The Linnofil Super NAS!

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Re: RAM tests

Post by Nicolav »

Linnofil wrote:I have now bought some RAM for testing. My local store didn't have the same RAM as Nicolav uses, but I decided to try some other Kingston RAM, Kingston ValueRAM 4GB DDR3 1333MHz Non-ECC CL9 DIMM (KVR1333D3N9/4G) they only had one in stock, so I bought a single 4 GB. 
I also bought 8GB (2x4GB) of, Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB DDR3 PC-12800 1600MHz CL9 XMP (KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX)

When I tested mATX vs. Mini-ITX I now remember that I also had different RAM. At that time I didn't know about RAM differences, so I forgot they where not the same. So I decided to get that RAM to. So I now have got a single 4GB of Corsair CL9 1600Mhz VENGEANCE LP (CML8GX3M2A1600C9B)

I have not had the time to test this yet, but I thought I would let you know that I'm about to test these RAM's. So if someone else are doing RAM testing on their LS NAS, they don't have to buy the same. At least not yet. :-)

As soon as I have tested, I will let you know. 
Great.
I look forward to know the result of your test!
Last edited by Nicolav on 2013-02-14 08:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Nicolav »

Music Lover wrote:
Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Windows fetaures is a set of programs included in windows:
There are some screenshot Image and Image

Unfortunately, I found that the more the OS is clean, the better it sounds!
Thanks for clearing that out. I wonder if there is any SW that actually makes the LS NAS better? There may be an optimum "load" on the LS NAS that makes it perfect. But it looks like the less load, the better it is.
This I have to test, thanks for the info!

Nicolav, did you test both these different scenarios?
1/ disable the programs (= still installed but not running)
2/ remove the programs?

If you rate the performance differences in your LS-NAS, different RAM, different SATA cables/direction, programs running/not running - it would be interesting.

For me:
tuned NV+ with HDD--> tuned NV+ with Intel SSD (big) --> LS NAS using inbuilt PSU (huge) --> LS NAS with Platinum PSU (huge)
Power cords, placement on rack and SATAcables (minor but still clearly noticeable)
Is difficult to summarize but I try.
For me, LSNAS with all programs installed included MSE, A-data ram, Seasonic platinum psu, Seagate Barracuda ES.2 1 TB: is farly better than Readynas NV+ optimized (fan, ram) + Seagate Constellation ES 2 TB.
LSNAS without av and programs even a bit better that NV+.
With Kingston ram dramatically and vastly better than NV+!
Please report your impression with Kingston ram.
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Music Lover »

Music Lover wrote:
Linnofil wrote:I have now bought some RAM for testing. My local store didn't have the same RAM as Nicolav uses
I have located, what I think (se below), same RAM as Nicolav.
I just bought it and when delivered I can get the RAM to you so you can test it together with the best of your RAMs.
We can then do the opposite using my NAS. (as we have different motherboards it may be a difference)

Kingston 4GB DDR3 PC10600 1333MHz (KTH9600B/4G) (HP)
ok, Kingston is better. Not dramatic, but clearly better.
And I got some of the missing bass and dynamics back :-)
Going to let it burn in and then retest.

thanks Nicolav for the suggestion testing different RAMs, this is EXACTLY why this forum is so great!!!
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Music Lover »

Music Lover wrote:
ok, Kingston is better. Not dramatic, but clearly better.
And I got some of the missing bass and dynamics back :-)
Going to let it burn in and then retest.
One day burn in,big improvement! Nice, great stuff this!

