The Linnofil Super NAS!

Hardware and software, modifications and DIY

Moderator: Staff

Nicolav
Active member
Active member
Posts: 202
Joined: 2008-04-07 22:46
Location: Italy - Rome

Post by Nicolav »

ThomasOK wrote:I'll be using a used E45 motherboard that appears to be in excellent shape and which I got for a good price. The E2K does not appear to be available in the US yet.

Any other comments on the RAM - is the Kingston 2x4 GB DDR3 PC10600 1333MHz (KTH9600B/4G) still generally felt to be the best?
Some news about ram, torque and bios settings.
Few days ago I took a new ram to try: Kingston KHX16C9X3K2/8X
There are two modules of 4 GB each, the specs are similar to KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX tried by Linnofil.
This Kingston have a more pleasant sound with a bass more full bodied and deeper, but a little messy. KTH9600B/4G just sound more accurate and engaging, generally more trilling. So I strongly advise to buy before they run out.
To be continued...
LP12/RadikalM/Keel/Ekos SE1/Ekstatik/Urika II/Klimax System Hub/Klimax Exaktbox's/10 Solos/A242
Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by Azazello »

Topic split - this thread is hard to navigate as it is. ML - please forgive me, I missed your post in the split, and that cannot be fixed afterwards.
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

Nicolav wrote: Some news about ram, torque and bios settings.
Few days ago I took a new ram to try: Kingston KHX16C9X3K2/8X
There are two modules of 4 GB each, the specs are similar to KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX tried by Linnofil.
Do they have a similar run in time?
As two individuals of the same species seem to have different properties often, can you check whether the two modules sound the same?
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Some additional progress being made. I received the 600GB SSD and installed it in my MacPro for testing. Came up just fine after initializing it and shows 599+ GB available so at least it is working as specified. I ripped a new CD to it using iTunes and also the same one to my 1GB Seagate ES drive. Just playing them back through the computer DAC to good external speakers there was little difference to tell - maybe the SSD was a hair better but I wouldn't guarantee it. I know this is no real test but I don't have a DS at home right now. I was happy that at least the SSD seems to sound as good as the HD so it is likely working at least OK.

While I was ordering up the goodies I went ahead and ordered up one of the Samsung SH-224BB DVD burners as it was only $17.99 and free shipping. Interesting that the external case for it (eSATA and USB 2.0) cost almost three times the price of the drive! - such is the way of computer product pricing. I have one of the Optiarc 7200 units in my Mac Pro so should be able to compare the drives at some time.

Ordered the Fractal Design 140mm fan as it seemed like a good idea and was cheap, even though the case comes with a fan. Along with that I ordered a couple of Rosewill SATA cables to try out. They were cheap and the shipping was free so why not?

I have shipping confirmation on everything but the case. Not only does it come from China but the seller I ordered it from seems to take a couple of days to answer any questions. If I don't get shipping confirmation from them soon I will order it from another source. So hopefully I'll have everything I need to put it together by the end of next week.

Meantime, anybody with a good source for the SSDs should let everybody know. I bought mine used off eBay at a good price and am happy it appears to be working well.
Nicolav
Active member
Active member
Posts: 202
Joined: 2008-04-07 22:46
Location: Italy - Rome

Post by Nicolav »

k_numigl wrote:
Nicolav wrote: Some news about ram, torque and bios settings.
Few days ago I took a new ram to try: Kingston KHX16C9X3K2/8X
There are two modules of 4 GB each, the specs are similar to KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX tried by Linnofil.
Do they have a similar run in time?
As two individuals of the same species seem to have different properties often, can you check whether the two modules sound the same?
No, KTH9600B/4G have about 4 months of burn in whist the HX16C9X3K2/8X only one week. However, except the first day and some fluctuation over time, most components rarely show a radical change of musical performance ie from enough good to excellent.
For example, although fresh the KTH9600B/4G were already very good, and with time have become better but mostly in the sound.
I'm still remember my Akurate DS/0: very musical from the beginning but for the first 2 months a torture sound wise, very "digital" and harsh, almost unbearable. :)
LP12/RadikalM/Keel/Ekos SE1/Ekstatik/Urika II/Klimax System Hub/Klimax Exaktbox's/10 Solos/A242
Tractor Boy
Member
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: 2011-02-25 20:31
Location: Sweden

Post by Tractor Boy »

Having read this thread one thing hits me; nobody seems to have tried different network adapters?

I'm no network expert, but if different network cables can effect the performance of a DS then the network adapter is likely to have an even greater impact.
Hindsight is always 20/20
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 976
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

A bit of an update...

