The Linnofil Super NAS!

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Linncredible
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Post by Linncredible »

Linncredible wrote:
flojo wrote:Did you already try testing RAM strips one by one: so first put in one strip, rebooting, see if the systems starts etc and then the other? This way you can see, if one of your strips is broken and determine if the hardware is causing problems.
Good idea flojo, will investigate this. Thanks!
Have done this now. Works perfectly fine to boot NAS with only one memory strip installed each time. Both memory strips is working fine. System reports that installed memory = 4GB and that it is possible to use 3,6GB.

When I install both memory strips at same time and boot the NAS, the system reports that installed memory = 8GB and that it is possible to use 3,6GB.

This is most certainly a mystery...
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Post by tokenbrit »

Linncredible wrote:
Linncredible wrote:
flojo wrote:Did you already try testing RAM strips one by one: so first put in one strip, rebooting, see if the systems starts etc and then the other? This way you can see, if one of your strips is broken and determine if the hardware is causing problems.
Good idea flojo, will investigate this. Thanks!
Have done this now. Works perfectly fine to boot NAS with only one memory strip installed each time. Both memory strips is working fine. System reports that installed memory = 4GB and that it is possible to use 3,6GB.

When I install both memory strips at same time and boot the NAS, the system reports that installed memory = 8GB and that it is possible to use 3,6GB.

This is most certainly a mystery...
Is your CPU 64 bit?
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Linncredible
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Post by Linncredible »

tokenbrit wrote:
Is your CPU 64 bit?
Well, it is the recommended MB and it has the AMD E-450 processor (http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/E45M1I_DELUXE/) which is a 64 bit processor (http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-E-Seri ... 138.0.html), so I guess the answer is yes.

Edit: I have now contacted Kingston technical support. Hope to get some kind of answer to solve this.
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Post by christian »

LSNAS owners! It´s time for letting Microsoft go!

I have been running Debian Linux for a couple of weeks now and think it works just fine. Asset runs perfect and you are able to reach asset through a web browser for configuration and rescans, so no need for keyboard, mouse and screen on the NAS. I have only done a few tests back and forth but I am confident that sound quality is better with Linux. Also rescans runs like a flash. I have about 1200 albums on the NAS and a rescan to find new albums takes about 15 seconds. I think that took minutes on windows.

The best part is yet to come: Yesterday I did a test with a disk that was not formatted by windows to NTFS but instead I let Linux format it to a file system that is called EXT4, which is common in Linux. I took some of the music files that I keep on my ordinary Intel SSD with NTFS and copied them to the EXT4 disk. Reconfigured Asset and then made comparisons. EXT4 file system on Linux is a major improvement! Music just flows! I really recommend all users of the LSNAS to try this.

Best way is to get another system disk and replace the current and install Linux on the new one. That way you can easily go back, if you for some reason don´t like what you hear.

I downloaded Linux from here:

http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/7.7 ... 4/iso-dvd/

You only need the first DVD image. Burn the image to a DVD, reboot from that and then I installed using the recommended options.

You also need to download a driver for the Ethernet interface, which is important since Debian needs access to the Internet during the installation. Download the driver and put that on a USB stick and Debian will find it. I don´t really remember where I found the driver but as I remember it I googled for it and found it at once. Sorry for not being more precise about this.

Then you need to install Asset and that can be downloaded from here:

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/asset-upnp-dlna.htm

Installation instructions are on the same page.

I have done a few more things:
Auto logon of the current user so that the NAS starts without a logon screen. Don´t really remember where that option was but it was easy to find.

Mount of all the disk drives automatically, otherwise asset can´t reach them until you have manually accessed them. I will get back about this if anyone needs that information. You need to edit some sort of start file to get this to work. It´s not hard at all once you get it right.

Debian installs a lot of programs during the installation, for example office programs, games and so on. I have not yet tried to uninstall these programs, but that might also improve performance further. Also if you know Linux I think you can install just a tiny bit of it without the graphical user interface and perhaps that’s the way to proceed for even more performance. Lots of things to investigate, but the reward is there when you listen to your favourite albums and hear them in a completely new and better way!
Kind regards
Christian
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Post by cortina »

christian wrote:LSNAS owners! It´s time for letting Microsoft go!