It's now clear that the RAM impact the performance quite a bit.
It's also clear that the performance change with burn in making testing a challenge.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Linnofil »

Linnofil wrote:I have now bought some RAM for testing.
...
As soon as I have tested, I will let you know.
Nicolav wrote:Great.
I look forward to know the result of your test!
Results of my tests (All done with a single 4GB RAM stick in the black (best) outer RAM socket.):
1: Best was the well (1 year) burned in "Corsair CL9 1600Mhz VENGEANCE LP (CML8GX3M2A1600C9B)"
2: Second best was the brand new "Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB DDR3 PC-12800 1600MHz CL9 XMP (KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX)".
3: Number three was the also very well burned in A-Data (as in the LS NAS spec, used in my LS NAS).
4: Worst, by some margin, was the "Kingston ValueRAM 4GB DDR3 1333MHz Non-ECC CL9 DIMM (KVR1333D3N9/4G)".

The Corsair had a much better sound than the Kingston Hyper X. Both where very different in their presentation. The Hyper X was very "Rock 'n' Roll" with some distorsion and a lot of "live feeling". The Corsair was smooth, nice and slightly more musical. Since there is a burn in effect for the RAM's I decided to stick with 8 GB (2x4GB) of the KIngston Hyper X. I think the Hyper-X might very well pass the Corsairs after burn in, they are pretty close (musically) as it is now.

As I mentioned earlier I tested mATX with A-Data vs. Mini-ITX with the Corsair RAM. The Corsair I tested now where (one of) the exact same RAM sticks. But I think that the difference between the mATX with Win7Pro and the Mini-ITX with Win7HP was bigger than the difference between the RAM. So I still think the Mini-ITX with Win7HP is the right choice. Since the difference is smaller now and most of it likely due to the different OS I think it's safe to go with the mATX board. I'm VERY happy with it.
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Re: RAM tests

Post by k_numigl »

Linnofil wrote:I decided to stick with 8 GB (2x4GB) of the KIngston Hyper X. I think the Hyper-X might very well pass the Corsairs after burn in, they are pretty close (musically) as it is now.
Did you use the Kingston spec of 1.65 V, or did you use 1.5 V? Behaviour seems to alter a bit with voltage:
http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f1 ... 74778.html

My own LSNASPC is growing: PSU arrived and so everything needed is at hand, but I coudn't get past the BIOS update yet. Before the PSU arrived, I had the impression that the LianLi Q08 is about 4 to 5 cm too big in every dimension, but the space is needed badly to store the surplus cable length of the P-460.
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Post by cortina »

Nicolav wrote:
Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Uninstalled all programs including feature windows: there was a further improvement.
What is "feature windows"? Where there any special SW that did a bigger difference than the others"? I ask because I have a feeling that Linn Konfig (with MS .net) didn't do my NAS any god. The NAS got worse the same night I installed Konfig, but this was during some other changes, so I'm not 100% sure of what it was. I have yet to uninstall it. Maybe this weekend I'll have the time to try it.
Windows fetaures is a set of programs included in windows: There are some screenshot Image and Image
Unfortunately, I found that the more the OS is clean, the better it sounds!

Hi,

I am new to DS and will build a Linnofil NAS.

Is it possible to use Linux Twonky? Would save a Windows license, and as a cleaner windows installation improved sound, perhaps Linux could too?

Also need an ethernet cable to the DS. Which is the current recommendation? Is the shorter the better a good rule or irrelevant?
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Post by Linnofil »

cortina wrote:I am new to DS and will build a Linnofil NAS.
Great, welcome to the LS NAS community! The more we are the better it will get.
cortina wrote:Is it possible to use Linux Twonky? Would save a Windows license, and as a cleaner windows installation improved sound, perhaps Linux could too?
I really don't know. This has not been tested, to my knowledge. I did try a Linux PC (Ubuntu 12.04 LTS) that wasn't really any good. But it was not a LS NAS or optimized in any way, so that really is not relevant. But still it put me of Linux slightly anyway. This can be very wrong, so it would be very good if you or someone else could test this. Win 7 can be used for up to four months without registring the SW. So that could be an option for you. Try Win 7/Asset and let the LS NAS burn in for a month or two before installing a Linux version with Twonky and then compare both, would be very interesting!
cortina wrote:Also need an ethernet cable to the DS. Which is the current recommendation? Is the shorter the better a good rule or irrelevant?
Three meters or longer is usually the best. Even if units are close to each other, use this length. I don't know what is best to use right now. It used to be the Microconnect Cat6 shielded halogen free cable. I don't know if that is avaliable where you live.
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Post by cortina »