Post by David Neel »

My LSNAS has remained a work in progress for some time. Once I had got the case fan connected to the MB CPU fan slot, and the Linn power cord to bypass the Node 304's internal extension cable, it was performing well. As I have no other NAS to compare with, I took it to my dealer, where it couldn't connect to the network (see earlier post). So I still don't know how it compares.

I have now reverted to using the internal power cord extension, as the alternative is to remove the case top and collect dust. I tried ThomasOK's suggestion of the Audioquest right-angle adaptor (thanks!) but unfortunately there isn't even enough room inside the case for that.

After some re-wiring, the LSNAS is now outside the listening room. It has lost it's spot on the stone fireplace and is now on floorboards under the stairs. (And my wife is ecstatic that the modem, router, and associated cabling are now also hidden under the stairs!) To compensate for this, the network switch is now powered from the hifi spur rather than the domestic ringmain.

I may take a chance on some Kingston memory, and keep an eye out for a better case, but that will be it for now. I'm very pleased that I built this NAS rather than buy a readymade one, but I realise that keeping knowledge of the best components current is very difficult - I'm sure we all have busy lives.

Another challenge to spending time on the LSNAS is that I've replaced my Adikt with Charlie1's Klyde, and 85% of my music is on vinyl....
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: A bit of an update...

Post by ThomasOK »

David Neel wrote:Another challenge to spending time on the LSNAS is that I've replaced my Adikt with Charlie1's Klyde, and 85% of my music is on vinyl....
If you think that's difficult you should try an Akiva (relatively soon to be replaced by a Kandid) on the best LP12 I have yet heard with 95% of your music on vinyl!

Good to hear the update and that you are happy with the LS-NAS.

A little update on my situation. I just got word today that the Chinese case I ordered on the 19th is "out of stock" and I will be getting a refund. Not exactly very quick feedback. I have found one other seller of this same case so I have ordered it from them and we'll see how that goes. I'm really hoping I can get one as it appears to be the best design for our NAS project I have seen. I will report back on it either way.

I have received all the other parts necessary for the NAS including he 140mm fan that will fit this case so all I need is the blasted thing to put it in. I also have the Samsung DVD burner already installed in a nice external aluminum case with USB 2.0 and eSATA connections. The case seems quite sturdy and has an internal power supply with an IEC plug so I can use a Linn power cord on it as well. So I am also set up for ripping once I have the NAS together.
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 976
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

External Samsung drive

Post by David Neel »

I've also got a Samsung internal drive, but the way I connect it is to take off the case and wire it directly to the LSNAS via SATA cable, using the Seasonic power supply. I'm theorising that this should be an improvement on a small external power supply?
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: External Samsung drive

Post by ThomasOK »

David Neel wrote:I've also got a Samsung internal drive, but the way I connect it is to take off the case and wire it directly to the LSNAS via SATA cable, using the Seasonic power supply. I'm theorising that this should be an improvement on a small external power supply?
You may be right, I suppose if i get the time and want to be that...precise I can try it both ways.
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

Meanwhile I proceeded to a splendid SATA cable: Foxconn 1137 G10333-001. It has a red outer sleeve. It is directional. Two individuals of this species sound best with text from MoBo to SSD. Yes, it is the cable supplied with the I320. I checked it again after a long while using the Deltaco species, as in direct comparison to the ADDA throughput, the musicians, whether Jazz or classics, seemed to labour a bit continuously. Some energy was lacking, fun factor, also structure, and I was many times tempted to increase the volume therefore (I don’t, in order not to loose reference – 53. being my standard with A242). The open PC structure I still use allows for easy exchanges, so I thought why not give this cable a try. One direction is a bit harsh, but the other direction sounds best of everything up to date in this project. (Note: 192 kHz material only.) As you do own this cable anyway if you have a I320, check out yourself.

I can only recommend to use an open PC mechanic so you can easily try things. In the beginning I often hesitated swapping around components because of the effort involved. But you have to make up your own mind and test components in your specific application.

My Toshiba 1.5 GB Freeplay HDD, e.g., sounds different when connected via USB2, USB3, or with a direct SATA connection (I took it out of the external case).

Image

Image

Image
Oops, about 50 cm long (DIN A4 longside plus shortside).
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Well, now the fun begins. I finally received my case yesterday and the case story isn't finished yet. The first place I ordered the case from came back saying it was out of stock after almost three weeks but they have refunded my money. The only other place I found it listed for sale was a little more expensive but they did get it to me fairly quickly. However it came in with a couple of damaged and defective parts (and screws bouncing around inside the unit). I have started working with the case but will withhold any recomendation until I see how they handle the damaged parts. I will say that you should expect at least a bit of extra work with this case as only two of the four holes to attach the power supply were in the right place. I had to widen two of the holes to allow me to bolt on the PS.

