The Linnofil Super NAS!

Hardware and software, modifications and DIY

Moderator: Staff

David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 975
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Post by David Neel »

Since my files have been copied, but sound (possibly, slightly) better than the original, then I suspect either:

1) no degradation on copying, or
2) the new disk is better than the old

either way, that bottle is looking emptier all the time....
christian
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-02-22 10:21
Location: Sweden

Post by christian »

I didn´t have any wine while I was doing my comparisons, but I might try that this evening. ;)

On the subject of copying I want to tell you this: A couple of days ago Linnofil were at my house playing music. He brought a couple of albums on an usb stick. Linnofil is a great ripper as we know :) but when we compared his music to mine all of the albums was tired a boring sounding. Our conclusion was that somehow the files got corrupted during ether copying or more likely by the storage on the usb stick.

Also I have never found studio master files very impressive in an musical perspective and I wonder if the transportation over the Internet has something to do with this?
Kind regards
Christian
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 975
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Post by David Neel »

christian wrote:I didn´t have any wine while I was doing my comparisons, but I might try that this evening. ;)
In case you doubt the results of my comparisons, the wine was only opened once they were completed..... ;)

But given a choice of listening to more music and another glass, or reformatting the disk and recopying files again - reformatting the disk lost! I'll try this weekend, perhaps.

Interesting that you found Linnofil's copied files "tired and boring sounding" - this is a good description of my files under ext4. But how can the copying process corrupt files?
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

David Neel wrote: But how can the copying process corrupt files?
I have no idea either, but up to date all copied files here sounded worse than the 'originals' (equally performing disks required, of course). Even a copy on the same disk does not sound the same. So I'm still lacking a good idea for a backup.....
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 975
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Post by David Neel »

That's a bit worrying - if all copies degrade the file.

My original rips were done on my laptop before I built the LSNAS, only a few were later done direct to the LSNAS. When I listened to the ext4 SSD, the files had been ripped to laptop, copied to the original music SSD on the LSNAS, then copied to a USB hard drive, then copied to the new music SSD. And I felt the ext4 drive sounded poor.

Then I reformatted the ext4 drive to NTFS, and recopied the music files direct from the first SSD (eliminating the external USB drive). This was the drive where I reported I was now happy with the sound, and I have continued to use it since. Maybe my happiness was due to eliminating one copy generation, rather than reformatting to NTFS?

Too many variables!

Luckily in my case, I have many fewer CDs than vinyl, and I'm intending to do a complete re-rip once I finalise the LSNAS and determine the best ripping solution.
christian
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-02-22 10:21
Location: Sweden

Post by christian »

This weekend I also did some tests. I normally rip the CDs using EAC on a Windows 7 PC with SSD drive. I then copy the files over the network to the LS NAS.

This weekend I tried to rip the files directly to the Ext4 formatted network drive on the LSNAS. I have installed Samba on the LSNas and by using that I can share folders on the network. Anyway I got a small improvement when I ripped directly to the LSNAS compared to Rip and then Copy. Improvement is not so big that I consider to rerip all my CDs but I will use this method for all future CDs.
Kind regards
Christian
donuk
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 406
Joined: 2010-02-21 13:25

Post by donuk »

I rip my CDs using dbPoweramp to a hard drive on my Windows 7 PC. I then use a nice free programme called CopyTo to copy new rippings to my NAS. It also verifies the copy.
So what are your ears picking up that is different in the ripped file as opposed to a copy? Have you a technical explanation for this.

I am not suggesting you guys are not experiencing this phonomenon, I just thought that a digital file is a digital file is a digital file. That being the whole point of digital!

Even those who can hear differences in ethernet cables can point to the possibility of different amounts of extraneous RF getting into the system. But your findings leave me mystified.

And while you are listening hard to your files, can you hear a difference between WAV and FLAC. I am unable to on my ADS/1

Perplexed of beautiful downtown York
(Don)
leif_lar
New member
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 2009-12-26 18:52

Post by leif_lar »

Out of curiosity and without having read the whole thread, but have you made a comparison of the checksums on the original file and the copy ?

It seems to me you are pretty comfortable running Linux right ?
If so its very easy, just use the command md5sum (same on mac):

md5sum 01-tracy_chapman_-_crossroads.flac
b988de2e55c51fcb3aa0278a6743497a 01-tracy_chapman_-_crossroads.flac

This is an example on running the command on a flac file. The result is the number starting with b988....

This number should be exactly the same on the copy. If a single 1 or 0 has changed on any file the checksums wont be the same.
christian
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-02-22 10:21
Location: Sweden

Post by christian »

I am pretty sure that that the copied file is the same as the original file.