I have been running Debian Linux for a couple of weeks now and think it works just fine. Asset runs perfect and you are able to reach asset through a web browser for configuration and rescans, so no need for keyboard, mouse and screen on the NAS.
Interesting indeed. Would be a great bonus to get rid of the keyboard and monitor. Being a Linux novice, how is the Linux LSNAS accessed through a browser only? Through a server/terminal software on another (e.g. windows) PC?
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Post by christian »

cortina wrote: Interesting indeed. Would be a great bonus to get rid of the keyboard and monitor. Being a Linux novice, how is the Linux LSNAS accessed through a browser only? Through a server/terminal software on another (e.g. windows) PC?
Sorry it is only the media server Asset that can be reached through a Browser. Any normal Internet browser will work. For configuration of the NAS itself you need a keyboard, screen etc. But once you are done with that it is not so often needed. I guess there are also remote desktop functions that I have not yet discovered.
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Christian
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Post by cortina »

Ok, I see. I was thinking if/when adding files via usb-disk or similar.

Regarding getting rid of keyboard etc. I have not managed to find the usual bios setting where you enter halt on no errors in the Asus fancy bios. Anybody who knows how to get the NAS to ignore whether keyboard, mouse etc is connected when booting up?
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Post by David Neel »

Christian - thanks for the report. Just as I have found that ThomasOK was right about Songbox being better than Asset, you report that Debian is better than Windows. Songbox/Kazoo is (of course) not available for Linux!

I will definitely try this - but not immediately. I will buy a separate SSD for the Debian trial. Would 40GB be enough? I know you have not yet stripped down the install, but could I install Debian and Asset on a 40GB SSD, and still have a bit of space if needed for ripping software?

Thanks again!
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Post by tokenbrit »

David Neel wrote:Christian - thanks for the report. Just as I have found that ThomasOK was right about Songbox being better than Asset, you report that Debian is better than Windows. Songbox/Kazoo is (of course) not available for Linux!

I will definitely try this - but not immediately. I will buy a separate SSD for the Debian trial. Would 40GB be enough? I know you have not yet stripped down the install, but could I install Debian and Asset on a 40GB SSD, and still have a bit of space if needed for ripping software?

Thanks again!
40Gb should be plenty big enough - I ran Ubuntu on my laptop on a 40Gb SSD and had no problems, including plenty of storage (mail, files, etc.) A typical install of the OS is less than 10Gb - minimum hard disk space is listed as 5Gb for Debian ;)
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Post by David Neel »

Great! I'll order a 40GB SSD now.

Thanks, tokenbrit!
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Post by christian »

David Neel wrote: Would 40GB be enough? I know you have not yet stripped down the install, but could I install Debian and Asset on a 40GB SSD, and still have a bit of space if needed for ripping software?
Yes 40GB is enough and in fact the size of the disk that I am using as system disk.
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Post by christian »

cortina wrote:Ok, I see. I was thinking if/when adding files via usb-disk or similar.

Regarding getting rid of keyboard etc. I have not managed to find the usual bios setting where you enter halt on no errors in the Asus fancy bios. Anybody who knows how to get the NAS to ignore whether keyboard, mouse etc is connected when booting up?
For adding files I suggest sharing the music disk over the network. On windows I did this and it actually sounded better with file sharing on than off. On Debian I have not yet tried this.

Strange about the bios, I don´t remember changing this and I have used the Nas without a permanent screen etc. from the beginning.
Kind regards
Christian
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Post by David Neel »

christian wrote: Strange about the bios, I don´t remember changing this and I have used the Nas without a permanent screen etc. from the beginning.
Me too.
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Post by Linncredible »

Linncredible wrote:
Linncredible wrote:
flojo wrote:Did you already try testing RAM strips one by one: so first put in one strip, rebooting, see if the systems starts etc and then the other? This way you can see, if one of your strips is broken and determine if the hardware is causing problems.
Good idea flojo, will investigate this. Thanks!
Have done this now. Works perfectly fine to boot NAS with only one memory strip installed each time. Both memory strips is working fine. System reports that installed memory = 4GB and that it is possible to use 3,6GB.

When I install both memory strips at same time and boot the NAS, the system reports that installed memory = 8GB and that it is possible to use 3,6GB.

This is most certainly a mystery...
Have now gone through the technical specification of the Kingston RAM to check if voltage, frequency etc has the right settings in BIOS. Nothing strange there and no solution. Tried then to switch the two memory strips between the two slots. And suddenly - problem gone, 8 GB installed 7,6 BG available memory!! This is so strange, but hey, now I'm just glad everything seems to work just as it should. A big thanks to all LS NAS fellows who has supported with ideas for solutions etc! Also of course very interesting with christians new Linux findings, sounds very promising!!
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Post by stefan »

David Neel wrote:Christian - thanks for the report. Just as I have found that ThomasOK was right about Songbox being better than Asset, you report that Debian is better than Windows. Songbox/Kazoo is (of course) not available for Linux!
...........................
Well, actually it is now
http://oss.linn.co.uk/trac/wiki/DownloadKazooServer
But that's Latest Nightly Builds

At least you can try what it sounds like. Eventually you will get a stable release for Debian and hopefully they port it to QNAP ARM (which is what I have).