So far, after a bit of work and a couple of mods, I have the power supply, fan and PSU mounted and the RAM installed. Hopefully tonight I can get the drives and wiring in place, Windows installed and start the unit burning in. For starters I will install the 600GB Intel 320 SSD and my 1TB Seagate ES HD so that I can compare the performance. I have a few different SATA cables (two came with the ASUS motherboard, some came the case and I bought two from MewEgg) so I can try them over time. I don't know if any are the Foxconns - I didn't get any with my SSD which was used.

By the way there is a listing on eBay for a new ASUS E45M1-I Deluxe motherboard. They are selling it for $159.00 each and have two available. They only ship to the US but here is the listing in case someone is looking for one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261214915904?ss ... 1423.l2649

I'll keep you posted on my progress.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

My LS-NAS is up and running and has been so for a few days. I must say it hasn't changed my opinion one bit that Windows is an abysmal mess - it has only reinforced it. A couple of examples: why can you just type the underlined letter to get to an option on some windows yet on another window (in the same program - the one to install Windows) you have to type "alt" plus the letter? And why did I have to search the web to be told that all I had to do to be able to install Windows on the drive was to delete the partition. The Windows "more details" didn't tell me that nor did the advanced options. I ended up spending several extra hours getting this all sorted out. Rant over (for now).

So this is my LS-NAS setup:


• Case: BZ06l aluminum Mini-ITX NAS case (no brand name from China)
• PSU: Seasonic Platinum 460FL 460W
• Motherboard: Asus E45M1-I DELUXE mini-ITX / AMD E-450 / HD 6320
• RAM: Kingston 2x4 GB DDR3 PC10600 1333MHz (KTH9600B/4G)
• Music storage: Intel SSD 320, 600 GB
• OS storage: same disk
• Additional storage: Seagate 1TB ES.2 HD
• SATA cable: 2 Rosewill from NewEgg 18" 3Gbps SATA II
• Cooling fan: Fractal Design Silent Series 140 mm
• Power cord: Linn Longwell
• OS: Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit) (OEM DVD)
• Mediaserver: Asset UPnP
• Anti-virus: AVG Anti-Virus Free Edition 2013
• Switch: Currently Apple Airport Extreme but also have Netgear GS108
• LAN cables: Recommended Belkin and MicroConnect (1-10M of each)

Also have the following for ripping:

• Drive: Samsung SH-224BB DVD drive
• Enclosure: Vantec NexStar DX Model NST-530SU USB 2.0 & eSATA
• eSATA Cable: Included "Serial ATA 26AWG E189529 AWM STYLE 2725 80°C 30V VW-1 VEGA TECH"
• Power cord: Linn
• Ripping software: tested EAC, db Poweramp, iTunes

So now that I have gotten past the Windoze hurdles and gotten everything installed I have had the unit running for several days and have ripped a few discs in so that I could start using it and testing a few things. Some of this likely belongs in the Optimum ripping solutions section but I will also comment on it a bit here as I feel it is relevant.

I did a bit of listening at the store but it wasn't completely conclusive as the network is not optimized and the rooms are still not completely set up. So I brought everything home this weekend (including the store demo ADS/1) so that I could get some listening in here. Not everything in the network is optimized here yet either (I haven't listened for the proper direction on the MicroConnect cable) but I am reasonably close. The ADS/1 is on the 3rd shelf of my Mimer rack, the LS-NAS is on the top shelf of a Quadraspire Midi 4 shelf rack (to be replaced by a Ygdrassil soon). Everything else is as normal: KK/2 into ATC SCM100ASLs all wired with Linn Silvers with original RCAs and Linn Longwell stock cables. I have yet to start experimenting with the internal SATA cables for position or version, nor have I ripped anything to the Seagate drive yet. Overall the unit is pretty quiet and the case is relatively solid. (I am supposed to be getting new top and front panels for the case to replace the damaged ones for which I only paid shipping (which I probably shouldn't have had to pay).

My listening tests today concentrated on determining the best way of ripping and the proper orientation of the case. This case is handy as far as that goes in that it comes with four 3M bumpon feet that you can stick on any side. However I decided to go with the tried and true and go a set of Linn big round rubber feet as used on the older Majik and Akurate units. I haven't stuck them on yet but just set the case on them which allowed me to position in on any side I wanted to. An additional advantage to this case is that any of the four long sides can be removed by taking out six screws, so access to the inside is quite good. By the way, while I haven't played around with different torques yet (all in good time) I did torque the board down with the same setting I use for most non-Klimax Linn boards of a touch over .4Nm and I also tightened the case bolts to .6Nm + 4 notches - the torque that works best on Linn cases and the Tundra (if I remember correctly).

