The Linnofil Super NAS!

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Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-19 21:33

Nicolav wrote:Unfortunately I have to confirm that my Intel 320 160GB is not good as my ES.2 and frankly I do not understand why.
If the Intel 320 isn't a lot better than the ES.2, then there is something wrong with the 320! Are you sure it is a 320? Check if the BIOS is reporting that it's a 320. If it's a Intel 330, then all this makes sense!
Nicolav wrote:despite the utility Intel ssd toolbox shows a perfect state of health, it may be that the damage is felt only listening
Yes, the musical performance is very seldom in the HW diagnostics SW...
Nicolav wrote:So I ask you, perhaps performing a secure erase may improve the performance?
Why not test? You have nothing to loose. A few more write cycles on the cells does'nt matter, since you probably have to sell it anyway...
Nicolav wrote:The only thing that could possibly ruin the performance of SSD is its mounting inside the case.
I have used the 320 just like you, laying around anywhere in the case. No problem! So the problem is elsewhere.

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Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-19 22:01

cortina wrote:I have just ordered the parts so will take some time to get it up and running.
Great, please let us know how it goes. Did you manage to get a Mini-ITX MB or did you go for the mATX MB? Case?
cortina wrote:I will think about Linux. An issue is that I have very limited experience with it, but figured a NAS would perhaps be a good learning project. If anyone has tested already (or is interested to do so), it would be great. Would be a good motivation knowing it would be an improvement :)
I also have very limited experience. I have access to a PC with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS and the OS is pretty nice actually. I also got a Raspberry Pi for Christmas, so some more Linux skills would be nice! :-) Ideally I would like to test running Minimserver on the Raspberry Pi with the FLAC files on a Intel 320 in a USB case. Right now I have only tested it with Raspbmc. It would be a great thing to have with me when I do occasional install work. (If it's any good.)
cortina wrote:Will order a 3m of same/some kind then.
Great, let us know what you find out. Maybe in a separate thread. There is a thread about ethernet cables somewhere here on the forum. Don't forget to check direction.

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Re: Puzzled

Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-19 22:29

David Neel wrote:Last weekend I commented on the improvements which several details had made to my LSNAS - and at the beginning the LSNAS had outperformed my laptop. I then reconnected the fan, and the power cord via the internal extension, and left it to run on mute for five days.
Is this a temporary setup for "unsuperviced" on time? If this is how you use the NAS then it is important that you connect the fan to the CPU pin header. But I have mentioned this earlier in the thread.
David Neel wrote:Expecting another improvement, something was not right when I listened again - the detail was there, but the music wasn't right. Retesting against the laptop - very close indeed, much closer than I remember from the first test before I started optimising the LSNAS.
Did you check if you have all the HW and SW in the same state as before?
David Neel wrote:Have I been imagining the improvements I've commented on, or is the burn-in taking a strange turn? The system is now on mute to burn-in more until next weekend when I get back home.
I don't think you are imagining anything. But the PSU has it's UPS and downs during burn in. If it's not better next time you can start looking into it. But I wouldn't worry to much, I'm sure it's going to turn around again.

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Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-19 23:12

cortina wrote:As I have my only Internet access/router rather far away from the stereo (in another room), cable connection between the router and the NAS would be quit ugly. So I would like to avoid it if at all possible.

Is it possible to use the wireless (bridge?) functionality of the ASUS E45M1-I Deluxe motherboard and still connect to the DS through ethernet cable (via a switch if advantageous?) without negative impact?
I don't know, but it does sound possible. As long as only control goes via wireless you could be fine. It's certainly the most practical solution. I think a switch is advisable, use the blue (metal boxed) Netgear GS105/108. Tests (by one swedish LS NAS user) have indicated that this is the best way to go. Take care in placing the switch and the NAS.
cortina wrote:Or shall I use a repeater (like e.g. Netgear WN2000RPT) or would a repeater make browsing the NAS content any slower?
I'm afraid I don't know this either! But I do know that my Netgear WN2000RPT was very unstable and didn't have a good reception. It wasn't used for DS or music, so I don't know if it's any good or bad in a DS system. But I know it's a really bad product! Powerline devices maybe?
cortina wrote:What would be the best way to connect the NAS to a distant router to be able to control it?
Another option would be to add another wireless router to your DS network and have it on a separate LAN, as Music Lover and Nicolav have their systems.

