days. Glue seems little to inconvenient, but something that stays liquid. Thoughts on this?

I have used foam gaskets, since I'm not sure I'm finished with them yet. I still have bracing to test and removing the three bars on the tweeter. But since they are now in use, testing more with them is less likely for a while.

Efraim roots · Post by **Efraim roots** » 2013-10-28 23:14

Great stuff, Thanks a lot for sharing! Gives me a little head start on my project. Only problem is that my Kans is in everyday use so I must have some replacements for this project to start. I'm planning to start with the filter, but maybe I'll get new tweeters right away also. I think I'll go for the replacement tweeter OWI-92 from Hiquphon. This is a modified OWI that will fit exactly into the specific speaker cabinet using the older tweeters produced for LINN, according to Hiquphon website. I'm also into the threaded insert idea for tweeter fastening, but I'm thinking the more standard approach of using a "claw insert nut" or maybe a "rubber insert nut", we'll see. Also I will be looking for a good liquid gasket, I want something that stay liquid for more easy removal of drive units.

How about removing the filter outside the box ala Klångedang? Seems important to the performance of Klångedang. Also reported by Naim users that removing the X-over from the back of Naim speakers is a big improvement (putting them on some dedicated support). Maybe a safer bet than bracing.. Or maybe a lot of hassle for little gain.. Opens up for more tweaks tho, optimizing the filter environment, could even build alternative filter to try very easy.

*WARNING* My project also going to be slow, but give me next year and at least one pair of my speakers will be renovated, the other pair is Naim IBL (total renovation needed, not usable at the moment.)

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2013-10-29 19:03

I always liked the Naim loudspeaker names from that time.

DBL - Damn Big Loudspeaker
SBL - Small Box Loudspeaker
IBL - Itty-Bitty Loudspeaker

lettuceleaf · Post by **lettuceleaf** » 2014-01-05 16:59

I think the design of the Kan's is based on the BBC LS3/5a design, with KEF B110 and T27 tweeter - these drivers turn up on eBay frequently!

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-01-05 20:34

lettuceleaf wrote:I think the design of the Kan's is based on the BBC LS3/5a design, with KEF B110 and T27 tweeter - these drivers turn up on eBay frequently!

Linn did not use the original drive units. There is detailed information available as to which part and model was used on each version of the Kan. The B110 was modified in several ways and therefore very difficult to find today.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-01-07 00:10

lejonklou wrote:
lettuceleaf wrote:I think the design of the Kan's is based on the BBC LS3/5a design, with KEF B110 and T27 tweeter - these drivers turn up on eBay frequently!
Linn did not use the original drive units. There is detailed information available as to which part and model was used on each version of the Kan. The B110 was modified in several ways and therefore very difficult to find today.

In addition, Linn did not use the T27 tweeter. Instead I believe tweeters from Hiquophon or Scanspeak were used depending on the age.

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2014-01-07 17:50

lejonklou wrote:Linn did not use the original drive units. There is detailed information available as to which part and model was used on each version of the Kan. The B110 was modified in several ways and therefore very difficult to find today.

As I mentioned in an earlier post I did try a newer KEF B110 "Constructor series" and it was clearly inferior to the (lightly renovated) original drive unit modified by Linn. I had Hiquophon tweeters in my Kan I's, now replaced with Katan/Ninka units.

Efraim roots · Post by **Efraim roots** » 2014-11-30 01:56

I have now opened one of my Kans to recap the crossover, I thought it would be easy to take out the three caps and replace them with new ones. But I'm completely lost now, first it seems like the values on the old caps are not standard values, this could be solved by using different value caps in parallell I've heard, but what about Voltage, must it be the same as the original value of 50V? Secondly there is also a lot to chose from on the market, a lot with audiophile descriptions which make me really suspicious, and it also gets expensive. Then they must fit on the circuit board, not being too big.

What I found on the Kan filter was three caps

1x 4,7uF 50V (grey wicon bipolar capacitor)
1x 5uF 50V (grey wicon bipolar capacitor)
1x 14uF 50V (yellow wicon bipolar capacitor)

Please can someone help me buy new capacitors for my filter, concrete suggestions appreciated! (e.g "buy these here") I feel really lost, and playing my hifi in mono with one Kan speaker for days isn't helping.

Efraim roots · Post by **Efraim roots** » 2014-12-02 11:03

Kan is a fantastic speaker and a big part of the legacy of how to build and set up musically transparent hifi. It's my duty to restore these speaker to make them live on to tell the tale. Even today in unmodified 30year old condition It will kill almost all the competition out there, in fact you can probably beat most of them with only one Kan in mono. Is it because Kan is a super fantastic speaker, probably not, it's the competition that is terrible and lost. If we don't respect the legacy we may be lost too one day.

I appeal to You for some advice how to restore these building blocks of our legacy. Each one teach one.

(tongue in cheek, but still... I need just a little help to get going, the speaker is on the working table and I can't wait to start assembling them, I have a plan, it was just a surprise that I couldn't buy the replacement caps off the shelf.)

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2014-12-02 13:23

Efraim,

I have found two links:

http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/linn-k ... twork.html

http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/repair- ... ce-4-w.asp

Try to contact them or phone to Linn HQ in Glasgow

ATB

Matt

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2014-12-02 15:09

I will see if I can find some photos of my rebuilt crossovers somewhere. I remember having several capacitors in parallell to get the right value for some of them. I also checked them all for direction before soldering them.

I know you live reasonably close to me (as I have seen you at Tonläget) so if you want, you can borrow my Kan 1's for reference. I was really happy with them after my project. (Still am!)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-12-02 15:56

Wise words Efraim!

I'd be happy to help if I could. In my experience the only way to handle a delicate project like this is to (1) collect every brand and model of the specific type of capacitor in question (in this case bipolar electrolythics). And then (2) compare them all by listening. When that is done, (3) try other types of capacitors (e.g. plastic film) with the same value. Finally, (4) try varying the values slightly up and down from the original value. And if another type was close in performance in step 3, repeat 4 with that type and finally (5) compare the best performing values of each of those types.

I realise this kind of procedure probably requires too much expense and time for a hobby project. If so, I would only take advice from someone who has worked on this specific loudspeaker and has used the Tune Method. Luckily Linnofil fulfills both criteria!