In my listening I find that I agree with Linnofil and with Klaus. The NAS definitely sounds worse with the motherboard positioned vertically and I also found it more musical when the MB was upside down. With it on its side it sounded a bit forward and brash and the guitar and vocals don't "sing" as well. (I used a couple of cuts from "Heart Shaped World" by Chris Isaak for these tests.) With it right side up it was more tuneful and the brashness was gone but the bass was a bit "thuddy" and sluggish and the vocals sounded a touch compressed. With it upside down the flow was better with everything having good timing, the bass was more precise and everything was more tuneful. Vocals were more expressive and cymbals sounded more natural. Just the most musical presentation of all.

The other comparisons I did were of the way the music was ripped. All of this was ripped at the store with the NAS upside down on a Q4 rack with the ripping drive on the same shelf separated by a bit. Both units were fed by Linn Longwell cables with Hubbell plugs direct into the wall. Other cabling was as above. What I found out was quite interesting on the musical performance front. I ripped the entire Heart Shaped World disc 5 ways as follows:

db poweramp - FLAC
EAC - FLAC
iTunes - ALAC, converted to FLAC by db music converter
iTunes - ALAC
finally I did a second EAC - FLAC with the eSATA cable reversed to With Text to test the cable direction (as opposed to the Against Text I had randomly used for the other four rips).

I did rip a few other discs but only used EAC - FLAC with the cable Against Text on them so I haven't used them for testing yet.

The worst musically was the EAC With Text so this cable obviously sounds better Against Text. The second worst was the db poweramp rip. Both of these two definitely had parts that sounded a bit out of tune - especially on the track "Wicked Game" where the guitar is a good test for this - and both just had less enjoyable movement to them. In the middle was the iTunes rip converted to FLAC with a significantly more tuneful performance than either of the above and better timing of notes. As a matter of fact it was really close to the EAC Against Text rip, so close that when I did the comparison at the store I had a hard time telling them apart. Even at home I had to go back and forth a few times to establish my preference but it was more obvious on the "Wicked Game" track then "Heart Shaped World". Still, in my notes I gave the EAC AT rip a position of 2 and the ITunes converted FLAC a 2.2. However, the unquestioned most musical rip was the iTunes ripped to ALAC and played as an ALAC. It was simply more musical, more toe tapping, more in tune and more emotionally engaging (and "Wicked Game" is one of those tunes that, well reproduced, really gets me). Whenever I played that rip I just wanted to listen to the whole thing and several times I did, having to restart to do a proper A/B.

So there you have it, I find iTunes ripped to ALAC to make the most musical files I have found so far. While this was not as I expected I have to say it comes as a pleasant surprise. For one thing I have to agree that EAC is a bear to use and quite slow, at least on my setup. I noticed one of the tracks on a different disc I was ripping showed that it was ripping at 0.9x speed! (I supposed it might not have been in good condition - but still!) I did have EAC setup with the Linn recommendations and the additional suggestions from Nicolav. The fact that EAC couldn't find the metadata on most of the discs I ripped without me telling it to look ad GDDB, a two step process, didn't help its usability. Not to mention that iTunes is free unlike db poweramp or the necessary payment for GDDB on EAC if you want decent metadata. The downside to iTunes is that it appears I will have to reformat the artwork if I want Asset to send it to Kinsky. But that assumes I find Asset to be the most musical server. I plan to also try Minim server and Linn's Songbox to see how they do.

So some interesting information so far. I do plan on trying things like different internal SATA cables and different directions on them, different torques to find the best settings and ripping to the Seagate drive (once I figure out how to get at it - the control panel shows it there and mounted but I can't seem to get it to show up under "My Computer" - stupid Windows [I told you my end of rant was temporary!]). Of course, I also plan to compare this LS-NAS to the store ReadyNAS NV+ to see how they compare. A quick initial comparison at the store seemed to indicate the LS-NAS was better but not by as much as I was expecting. But again it needs more burn in time and some additional optimizing. Still it is definitely promising so far and a good learning experience.

I did also find it sounded a touch better with the keyboard and mouse unplugged.