Thanks!
I have just ordered the parts so will take some time to get it up and running. I will think about Linux. An issue is that I have very limited experience with it, but figured a NAS would perhaps be a good learning project. If anyone has tested already (or is interested to do so), it would be great. Would be a good motivation knowing it would be an improvement :)

Will order a 3m of same/some kind then. Thank you!
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Music Lover »

Linnofil wrote: Results of my tests (All done with a single 4GB RAM stick in the black (best) outer RAM socket.):
1: Best was the well (1 year) burned in "Corsair CL9 1600Mhz VENGEANCE LP (CML8GX3M2A1600C9B)"
2: Second best was the brand new "Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB DDR3 PC-12800 1600MHz CL9 XMP (KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX)".
3: Number three was the also very well burned in A-Data (as in the LS NAS spec, used in my LS NAS).
4: Worst, by some margin, was the "Kingston ValueRAM 4GB DDR3 1333MHz Non-ECC CL9 DIMM (KVR1333D3N9/4G)"
Good test, I wonder how Kingston 4GB DDR3 PC10600 1333MHz (KTH9600B/4G) (HP), that Nicolav and I rate highly, relates with your RAM's.

Any forum reader that can speculate about the reason why some RAM's are better.
Do they have anything in common?
And the opposite, have the bad ones anything in common?

Would be great avoiding buying/testing hundreds of RAM's...
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Linnofil »

Music Lover wrote:Good test, I wonder how Kingston 4GB DDR3 PC10600 1333MHz (KTH9600B/4G) (HP), that Nicolav and I rate highly, relates with your RAM's.
I hope we can test this, when I have used them a few days to burn them in a bit. That would be interesting. I will retest against the Corsair in a few days to.
Music Lover wrote:Any forum reader that can speculate about the reason why some RAM's are better.
Do they have anything in common?
And the opposite, have the bad ones anything in common?

Would be great avoiding buying/testing hundreds of RAM's...
Yes, that would be very good to know! I wonder if it's the memory chips or the pcb design? Is there a controller in RAM sticks? It doesn't look like it. How many manufacturers of memory chips can there be? Does metal covers (design/cooling) act as screening? Maybe they can be grounded?
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Nicolav »

Linnofil wrote:Results of my tests (All done with a single 4GB RAM stick in the black (best) outer RAM socket.):
1: Best was the well (1 year) burned in "Corsair CL9 1600Mhz VENGEANCE LP (CML8GX3M2A1600C9B)"
2: Second best was the brand new "Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB DDR3 PC-12800 1600MHz CL9 XMP (KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX)".
3: Number three was the also very well burned in A-Data (as in the LS NAS spec, used in my LS NAS).
4: Worst, by some margin, was the "Kingston ValueRAM 4GB DDR3 1333MHz Non-ECC CL9 DIMM (KVR1333D3N9/4G)".

The Corsair had a much better sound than the Kingston Hyper X. Both where very different in their presentation. The Hyper X was very "Rock 'n' Roll" with some distorsion and a lot of "live feeling". The Corsair was smooth, nice and slightly more musical. Since there is a burn in effect for the RAM's I decided to stick with 8 GB (2x4GB) of the KIngston Hyper X. I think the Hyper-X might very well pass the Corsairs after burn in, they are pretty close (musically) as it is now.