Nobody tried Minimserver? I'm running Asset on my QNAP since a couple of months and that's significantly better than the Twonky I used before (version 6, QNAP recently updated it to 7 but I haven't tried that. Doubt it will match Asset). Seems like quite a few at Linns forum have Minimserver but they write only about features rather than musical preformance vs Twonky (or Asset for that matter). Yeah, I know. I can try it myself.
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Post by David Neel »

Thanks, Stefan. I'd not spotted that Kazoo is being built for Debian, it will be interesting to try it at some point.

My findings with Kazoo were that it is musically inferior to its predecessor Songbox - strange but true. I preferred Asset to Kazoo, inferior sonics but much greater musicality. If future releases of Kazoo recapture Songbox's musicality, it could be the best.

I may try minimserver under Windows this weekend - if it rains and I have an excuse to play with the LSNAS!
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Post by David Neel »

Quick report on Minimserver. I installed over the weekend, and did a series of comparisons between Minimserver, Asset, and Songbox. Musically that was the order, best was last.

Minimserver and Java now uninstalled. Songbox replaced with the latest Kazoo beta, which I found preferable to the stable release (not a direct comparison, just my memory). Further testing required - but as long as Kazoo/Songbox continues to drop out at random, I'm keeping Asset installed.

Next experiment will be Debian - a new Intel 320 40GB arrived today.
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Post by stefan »

Thanks for the report David. If you have more than one mediaserver installed, be sure to turn off/disable the one not in use. As said, I'm running Asset on QNAP now and for the best performance the build-in Twonky must be disabled. The difference is significant.
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Post by David Neel »

Stefan - in the past I have disabled or uninstalled Asset and Songbox when comparing, but not this time. All three (Asset, Kazoo, Minimserver) were running while I switched between them. But there was not enough from Minimserver to make me want to investigate further.

Currently I have Asset and Kazoo both running. Asset can be switched off, but Kazoo appears to need uninstallation to stop it running. I'm keeping Asset at the moment because I've not worked out what causes Kazoo/Songbox to drop out on my system, so I can't rely on it yet.

I plan to try Debian with Asset next, then revisit the server software if I revert to Windows.
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Post by christian »

cortina wrote:Regarding getting rid of keyboard etc. I have not managed to find the usual bios setting where you enter halt on no errors in the Asus fancy bios. Anybody who knows how to get the NAS to ignore whether keyboard, mouse etc is connected when booting up?
Hi, I think you have changed the deafult setting for USB devices. It can be found under advanced options. I tried to change this just to see if there where any sonic differeces but when I changed it the Nas would not boot without keyboard.

Also I like to mention that there is an option to disable the HD sound on the motherboard. Don't do this, music gets worse. I have not been totally happy for the last few days and started thinking about if I had done any changes. I remebered that I changed the setting for the HD sound. You would think that it is better to keep this shutted down but it is obvious that it is better to keep it on.
Kind regards
Christian
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Debian up and running.... eventually

Post by David Neel »

It's taken me some time to get Debian working on my LSNAS. For the benefit of anybody who follows, here are some observations and additions/amplifications to Christian's basic instructions a few posts earlier.

1) My LSNAS is used with HDMI out to a TV when I need a screen, and a wireless keyboard. Access to BIOS setup was impossible until I used the DVI out to the TV's VGA input, and used a wired USB keyboard into a motherboard (not case) USB port. It seems that the HDMI takes too long to establish a connection, by which time the chance to enter setup was gone, and the wireless keyboard was crashing. This nearly stumped me at the off, as the install DVD could not be accessed. I needed to call an IT professional to get the answer here!

2) It is definitely recommended to install Debian on a separate disk, and leave the Windows boot disk untouched. That way, when you get it wrong, you can revert to the previous Windows setup without difficulty, and try Debian again another time.

3) Once Debian was installed, I had no success in mounting the music storage SSD, which is formatted NTFS. It can be done, according to the results from google, but I didn't manage it. Instead, I found a free (for personal use) package called extFS (www.paragon-software.com) which allows Windows to format a disk to ext4, and then read/write. So I copied all my music across to a new ext4 SSD under Windows. (Again, the Windows music SSD was left untouched, so if all failed I could revert to Windows.)

4) Once Debian was running, and Asset installed, I had to mount the music disk. This was simple enough at the command line, but I could not work out how to edit the /etc/fstab file so that this process happened automatically on startup. I solved this with a Debian package called Disk Manager, which I needed to install in addition to the standard installation. (I did a graphical expert install with Xfce as desktop environment.)