As an additional note I have to say that while I consider these differences important musically they weren't huge, night and day differences. Indeed it took me a little while of listening to settle into hearing the differences easily. My theory is that, since I've been listening to nothing but analog for months on my home system, it took me some time and readjustment to wrap my head around this digital reproduction and ferret out the differences. It still just isn't as naturally musical as good analog (and since I have the best analog rig I've yet heard it has some serious competition) so I have to listen a bit to realign my expectations with the medium involved. In other words: "Long live vinyl!". That said I do have a number of pieces of music I really like that aren't available on vinyl and likely never will be. For that music it is nice being able to hear it more musically reproduced than I ever have before.

I note Linnofil hasn't been on the thread for a while - I hope we haven't chased him away or worn him out. It would be nice to hear any updates and comments he has. I also probably need to check into the Deltaco and Foxconn SATA cables.

I plan on taking some photos of the build when I open up the case to play around with the internal cables, etc. in a couple of weeks and will post them then. I'll also let everyone know how it goes with the replacement parts.
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

Thanks for your report, Thomas. First I agree there's nothing like playing records! I had hoped for a long time that the hires reissues of the famous 60s and 70s Jazz recordings would make this music available conveniently, but all I heard sounds inferiour to my records. Maybe the remix/restauration is overdone or the tapes are aging? A prominent example is Africa/Brass by Coltrane - advertised by Linn but bettered by the record. The title piece is indeed sensitive to loosing its musical meaning.

The main actual result I like to share is that for hires playing the mITX mainboard (e45 deluxe) seems not ideal. I switched from this to some older E2180 Pentium XP board which plays far superiour here. The result came out of a several week story.

Some weeks ago I prepared for a holiday in a french cabin, gite so to say, and I always take music with me when renting one. Previously this was a laptop, slim playing programme, RME audio interface, Majik brick and Kans. This developed to Prism Orpheus and Komponent104s with a MajikI of actual style. Only a day before starting, I discovered that the voluminous SonarX1 DAW I use for playing does not run nicely on any of my laptops/notebooks (3 were there). I could not get and install and test any other software, so I decided to take a LSNAS-PC in bits and pieces with me. E45, in this case, I320, fan, seasonic PSU etc.. All on one of these 4 mm alu plates, open, even without power switch. What struck me during these vacancy weeks was that I constantly switched to the external 1.5 TB 2.5'' HDD in favour against the I320. The rhythmic consistency was simply better, be it with classics or with jazz. Making more fun and sense.

Back home I started to bring my custom case plans for the mITX to a final state, but thought I should test a few recordings on I320, other HDDs, attached to various mainboards, before having the case made. Having gathered together a few recordings, surprisingly the mITX recordings did not win, but it was the I320 built into the XP machine I used for a long time. ASUS cheap PSU, vertical MoBo, Pentium E2180 etcetc..

OK, this was recording, I thought, but when this is better with the Pentium, could it be that playback can also win with this MoBo when I give it equal chances - i.e. horizontal MoBo, Seasonic PSU, I320 with directed SATA cable? I felt no big joy to disassemble this oldish machine, but overcame my lazyness and persuaded the machine to accept the I320. After replacing the ASUS PSU by the Seasonic, the sun really started to shine. I was still with the Foxconn Sata cables, as I liked them better than the Deltacos with the E2K. As music was already exeptionally good, moods did rise to test a few SATA cables, too, and, surprise again, the Deltacos won by far. I used Akasa Proslim (very nice cable optically and haptically, very flexible and slim), Foxconn standard red cable, and Deltacos. The Akasa was very laid back, softening everything, the Foxconn fast and harsh, but rythmically correct. The Deltaco fine and detailed, and with good timing. Obviously my previous preference for the Foxconn was due to the fact that it compensates for the basic 'softwashing' of the mITXs (the E45 more so than the E2K). These had always to be fine tuned to overcome as good as possible this basic character. In contrast to them, the Pentium board, with optimized additional parts, sounds much more effortless and natural. The sun is shining very high indeed.

This might be a result specific to hires music. The CD material might indeed benefit from the 'smoothing filter' the ITXs apply in comparison to this Pentium ensemble. In my application, playing over the ITXs looses much of the aspects one buys the hires material for.

The (better to say: my) problem now is, that this board is so outdated, that it does not have sufficient Sata connectors and also not sufficient power/speed to handle the mentioned DAW. I'll test a few alternatives.... I have to, as the oldish Pentium board with the I320 and Seasonic has set the standards higher than I can meet with the two ITXs used .

And the custom case project is postponed.