As I mentioned earlier I tested mATX with A-Data vs. Mini-ITX with the Corsair RAM. The Corsair I tested now where (one of) the exact same RAM sticks. But I think that the difference between the mATX with Win7Pro and the Mini-ITX with Win7HP was bigger than the difference between the RAM. So I still think the Mini-ITX with Win7HP is the right choice. Since the difference is smaller now and most of it likely due to the different OS I think it's safe to go with the mATX board. I'm VERY happy with it.
Great test Linnofil!
Now it would be interesting to compare between my best ram and your best ram. Maybe Music Lover could be lend you the Kingston KTH9600B/4G.
Yesterday I've tested another bank of ram: Kingston KTH9600B/2G.
Fitted with same Elpida chip as the KTH9600B/4G but standard profile instead low profile. Well they are a bit better of KTH9600B/4G, better sound and a little more flow, but I suspect they are well burned because they come from an old PC in my office.
So I agree with you that burn in has a great role even with the rams and then the result should be evaluated taking them into consideration.
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Re: RAM tests

Post by hcl »

Linnofil wrote:
Music Lover wrote:Any forum reader that can speculate about the reason why some RAM's are better.
Do they have anything in common?
And the opposite, have the bad ones anything in common?

Would be great avoiding buying/testing hundreds of RAM's...
Yes, that would be very good to know! I wonder if it's the memory chips or the pcb design? Is there a controller in RAM sticks? It doesn't look like it. How many manufacturers of memory chips can there be? Does metal covers (design/cooling) act as screening? Maybe they can be grounded?
I have been following most of what has been written about the LSNAS, SSD, switches, cables,... and although I have only taken minor steps towards optimizing my own digital infrastructure I have noted a couple of things. To me it seems that the closer to the DS the more impact the units have, e.g. the type of switch and how it is connected, powered, connected to ground, positioned ... have more impact on the music than the NAS or what disk is used in the NAS. I do not know if this is generally true, just my reflection. It seems though that it is not the standard source-first relationship. Ripping however seems rather important which would contradict what I am suggesting, but it could well be that the important thing here is that the right information is read and the right compression applied.

In a sense the digital data is just that (data) until it is converted to an analogue waveform, but (and that is a BIG BUT :-) the analogue waveform representing the digital data is very much important at that stage and will, to some extent, determine the resulting quality of the waveform genereated by the DAC. Of course the isolation properties of the DAC will also have profound impact. The isolation is however limited (I do not know how much though - only that it is very difficult to reach more than about 60+ dB in a single box - very much frequency dependent). I think though, that most people will agree that no DAC circuit offer total isolation (or imunity if You will) between the analogue representation of the digital data and the analogue output of the DAC. At least the non ideal signal properties of the digital data signal will affect the earth currents around the DAC circuit hence also affecting the analogue side of the circuit.

The fundamental property of a digital system is that as long as the data can be interpreted as either 0 or 1 the data message can be fully recreated (with 100 % accuracy). This applies as long as the data is interpreted as data. When there are a conversion process involved, where the data has to be interpreted before conversion and in real time, the time dependent representation of that data beomes relevant. As it affects the interpretation and thus also the conversion process. The interpretation and isolation properties of each beffering stage between the creation of the data and the final conversion will, to some degree, affect the final result. It is however possible to both improve (mend) and degrade (or destroy) the data. For example it would be possible (if very time consuming) to print out the data and read it back to be stored before feeding it to the DS. This process (as long as the data is correctly interpreted) would be ideal and provide perfect reproduction as long as the storage of the re-written data is ideal. No reference would be made to the earlier representation of the data. As long as there are no real time requirements in any part of the chain the system is close to totally immune to the analogue representation of the data as long as there are no unrecoverable bit errors introduced in the chain. What you and others have dicovered is that when there are real time requirements on the data and on the quality of the analogue representation of the digital signal, it also becomes important to minimize the imperfections in the digital circuits. The quality of the analogue representation of the digital data can however not exceed the circuit topology and implementation of the final circuit closest connected to the DS. It could however be cleaned/restored along the way improving on the original analogue representation of the data (as in the previous example).

I do not think we (or others) have tried (compared) to connect several high quality switches in series in order to try to restore the analogue represenation of the data. We should try that! Anoher thing to try is to do a series of read and write the data from/to a high quality storage device. That could also be beneficial. I have heard of testimonials indicating that this kind of procedures could make for some improvements.