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Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-19 23:26

k_numigl wrote:My own E45 deluxe mobo is unfortunately defective (returned today).
Bad Luck! Since they are hard to come by now it's really unfortunate.
k_numigl wrote:I'm not sure whether to hunt for the last ones of this old style, or to better wait a couple of days for the new successor E2KM1-I Deluxe (with a slightly faster CPU but a very similar overall PCB design).
Nobody knows! The graphics are different, the CPU, the SATA controller, the circuit board etc is new. So a lot can have happened, working both way of course! It could be better or worse. I would like to test it! I think that ideally this new MB should be tested by a present owner of a LS NAS. At least by someone who can make a comparison directly with another LS NAS. This would give us more reliable information.
k_numigl wrote:The new board was announced to be available mid Feb, but ,as always, it is now scheduled to arrive later at 5. March at most dealers.
I guess a mATX MB with a new case isn't interesting? That can be ordered right now!

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Re: Puzzled

Post by David Neel » 2013-02-19 23:54

Linnofil wrote:
David Neel wrote:Last weekend I commented on the improvements which several details had made to my LSNAS - and at the beginning the LSNAS had outperformed my laptop. I then reconnected the fan, and the power cord via the internal extension, and left it to run on mute for five days.
Is this a temporary setup for "unsuperviced" on time? If this is how you use the NAS then it is important that you connect the fan to the CPU pin header. But I have mentioned this earlier in the thread.
Yes, this is a temporary setup. But, disconnecting the fans made only a very small difference, and the fan connectors supplied don't seem to be right to connect to the motherboard.

Also, I reported a small gain with moving the power cord from domestic ring main to hifi spur, and then a bigger gain by eliminating the internal extension cord. Moving the power cord had left it running across one speaker cable, which I quickly rectified when I spotted it, but this was after the elimination of the internal cord. I now realise I should have retested the move from domestic to hifi sockets, as that might have been the bigger change, rather than removing the internal cord.

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Re: Puzzled

Post by David Neel » 2013-02-20 00:07

Linnofil wrote:
David Neel wrote:Expecting another improvement, something was not right when I listened again - the detail was there, but the music wasn't right. Retesting against the laptop - very close indeed, much closer than I remember from the first test before I started optimising the LSNAS.
Did you check if you have all the HW and SW in the same state as before?
After I posted, I shut down my laptop and the music stopped playing. Since I had selected the playlist from the LSNAS which was still running, this was strange. I then worked out that I had been trying to compare tracks from different servers, but that the control point had been adding tracks WITHOUT changing servers - hence my difficulty in telling them apart! This invalidates my findings that the LSNAS was no better than the laptop, BUT does not explain why the music was lost.

Further trials when I get home this weekend, and I have arranged to take the LSNAS to my Linn dealer in three weeks' time, to compare against their NAS rather than my laptop. That should be interesting!
Last edited by David Neel on 2013-02-22 20:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-02-20 09:37

Linnofil wrote: I think a switch is advisable, use the blue (metal boxed) Netgear GS105/108. Tests (by one swedish LS NAS user) have indicated that this is the best way to go.
Answer moved here
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 5206#15206
Last edited by Music Lover on 2013-02-20 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Puzzled

Post by Music Lover » 2013-02-20 09:45

David Neel wrote: Further trials when I get home this weekend, and I have arranged to take the LSNAS to my Linn dealer in three weeks' time, to compare against their NAS rather than my laptop. That should be interesting!
It would!

But a warning. if the dealer DS-network and/or HIFI installation isn't well tuned, the difference going to be reduced or even removed.
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Post by Music Lover » 2013-02-20 10:13

Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Unfortunately I have to confirm that my Intel 320 160GB is not good as my ES.2 and frankly I do not understand why.
If the Intel 320 isn't a lot better than the ES.2, then there is something wrong with the 320!
+1
Read all his posts carefully as Linnofil experiences mimics mine regarding Intel SSD.

Didn't know you bought a previously used SSD. I would NOT recommend this. (ESD damage, previously user changed bios, upgraded the firmware etc)
Get a brand new one. I have 4*320 and one X25, all of them considerable better than ES.2.
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Post by paolo » 2013-02-20 10:49

Music Lover wrote: Tried many different Netgear models (FS and GS-series) and the best has always been the 8 port models.
I haven't tested switches the last 3-4 years so it would be interesting if anyone could check again.
Back then, GS was the better of them. So please test GS108 vs other alternatives and get back. (note the GS series have been modified over the years)
I agree with your findings. I've tried many Netgear switches and the best are 8 port gigabit metal chassis models. Old blue GS108E was my choice until last year when I tried some new models and the managed grey GS108T-200 was then the winner. It was not a big difference so it may well be just variations between different samples.