“Digital is Digital”. - We are way past that. This is something that we, or at least no one that I know of, has the knowledge to understand. Positioning of the Nas, the LS NAS itself, different Ethernet Cables, different disks in the NAS, not to talk about ripping solutions. A lot of strange things do occur and I think it is important to keep an open mind and just accept that we, at this point, don´t understand why we get these results.
Kind regards
Christian
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Post by tokenbrit »

I wonder if it has to anything do with file systems/formats or fragmentation, in terms of processing.
Digital is digital and lossless is lossless in terms of the data, but who's to say what the musical impact is of any data processing overhead ... Linn say none, but used to acknowledge a difference betwen lossless formats. (doesn't fit with their Exakt marketing, so is now rejected)
Miniscule current differences, or processing latencies won't change the data, but may impact the music. Maybe micro resonances whether physical, electro-mechanical, or electro-magnetic... All just speculation.
Why would a control firmware change in Sagatun change the sound - but it did.
We know that torque settings make a difference from source (including digital (DS)) through to speakers. Why not torques of any fasteners inside SSDs & NASs too?
Linnofil
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 343
Joined: 2007-02-05 22:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Post by Linnofil »

christian wrote:On the subject of copying I want to tell you this: A couple of days ago Linnofil were at my house playing music. He brought a couple of albums on an usb stick. Linnofil is a great ripper as we know :) but when we compared his music to mine all of the albums was tired a boring sounding. Our conclusion was that somehow the files got corrupted during ether copying or more likely by the storage on the usb stick.


I have tried these files on my LS-NAS, they are no good! This was a new USB 3.0 stick that I usually don't use for moving FLAC files, so the boring music was a bit surprising. It was very easy to hear the difference at home between the files copied back from that USB stick to a Intel 320 SSD and the original files still remaining on another 320 SSD. So something happens, but what?

I have more or less stopped wondering about that, because I don't know. All I know is that the effect is mostly the same with digital files as with analog material. The more you copy, the worse it gets. Cables, support/rack, power supplies, etc all have a big impact on the digital input signal in a playback system for digital files. Since I don't know, (and I don't know more for analog either, why or how a support/rack, a cable, a bipolar capacitors direction or a charger for your shaver in the bathroom makes a difference) I have to experiment and try. That is the thinking behind the LS-NAS.

For me it is a bit wierd that we think we know so much about analog systems and are now confused by the fact that we all of a sudden don´t understand digital systems. Digital is not perfect, that is an obvious illusion understood by more and more people. But that we already fully understand analog systems is almost an even bigger illusion, IMHO.
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

christian wrote: when we compared his music to mine all of the albums was tired a boring sounding. Our conclusion was that somehow the files got corrupted during either copying or more likely by the storage on the usb stick.
While I do not worry too much about storage time on a memory stick, I am concerned about storage on hdd. Does Windows (or the disk controller) reorganise the disk content from time to time? If so, does this deteriorate the music with ongoing time, as bits get copied around by the system? Can we avoid this?

A further example for the adverse effect of copying was a copy from one microSD to another in the same device (Fiio X5 Portable HiRes music player). The two versions sound simply different (specific card and slot excluded as reasons)....
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

Looking for a portable hires player brought the iriver company Astell Kern to my attention (hadn't heard of them before). A check of their products showed a device for music storage and CD-ripping which seems to do many things right according to the findings related to the definition of the LS-NAS. So the question is whether anyone can comment on the real life performance of this piece, the AK500, better or worse than the LS-NAS?

In contrast to Linn, the Astell Kern folks do care about storage and operation system, and of storage power supply, too. Similar to Linn they like to waste precious aluminium to impress the ‘audiophiles’. Nevertheless I see a chance that the AK500 could be a good performer. It uses SSD for storage, dispenses with Sata and USB cables (PCB connections instead), makes use of their own ripping software optimised for music they say, has a horizontal mainboard in a solid case, use a OS dedicated for playing music instead of Windows, has a build in DAC, even has a pre amp output (to dispense with the KK :) ), and runs from a battery which is loaded from mains only when necessary, so PSU problems should be non existent. All those issues were part of the tedious trial and error process of the LS-NAS development, further adding RAM and processor and mainboard and power cable and fan including fan speed. If all that is defined by someone who cares about both music and technology – great expectations indeed. But ‘all the proof of a pudding is in the eating’. Does anybody know?
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

Just a small note for those using a LSNAS and copying files via USB: With my E45 the USB3-port sounds considerably better than the USB2s. Not for streaming (not checked) but just for copying. I detected this accidentally when comparing USB cables for the copy process. It is the same effect on both of my E45s. When copied over the USB3 port my download of Shostakovich Sym3 (from Linn) sounds acceptable, over USB2 not. Since I never used this port but complained about the quality of downloaded music, I presumably have to re-evaluate a few downloaded files. So perhaps worth a try. I used the lower USB3 socket closest to the PCB.
User avatar
Linncredible
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-01-12 14:01
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by Linncredible »

For those about to build (and after that to rock! :-) ): one MB on Ebay, 17 h to bid...
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by ThomasOK »