Considerig the quality of the RAM, as the data, after having been read from the disk, is stored in RAM, the analogue representation of the data is analogue waveform read from the storage device, but it will also be determined by the circuit topology, power supply, grounding conditions. Depending on the isolation properties of the RAM toloplogy and implementation in the system the analogue representation of the data as being transmitted from the storage device (e.g. from the HD, SSD over the PC data bus) will affect the data representation in the RAM circuit hence also the analogue waveform after having read the data and transmited it to the ethernet circuit/line-driver. I find it very plausible that the quality of the RAM have at least as much, possibly more, imact on the quality of the data delivered from the music server.

Yadda, yadda...

It seems I had too much time to spend on writing BS rather than on value adding tests... Sorry! Keep up the good work and the positive attitude!
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Puzzled

Post by David Neel »

Last weekend I commented on the improvements which several details had made to my LSNAS - and at the beginning the LSNAS had outperformed my laptop. I then reconnected the fan, and the power cord via the internal extension, and left it to run on mute for five days.

Expecting another improvement, something was not right when I listened again - the detail was there, but the music wasn't right. Retesting against the laptop - very close indeed, much closer than I remember from the first test before I started optimising the LSNAS.

Have I been imagining the improvements I've commented on, or is the burn-in taking a strange turn? The system is now on mute to burn-in more until next weekend when I get back home.
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Post by SaltyDog »

My theory is that the magnetic fields and the eddy currents are affected anytime anything with electric flow is re-positioned in relation to any ferromagnetic objects. This makes it quite difficult to change only one thing at a time. Any real improvement worth spending on would show up regardless of this. I also think this is the least understood part part of the equation.

Is it possible keep everything in the same relative positions to test? Did you by chance move any wires or anything else nearby? The situation you describe could have had no movements, so I ask out of curiosity and just to add this information to the effort.

This is no attempt to negate the effort and work you guys are putting into all of this. I'd be there with you if I had the time.

I have found through my life, that I can have time or money to do things, but seldom both at the same time.
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Nicolav »

Music Lover wrote:Good test, I wonder how Kingston 4GB DDR3 PC10600 1333MHz (KTH9600B/4G) (HP), that Nicolav and I rate highly, relates with your RAM's.

Any forum reader that can speculate about the reason why some RAM's are better.
Do they have anything in common?
And the opposite, have the bad ones anything in common?

Would be great avoiding buying/testing hundreds of RAM's...
Music Lover, I have two questions:
The chips on your kingston are from Elpida? The modules are low profile?
Looks like this?
Image
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Music Lover »

Nicolav wrote: The chips on your kingston are from Elpida? The modules are low profile?
Low profile yes.
I actually took a picture on my RAM before opening the box and based on that it's same RAM. Identical packaging, same text etc.
But I have to check the chip name next time I open the NAS as my pic resolution is not high enough.
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Post by Nicolav »

Ok, crucial moment, time to try the Intel 320 ssd!
First impression is has not been particularly positive, at least not what I expected compared to the ES .2
There is more detail and a general laid back presentation but overall I feel more comfortable with the ES.2. Intel 320 seems lack something, as the brain have to work more to follow the music. And now, kill me as well! :)
Perhaps there is room for some burn in even with the ssd?
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Post by cortina »

Regarding installation of the NAS, I am not very experienced with LANs and would appreciate some advice:

As I have my only Internet access/router rather far away from the stereo (in another room), cable connection between the router and the NAS would be quit ugly. So I would like to avoid it if at all possible.

Is it possible to use the wireless (bridge?) functionality of the ASUS E45M1-I Deluxe motherboard and still connect to the DS through ethernet cable (via a switch if advantageous?) without negative impact?

Or shall I use a repeater (like e.g. Netgear WN2000RPT) or would a repeater make browsing the NAS content any slower?