I don't want to make this sound as if Debian is something too complex to use. I have never used any form of Unix/Linux before, and building the LSNAS was the first time in 30 years I had tinkered inside a computer. Although I needed several evenings to completely finish the system, I was always able to revert to Windows and listen to music. In the process I have learnt a lot of how/why Debian works. My remaining task is to install PuTTY, so that I can control the system remotely.

Finally, how does it sound? I haven't yet done any direct comparisons, because I did not construct a dual-boot system, so I will need to disconnect/reconnect the SSDs to change the OS, but my first impressions match Christian's - Debian and ext4 is better than Win7 and NTFS.

EDIT: Second impressions are not so good, the sound has changed, but some musicality seems to have been lost. Direct comparisons will be made later today if I have time.
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Debian or Windows?

Post by David Neel »

I've now done some more listening....

There are four SSDs involved, all Intel 320 series, the two Debian ones bought new recently:

1) 120GB - Windows 7 HP system disk with Asset
2) 300GB - NTFS music disk
3) 40GB - Debian system disk with Asset
4) 160 GB - ext4 music disk - files copied from NTFS disk

Once I had successfully installed and set up Debian, I made a quick comparison between 1+2 and 3+4. This was late at night, and my first impressions were that 3+4 seemed better. (Note: these tests were done with the LSNAS connected to TV and keyboard, and because the LSNAS has to be brought out from under the stairs to do this, power cord and network connection were not optimised - but the same for both. In its regular location, the LSNAS is headless with Linn powercord and good Cat6 cable into hifi-dedicated GS105 switch.)

Then I reinstalled the Debian LSNAS in its usual location. The following day I became aware that I was no longer enjoying the music - it wasn't holding my attention, the musicality was gone.

Today I have tried to isolate the variables. Comparing 1+2 with 3+4 varied both OS and music disk file system at the same time. It also assumes that all Intel 320 SSDs are comparable.

Now that I have worked out how to access NTFS under Debian, and ext4 under windows, I have tried the following combinations (LSNAS again with TV, keyboard, etc):

3+4 - sonically good, but unengaging, no tension to the music
1+2 - a little less detail (?) but better to listen to
1+4 - distinctly worse than 1+2, boring
3+2 - sonically a little bit better than 1+2, keeps the tension in the music so definitely preferable to 3+4

Conclusions from this exercise are that Debian is a little bit ahead of Windows, and that the differences between disk 2 and disk 4 are bigger than the differences between Windows and Debian.

So, either the new music SSD is not as good as my earlier one (both Intel 320 bought new), or ext4 is inferior to NTFS, which contradicts Christian's findings. Can anybody comment on the variability of Intel 320 SSDs?

Next, I will reformat disk 4 to NTFS and see what happens.

EDIT: disk 4 reformatted to NTFS sounds as good as disk 2 under both Windows and Debian - looks like ext4 was the problem? Christian - did your trial of ext4 have any other variables?
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Re: Debian or Windows?

Post by christian »

David Neel wrote: EDIT: disk 4 reformatted to NTFS sounds as good as disk 2 under both Windows and Debian - looks like ext4 was the problem? Christian - did your trial of ext4 have any other variables?
Thanks David Neel for all the time and effort that you put into this!

My tests were done with a new 60GB Intel 320 SSD. I compared that disk formatted to ext4 to NTFS on my old 300 GB Intel 320 SSD. Both were mounted under Debian at the same time. Difference was so big that I made the radical deciction to format the two 300 GB disk that I am using to Ext4 and then restore a backup with all the music. When I did the comparsions I took the first album at hand which happened to be Bayou Country with CCR. On every song I felt that the band was so much better when played from the ext4 disk. For instance I have always felt that the drummer starts off a little bit off on the song Bootleg. Suddenly he was hitting the note right from the start.

One thing that I think differs is that I formatted the disk with Debian and I got the impression that you used a windows software?
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Christian
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Post by David Neel »

Christian,

Yes, I did the ext4 format and file copy under Windows. And I also did the reformat to NTFS and second file copy under Windows. And the 160GB disk now sounds fantastic, maybe slightly better than the 300GB.

I will retry the format and file copy under Debian. But not tonight, the wine bottle is looking a bit low.....

And thanks for the recommendation of Debian - I'm happy that it is a bit better than Windows, and it doesn't require regular rebooting, and PuTTY is a great way of running it headless.
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Post by tokenbrit »

If your SSD is large enough and/or your music library small enough, you could partition the SSD: one partition formatted as NTFS, the other as ext4. That should eliminate variability between SSDs...

The other variable that I recall was a report that music files sounded better if ripped directly to the drive, rather than being copied. If copying makes a difference, then it's not beyond mental reach to consider that using different OSs to copy files may also affect the result.

I quite understand if a bottle of wine within physical reach then that might take priority :)
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