BR, Klaus
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Had a chance for a couple more comparisons/optimizations - nothing major. Once again I seemed to need to get acclimated to digital reproduction through a little A/B testing before the musical differences became readily apparent. This time I was listening to SATA cables and directions. I have two sets of two cables: 18" Rosewill from NewEgg with the following written on them: "E119932-T RU AWM 2725 80°C 30V Serial ATA Cable 26 AWG Copartner" and the cables that came with the ASUS MB which are about 24" long and read: "ASAP RU AVM E321011 Style 21149 26 AWG VW-1 80°C 30V Serial ATA 6G" with "SATA 6GB/s" on separate line. I had the Rosewill connected from when I built the LS-NAS to burn in. The ASAP came with the use motherboard so I assumed they already had some use but I can't be sure (although they weren't wrapped like they were unused). The Rosewills sounded more musical with a bit better flow when they were positioned With Text. However, the ASAP were definitely more musical and they also sounded more musical With Text. I felt that the differences between the two cables was actually bigger than the difference of reversing either of the cables.

This does cause a limitation, however, as the ASAP cables have 90° connectors on the end that goes to the motherboard when positioned With Text so I don't think you can use more than two cables when connected this way. That hasn't been a problem so far as I only have two devices installed: an Intel 320 SSD 600GB and a Seagate ES2 1TB HD. But I just received a 300GB Intel 320 SSD I found at a good price that I want to install for eventual full time use and also to cross check the performance of the 60GB and of possible mounting options. So I'm going to have to find a better cable solution.

A couple more notes: the replacement case parts came in and the case is now in nice shape. The new front panel is much better - no misaligned holes, proper threading on all the fan mount holes, and the only small scratches were on the inside surface. I am quite happy with it and I also reversed the position of the fan when I installed the new front so it now pulls in from the front instead of pushing out. I don't know if it is the better mounting or the reversed direction or both but the fan is now almost completely silent. The new top plate is also much better although it still came with a small scratch - but much smaller than the first one. Since the top is now the bottom, courtesy of four Linn Majik feet, I decided it wasn't worth pursuing further. I will give additional information on the case when I post photos. For now I'll just say that if this case was readily available from a normal supplier with proper packaging and instructions and proper quality control it would probably be the first choice for an NAS. As it is there are some caveats.

Also I had a customer over recently for some turntable stuff but we did briefly listen to the LS-NAS and AKDS/1 as he is planning to purchase one soon. I did a blind A/B with him a couple of times and he definitely preferred the iTunes ALAC rips to the EAC FLAC. He said they were clearer and more dynamic. This was before the above cable swaps so still the configuration I have used for most listening and ripping.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2297
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Post by Spannko »

Thomas,

Have you tried XLD on the Mac? It would be interesting to see if it's iTunes that produces a better rip, or the fact that it's being carried out on a Mac.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote:Thomas,

Have you tried XLD on the Mac? It would be interesting to see if it's iTunes that produces a better rip, or the fact that it's being carried out on a Mac.
I played with XLD some time back but haven't done musical comparisons between it and iTunes. However, these files were not ripped on a Mac - I used the latest Windows version of iTunes downloaded to the LS-NAS from Apple. I did the ripping directly on the NAS using the external Samsung drive connected via eSATA as I did with all the other rips. So any differences were related to software only as all the hardware was the same.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

A little more playing with and tweaking the LS-NAS this last weekend. This time I had a chance to listen to a couple different CAT6 cables, which I will report on in the appropriate place. I also ripped a number of additional discs and did some comparisons of ripping and also server software.

After ripping some more discs at home I did a couple more comparisons of EAC/FLAC and iTunes/ALAC. Once again the iTunes/ALAC files were a bit more musical and natural sounding. Then I decided to compare using Asset UPnP vs. Linn Songbox for the server. (I would have also tried Minim server but I still haven't figured how to get it working on this machine. Apparently installing it and having it show as running is not enough - I'll have to see if I can find the answer when I have time.) The server comparison was another surprise! The Linn Songbox was definitely more musical, natural and dynamic sounding than Asset and not by a small margin. I had Debbie come in and listen a bit blind as well. She heard the difference between the FLAC and ALAC files and preferred the ALAC but felt it was a small difference. She and I both felt the Songbox over the Asset was a significantly bigger improvement. So for now ALAC/Songbox is the way to go from my listening so far.