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-02-20 12:01

Last edited by Music Lover on 2013-02-20 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lejonklou » 2013-02-20 12:23

Music Lover wrote:Interesting, I suggest the mod starting a new thread and moving this discussion to that.
Then you can list all switches you tried, ok?
(likely with the better signal from LS NAS the evaluation of switches and cables etc going to be easier)
There are two old threads containing important information on switches:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=586
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1440

In the version of phpBB that this forum is built on, there is no possibility to merge threads. You can split one thread in two, but you can't make two threads become one. So I'm in doubt whether we should split the above comments and create a third thread about switches...

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Post by Music Lover » 2013-02-20 13:32

ok, I moved the posts instead...see above.
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Post by k_numigl » 2013-02-20 16:13

Linnofil wrote: (E2kM1-I) It could be better or worse. I would like to test it!
I'd indeed like to stick with a mITX if it sounds comparable to what is top now. The main advantage for me is that I can place it vertically or horizontally within reasonable space. Extension boards are superfluous, so this is not an argument for a mATX. (The Asus E450 pro is out of stock here.)

When browsing through the possible solutions, I wondered whether other seemingly similar AMD based boards using a E350 or C60 have ever been tested.

(The Asus C60M1-I is still available (passive cooling, 6 Sata connections), also the ASRock E350M1 seems eventually worth a try.)

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Post by Nicolav » 2013-02-20 20:02

Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Unfortunately I have to confirm that my Intel 320 160GB is not good as my ES.2 and frankly I do not understand why.
If the Intel 320 isn't a lot better than the ES.2, then there is something wrong with the 320! Are you sure it is a 320? Check if the BIOS is reporting that it's a 320. If it's a Intel 330, then all this makes sense!
Nicolav wrote:despite the utility Intel ssd toolbox shows a perfect state of health, it may be that the damage is felt only listening
Yes, the musical performance is very seldom in the HW diagnostics SW...
Nicolav wrote:So I ask you, perhaps performing a secure erase may improve the performance?
Why not test? You have nothing to loose. A few more write cycles on the cells does'nt matter, since you probably have to sell it anyway...
Nicolav wrote:The only thing that could possibly ruin the performance of SSD is its mounting inside the case.
I have used the 320 just like you, laying around anywhere in the case. No problem! So the problem is elsewhere.
Linnofil, thanks for the answers.
The ssd is a 320 without doubt.
There is a chance that your 320 and my have different firmware. If so, perhaps it could explain the different performance.
Mine have the latest 4PC10362 fw, what's yours Linnofil and Music Lover?
When you bought them?
Have you noticed a change in performance during the burn in?
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Post by k_numigl » 2013-02-21 12:44

My 120 GB SSD was supplied with 362 as well. Klaus

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Post by Nicolav » 2013-02-21 13:24

k_numigl wrote:My 120 GB SSD was supplied with 362 as well. Klaus
Hi Klaus, how perform your 320 musically wise?
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Post by Nicolav » 2013-02-22 18:43

I'm trying the individual ports on the mobo sata.
Swapping sata between ES.2 and 320 make 320 sound a little better and ES.2 a little worse. But relative difference remain the same.
So the problem with musical performance of my 320 is still here...
The interesting things are that sata port have different performance.
I just have to decide what is the best.
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Re: Puzzled

Post by David Neel » 2013-02-22 20:32

David Neel wrote:
Linnofil wrote:
David Neel wrote:Expecting another improvement, something was not right when I listened again - the detail was there, but the music wasn't right. Retesting against the laptop - very close indeed, much closer than I remember from the first test before I started optimising the LSNAS.
Did you check if you have all the HW and SW in the same state as before?
After I posted, I shut down my laptop and the music stopped playing. Since I had selected the playlist from the LSNAS which was still running, this was strange. I then worked out that I had been trying to compare tracks from different servers, but that the control point had been adding tracks WITHOUT changing servers - hence my difficulty in telling them apart! This invalidates my findings that the LSNAS was no better than the laptop, BUT does not explain why the music was lost.

Further trials when I get home this weekend, and I have arranged to take the LSNAS to my Linn dealer in three weeks' time, to compare against their NAS rather than my laptop. That should be interesting!
All is well. Last weekend's poor performance has gone. And the music has come back, largely due to taking off the Node 304 case and removing the internal extension power cord.