In short: What would be the best way to connect the NAS to a distant router to be able to control it?
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Post by Nicolav »

Nicolav wrote:Ok, crucial moment, time to try the Intel 320 ssd!
First impression is has not been particularly positive, at least not what I expected compared to the ES .2
There is more detail and a general laid back presentation but overall I feel more comfortable with the ES.2. Intel 320 seems lack something, as the brain have to work more to follow the music. And now, kill me as well! :)
Perhaps there is room for some burn in even with the ssd?
Unfortunately I have to confirm that my Intel 320 160GB is not good as my ES.2 and frankly I do not understand why. Because I trust the opinion of Linnofil and Music Lover about the superiority of the Intel 320 compared to Seagate enterprise hdd, makes me think that my model is not in perfect condition. I bought it used and despite the utility Intel ssd toolbox shows a perfect state of health, it may be that the damage is felt only listening ...
So I ask you, perhaps performing a secure erase may improve the performance? Or there is room for improvement during run in? The ssd has about 30 hours of use.
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Post by Nicolav »

Nicolav wrote:Unfortunately I have to confirm that my Intel 320 160GB is not good as my ES.2 and frankly I do not understand why. Because I trust the opinion of Linnofil and Music Lover about the superiority of the Intel 320 compared to Seagate enterprise hdd, makes me think that my model is not in perfect condition. I bought it used and despite the utility Intel ssd toolbox shows a perfect state of health, it may be that the damage is felt only listening ...
So I ask you, perhaps performing a secure erase may improve the performance? Or there is room for improvement during run in? The ssd has about 30 hours of use.
The only thing that could possibly ruin the performance of SSD is its mounting inside the case. Currently it is only placed on a metal part of the case without the use of screws. MAYBE this could compromise, I do not know how much, the musicality of the ssd. The only thing is to try, but to do that I need a metal adapter 2.5 "to 3.5" as the one made by ocz or similar.
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Post by k_numigl »

@ Nicolav:
Can you describe in more detail what is lacking? Is there only lacking something or is there a benefit with respect to certain aspects, too?

I don't think the SSD can easily be ruined.

My own E45 deluxe mobo is unfortunately defective (returned today). I'm not sure whether to hunt for the last ones of this old style, or to better wait a couple of days for the new successor E2KM1-I Deluxe (with a slightly faster CPU but a very similar overall PCB design). The new board was announced to be available mid Feb, but ,as always, it is now scheduled to arrive later at 5. March at most dealers.
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Post by lejonklou »

k_numigl wrote: I don't think the SSD can easily be ruined.
Any particular reason why not?

I am thinking of electrostatic discharge when handling it. Once unplugged, it could very well be sensitive. And the result could affect musical performance without the unit malfunctioning (yet).
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Post by Nicolav »

lejonklou wrote:
k_numigl wrote: I don't think the SSD can easily be ruined.
Any particular reason why not?

I am thinking of electrostatic discharge when handling it. Once unplugged, it could very well be sensitive. And the result could affect musical performance without the unit malfunctioning (yet).
Yes Fredrik, is the kind of thing I fear most... :(
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Linnofil »

k_numigl wrote:Did you use the Kingston spec of 1.65 V, or did you use 1.5 V?
I let the MB adjust the settings by it self, the A-Data and the Corsairs run at 1.5 V, but the Kingston Hyper-X runs at 1.65 V.

I did a retest of the RAM's today and the Corsairs are still a little bit better than the Kingston. The sound of the Kingston Hyper-X is now about the same as the Corsair, the rough distorted sound is gone. Retesting the A-Data didn't result in any disaster. They are still OK, just not as good. So I suspect that the Kingston that Nicolav and ML have is better. Because the Hyper-X or the Corsairs are no real revolution for me. It still would be very well worth the money spent on the Corsairs, but I don't think any of my RAM's is the best.

It will be very interesting if I can test my Hyper-X vs. ML's Kingston.

I put the Hyper-X back in the LS NAS and hope they improve with some more burn in.
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