I will be getting a batch of Deltaco SATA cables within a few weeks, including an eSATA for connecting the ripping drive. So I should realize another performance boost once they are in and burned in. I also purchased a used Intel 320 300GB SSD. This is partially for additional storage but initially more for testing. I plan to use it to see how close the sound of the 600GB and the 300GB are, which will also help me verify they are both working well. But I also want to compare the sound of an SSD mounted in the HD bays with the plastic spacers and rubber mounts vs. directly to the casework. I will also pop one into my Mac Pro to see how much difference there is between it and the LS-NAS. As the MacPro was at about the same level as the NV+ when I compared them some time ago this would be interesting to know as well. I will report back when I have more info.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

A bit more on the LS-NAS. First, I did promise photos so here they are:

Image

Image

Image

The first photo is the inside from the top with the front panel off to show the fan mounting. The second is with the right side removed (with the front toward you). As you can see this gives access to the drive bays and the SATA ports as well as (somewhat) to the RAM. It does make it convenient to swap SATA cables, drives, etc.

The third is the front panel which, as you can see, looks just as good and sensible upside down (as I use it and it is in the photo) as it would right side up.

I said earlier I would talk a bit about the case once I got things sorted out. I'll start out saying there are some caveats, which I will cover, involved in using this case. But I will also say that, if this case were sold by a known manufacturer with the normal level of quality control, packaging, instructions, etc. and were available from the normal outlets like NewEgg and Tiger Direct, I would unhesitatingly recommend it as likely the best choice for the LS-NAS. There are several reasons for this. First, it is all pretty solid aluminum with the top and bottom 3mm thick, the sides 4mm thick and the front 8mm thick. Second, it handles all that we need to put in there including the standard ATX power supply mounted to the back panel, MiniATX MB, a 140mm fan and up to 7 drives (4-3.5" and 3-2.5"). Third, it is very quiet even with the fan on the front panel. Fourth, it comes with big 3M stick-on feet (although I used Linn feet) so you can decide which side you want to be the top. (I have found Klaus recommendation to have the MB horizontal but upside down to be most musical.)

So it really does have some ideal qualities. In addition you have the option of mounting SSDs either in the drive bays with 3.5" adapters and the rubber isolated plastic rails or directly to the aluminum on the right side panel (2) and the top cross brace (1). I haven't tested the mounting options yet but hope to do so in the future.

Now to the caveats. One, I had to order this direct from Hong Kong through one of only two companies that sells it to the US and only one was actually able to supply it. Two, the packaging was abysmal and not enough to protect it properly - one piece of cardboard tightly wrapped around the case and taped up with no padding. In my case the front and top panels were damaged. Three, the quality control is poor. My first front panel had a few unevenly drilled ventilation holes and one of the mounting holes for the fan was not properly made (too big and no threads). My first top plate had a long, deep scratch on it that appeared to have been there before it was packed. Also the holes on the back panel for mounting the PS unit were not all in the right place - I had to drill two of them into an oblong shape to fit the PS. Four, although it came with more plastic rails and screws than you could possibly use, it came with no instructions - not even how the power switch and light should be connected (I found a photo online that allowed me to figure it out).

So this isn't just a quick and easy, buy it and you're good to go, case. I was able to have the seller send me replacement front and top panels but I did have to pay additional shipping of $28US. The front had all the holes properly aligned and the right mounting holes for the fan. It did have a few scratches but they were all on the inside so I am happy with it. The top was better but still had a scratch in it although it looked like it might have happened at a customs inspection. As the scratch was much smaller and shallower than the original, and also as the top panel is the bottom panel the way I am using it, I decided it wasn't worth getting another replacement. But, again, with a little work I was able to make a really fine LS-NASA with it and each panel can be removed from the framework separately so you can access whatever part of the unit you need to.

If after reading all this you are interested in getting one of these you can PM me and I will give you the info on where to get it. I won't post it here as I don't want to give it a general endorsement. I should mention that it cost me about $165US including shipping plus the $28 for the shipping on the replacements so at $193US total it certainly isn't the least expensive option. But I am pleased with its solidity and flexibility now that I have everything straightened out.

I did a few more listening tests yesterday, some of which were for the CAT6 cables which I covered under the LAN cable thread. The only other thing I tested was unplugging things that I had hooked up to the server to rip a few more CDs. It was interesting how every little thing had a musical effect and that things improved as I unplugged things. It was also interesting the amount of difference. While unplugging the USB mouse and the HDMI monitor made fairly small improvements, unplugging the keyboard plugged into the regular keyboard port made a substantial improvement and unplugging the eSATA to the CD drive improved things as well.