If anybody is planning to build a LS-NAS (a very worthwhile endeavor) here is a MB with a reasonable starting price on eBay US:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Asus-E45M1-I-De ... 1760906593?
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by tokenbrit »

I'm interested in this motherboard to build a 'SuperNas' as an upgrade for my ReadyNas Duo - not keen on getting into a bidding war with anyone here over this mb, on ebay, tho'... would be worth coming to a gentlemen's (or woman) agreement so that one of us gets a bargain rather than drive up the price. Is anyone else planning to bid on this?
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by tokenbrit »

A couple of questions for those in the know:
1. is there any indication that RAID sounds better, or are additional 320 SSDs only needed for storage beyond 600Gb? If RAID isn't indicated, I can probably get by with just a single SSD...
2. the SH-224BB isn't that easy to track down reliably - does anyone have any experience with the SH-224DB, or SH-224FB to know if these are viable alternatives, or are there other optical drives to consider?
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by ThomasOK »

As far as I can recall nobody has recommended RAID on the LS-NAS. I have two 600G SSDs in my unit but I am not using them that way at present although I considered trying it - too much other stuff to do to get to it. To me one of the biggest questions with the streaming systems currently is backup. It seems that the evidence so far is that transferring files from one device to another causes loss of musicality, which I can’t say is surprising. I don’t know if anybody has tried backup to a second Intel 320 internal to the device either by copying files or via RAID but it would be interesting to see if anyone has come up with a backup strategy that doesn’t damage musicality at all. I think this is an area that is ripe for discussion.

It looks like the SAMSUNG SH-224BB is in stock at Newegg for $69.95.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote:It looks like the SAMSUNG SH-224BB is in stock at Newegg for $69.95.
Patience is a virtue, it seems: the listing on newegg is substantially cheaper now but there's a review that says the drive isn't made by Samsung, but is made by TSST now, and there's quite some variability in reported quality... all a bit confusing, and just not sure that I'll get what's recommended here.

On the subject of DVD ripping, is there a hierarchy with respect to location of the drive: internal to the NAS case; external connected to the NAS; internal or external to a desktop or laptop & ripped directly to the NAS via (W)LAN? Similarly, is there hierarchy between connection type: SATA; eSATA; USB3; USB2, or LAN?

Lastly, a few questions about preferred components... Do the suggestions from the first post still apply, or are there updates that I am missing: is Seasonic 460FL still the best power supply; Kingston KTH9600B/4G still the preferred memory to go with the E45M1-I Deluxe, and is the case a matter of choice or is there consensus on a 'best'? It's been almost 2 yrs since this thread started - that's a few lifetimes in terms of computer hardware, so just wondering if there are updated recommendations now.
Lemmy
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: 2009-05-18 18:50

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by Lemmy »

Has anyone tried Windows 10 on the LS-NAS?
Nicolav
Active member
Active member
Posts: 201
Joined: 2008-04-07 22:46
Location: Italy - Rome

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by Nicolav »

Lemmy wrote:Has anyone tried Windows 10 on the LS-NAS?
Hi Lemmy, I have installed windows 10 on LS-NAS with great results.
More flowing, more easy to follow the tune.

PS win 10 pro 64 used, and need to be sligtly tweaked to perform at best

Regards
Nicola
LP12/RadikalM/Keel/Ekos SE1/Ekstatik/Urika II/Klimax System Hub/Klimax Exaktbox's/10 Solos/A242
User avatar
Linncredible
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 2008-01-12 14:01
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by Linncredible »

Nicolav wrote:
Lemmy wrote:Has anyone tried Windows 10 on the LS-NAS?
Hi Lemmy, I have installed windows 10 on LS-NAS with great results.
More flowing, more easy to follow the tune.

PS win 10 pro 64 used, and need to be sligtly tweaked to perform at best

Regards
Nicola
Great news Nicolav! If possible please elaborate on the tweakings done!
Lemmy
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: 2009-05-18 18:50

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by Lemmy »

Thanks for the feedback Nicolav.
Nicolav
Active member
Active member
Posts: 201
Joined: 2008-04-07 22:46
Location: Italy - Rome

Re: The Linnofil Super NAS!

Post by Nicolav »

Hi all, the mod on services are explained on this link http://www.blackviper.com/service-confi ... gurations/
You have to click on show / hide column tab and select windows 10 pro and tweaked setting.
Best choice is to install win iso in english version, make no update and don't install any antivirus (if no need to go on internet as in my case).
And please apply all other system optimization as in the link above.
Enjoy and please report back!

PS I have installed win 10 on ssd and music on separate HDD (Seagate Constellation ES3 2 TB)

Regards
Nicolav
LP12/RadikalM/Keel/Ekos SE1/Ekstatik/Urika II/Klimax System Hub/Klimax Exaktbox's/10 Solos/A242
Post Reply