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Re: Puzzled

Post by David Neel » 2013-02-22 20:34

David Neel wrote:
Linnofil wrote:
David Neel wrote:Last weekend I commented on the improvements which several details had made to my LSNAS - and at the beginning the LSNAS had outperformed my laptop. I then reconnected the fan, and the power cord via the internal extension, and left it to run on mute for five days.
Is this a temporary setup for "unsuperviced" on time? If this is how you use the NAS then it is important that you connect the fan to the CPU pin header. But I have mentioned this earlier in the thread.
Yes, this is a temporary setup. But, disconnecting the fans made only a very small difference, and the fan connectors supplied don't seem to be right to connect to the motherboard.

Also, I reported a small gain with moving the power cord from domestic ring main to hifi spur, and then a bigger gain by eliminating the internal extension cord. Moving the power cord had left it running across one speaker cable, which I quickly rectified when I spotted it, but this was after the elimination of the internal cord. I now realise I should have retested the move from domestic to hifi sockets, as that might have been the bigger change, rather than removing the internal cord.
Confirmed: disconnecting the fans makes a small difference. Eliminating the internal power extension cord makes a big difference. Haven't retested the power sockets (domestic vs hifi) as too busy enjoying music again!

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Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-22 23:27

Nicolav wrote:There is a chance that your 320 and my have different firmware. If so, perhaps it could explain the different performance.
Mine have the latest 4PC10362 fw, what's yours
I now have 5 Intel 320 SSD's. I have at least two different FW:

120 GB with 4PC10362
120 GB with 4PC10302
160 GB with 4PC10362
600 GB with 4PC10302

I also have just bought a new 120 GB for backup and for use with my Raspberry Pi. (If I can get that going...) It's unopened so I dont now the FW for that one.
Nicolav wrote:When you bought them?
All during 2012, apart from the latest 120 GB. But, I bought them used, so they are probably a bit older.
Nicolav wrote:Have you noticed a change in performance during the burn in?
No, since I bought them used.

I have tested the individual SSD's and all I can say is that they all sound very good. They are about the same performance, apart from the 600 GB that sounds a little bit better. But I haven't tried the different SATA ports yet, so it's a bit inconclusive.

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Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-22 23:57

k_numigl wrote:I wondered whether other seemingly similar AMD based boards using a E350 or C60 have ever been tested.

(The Asus C60M1-I is still available (passive cooling, 6 Sata connections), also the seems eventually worth a try.)
I haven't tested any of them, so they could actually be even better! I think it would be interesting if you would buy one of them, but you need to test against a regular E45M-1 LS NAS with the same spec to be sure of how good it is. I would definetly go for the Asus C60M1 if I where you and took my chances.

It's also a lot cheaper to take a chance on this than to do it with the new MB. In Sweden the C60 is just $102/€77. All other parts fit a newer MB so you would just waste the €77. In relation to a Linn DS that's peanuts!

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Re: Puzzled

Post by Linnofil » 2013-02-23 00:10

David Neel wrote:All is well. Last weekend's poor performance has gone. And the music has come back, largely due to taking off the Node 304 case and removing the internal extension power cord.
Good news! :-D It's always a good feeling to discover that the music is back at the right level.
David Neel wrote:disconnecting the fans makes a small difference. Eliminating the internal power extension cord makes a big difference. Haven't retested the power sockets (domestic vs hifi) as too busy enjoying music again!
It is weird that disconnecting the fan makes a positive difference. For me the fan improves the performance (when connected correctly). It must be your fan that isn't any good. How do the other Node 304 builders experience this? How is it for other LS NAS owners?

I hope you can get that extension cord issue fixed somehow.

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Re: Puzzled

Post by David Neel » 2013-02-23 10:38

Linnofil wrote: It is weird that disconnecting the fan makes a positive difference. For me the fan improves the performance (when connected correctly). It must be your fan that isn't any good. How do the other Node 304 builders experience this? How is it for other LS NAS owners?

I hope you can get that extension cord issue fixed somehow.
The Node 304 fans are connected to the case's own fan controller. Unless I'm being more stupid than usual (not impossible after last week's server mixups!) only one of the connector sockets can fit the motherboard pins, but I will try this with the rear fan. Edit: tried it with the rear fan, but now the fan spins at full speed and this is noisy (the case controller can turn it down so that it is quiet). Further edit: now connected to the CPU fan pins, not the CHA fan pins - noise is reduced. Final edit: it is a little more musical too!

As for the extension cord, this will be fixed when I buy a new case, but no hurry. In the meantime, I'll leave the cover off the case while it's in use.

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