Still haven't been able to get Minim Server running despite re-downloading both it and 64bit Java and despite the fact it seems to think it is working. If I can't figure it out soon I may give up as it didn't sound as musical as Songbox at Salty Dog's house anyway. More to come when I have more cables and can do more tests.
k_numigl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 348
Joined: 2008-01-30 12:23
Location: Friesland

Post by k_numigl »

Thanks Thomas, this looks really fine. I'm impressed by the method to store the (for our application) excessively long PSU cables. Two comments: It seems as if you use Deltaco Sata cables, 30 cm. Is that correct? And with respect to the PSU: Isn't this mounted the wrong way up when the mITX is upside down? I've not tested whether it makes any effect (sonically or heat management related) when it is mounted not the way the manual urges you to mount it, but I understand the easier heat escape when it is mounted correctly.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Thanks for the comments Klaus. The SATA cables are not the Deltaco yet. As I originally couldn't get them over here I bought a couple of Rosewill 18" SATA cables from Newegg (their house brand) along with some other stuff I was buying there. As they were cheap and I was already paying shipping, and also since they looked somewhat like the Deltacos, I figured it would at least give me something to try out. Sinc that photo I have replaced them with the SATA cables that came with the Asus MB and these are certainly superior. As I'm sure those have been tried by others, as they come with the MB, I will be getting a batch of the internal Deltacos soon along with a 50cm eSata for the ripping drive. Fredrik was very kind in sourcing these for me (despite a fair bit of difficulty finding someone who actually had them in stock) and will be sending them to me soon.

You have a good eye for detail (as if we didn't already know that). Yes, when the unit is in normal position with the MB upside down the PSU is also upside down compared to the instructions. Whether this has a musical effect I can't say as I haven't tested it. There is a possibility I can do a test but it is not simple and may have to wait. I can say the whole unit sounds better upside down so if it does have an effect it doesn't outweigh the MBs preference. In reading the manual before installation the directions about putting it the proper side up were all about proper ventilation since it is passively cooled. I felt that I would likely be OK for two reasons: 1) the entire NAS is cooled by the 140mm fan pulling in air from the front and venting it out the back so it is getting a fair bit of cooling. 2) I believe in our usage we are only using a fraction of the PSUs capacity. I believe my theory is correct as the metal around the PSU is cool to the touch running 24/7 and you can feel the air exiting through the vents of the PSU. So as long as there is no musical degradation the PSU works fine this way.

Looking at it just now there are four more holes for mounting so I could mount it the other way if I wanted to. Of course, that likely means re-drilling a couple of those holes as well to have the unit fit. I may put that off for a while and at least wait until I have all the right cables before I go play around with it.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Doing some more playing around with the network and LS-NAS this weekend. I mainly planned on testing my newly purchased GS108T-200 compared to a GS108v2 I had borrowed from the store. I had run in the GS108T for a week and found it was indeed a bit better than the GS108v2, although not a big difference. I also found, as others have that the AC adapter sounds better plugged in one way than the other (as luck would have it I started out with it plugged in the wrong way). There was also a musical difference between the two power adaptors which, even though they look identical and have the same specs, do have different part numbers. It was really nice finding the music getting more absorbing with each improvement here.

More related to the NAS itself, I started out with the monitor, keyboard and mouse plugged into it as I had been organizing some stuff on it. So I did A/B comparisons as I unplugged items. First the monitor from the HDMI port which made a small but worthwhile improvement, then the USB mouse which made a bigger improvement and finally the keyboard from the keyboard port which made the biggest improvement of all. I did the tests a couple of times to be sure but came to the same conclusions: unplugging these devices all made the LS-NAS more musical with the keyboard making the biggest improvement and the monitor the smallest. It was quite interesting how each of these units can effect the musical performance of the NAS and even more how much more enjoyable the music became as all of them were unplugged. This stuff really works and today I made up a decent size playlist and put it into random mode and just listened to it for hours - sometimes while I was doing other things like cooking and sometimes just sitting down and listening. (This is how I have tended to use DS devices mostly so far - it is like having a radio station I programmed with the music I like and if I don't want to hear a particular track I just skip to the next one.) There are definitely pieces of music that are not available on vinyl that I have never heard sound so impressive, musical and just fun before. It makes me look forward to the further improvements coming to the LS-NAS.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4371
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by ThomasOK »

Just wondering if anybody has tried using BlueTooth keyboard or mouse with the LS-NAS. Does having these items communicating to the LS-NAS change performance? As I know the unit sounds better with the keyboard and mouse unplugged it made me wonder if the wireless connection of those devices would alleviate the problem. Anybody tried this?
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Post by Music Lover »

I'm using a wireless keyboard/inbuilt mouse from Logitech (K400r) with USB wireless connector.
Minor performance difference so the USB connector is always inserted in the LS-NAS.
It's all about musical understanding!
User avatar
Erik
Active member
Active member
Posts: 217
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:14
Location: Sweden

Post by Erik »

I use Teamviwer http://www.teamviewer.com to control the LS-NAS from my Mac.
Post Reply