The Linnofil Super NAS!

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Linnofil
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Re: Burn-in

Post by Linnofil »

Linnofil wrote:for David Neel it's probably just some light tweaking and burn in.
David Neel wrote:After leaving the LSNAS switched on, but not playing, for four days, I've come back to a HUGE improvement. :)
Told you so! :-) It's going to get even better. I hope you get more surprises like this one!
David Neel wrote:Also a package from Linnofil with 2x Deltaco SATA cables - yet to be installed.
Great to now they have arrived safely. Now we would like to hear if they are an improvement!
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Post by Linnofil »

Nicolav wrote:Last night I put the A-Data 2x4 GB 1600MHZ Game Series in place of my Kingston 2x KtH9600B/4G 1333 mhz.
To my surprise, my Kingston wins hands down!
This is great news. You should't be so surprised, RAM's have not been tested before. Good work! RAM is not that expensive, so I think everybody should be happy if we can find another RAM that sounds better than the one we have.
Nicolav wrote:Probably we have to consider running in of the A-data, despite the fresh Kingston played very well from the start.
Yes, I think that is advisable. But it still looks like you are on to something good!
Nicolav wrote:A-data with the LS NAS is less "super" than before, having lost much of his phenomenal musical breath.
I guess I also need to test some other RAM!
Nicolav wrote:So this leads me to think that there is still much to be experienced on the ram, given the great influence they have on the performance of LS NAS!
Correct!
Nicolav wrote:I think I'll try other sticks of ram to see if it is possible to further improve the performance of these Kingston, possibly even from the point of view of the sound that is their point lacking (a bit bright). However, in terms of tune and musical strength, for now, they are the top!
Please test what you have and can get hold of and report back here. We all benefit from each others testing. That is the whole idea behind this thread!
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Post by Linnofil »

k_numigl wrote:Another question about the SATA cables:
After having determined their optimum direction by playback, is it advised to change their direction for ripping/download?
I think they are directional, so they may benefit from reversing when recording. I think you are the only one who can test this, since no one else is recording with their LS NAS (or with the Deltaco cables). If they just make the LS NAS sound better because of other reasons (whatever they may be, screening, electromagnetic radiation etc) they will probably sound better the same way, even for recording.

Please test and report back here, it's interesting!
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Post by ThomasOK »

Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:So I decided to completely clean the OS disabling access to internet: I think it's worth it.
I have yet to uninstall all updates of Win 7.
It's to bad I need internet on my control devices (mostly iOS). I don't really dare to try without AV... My wife and kids would go nuts if I tried disabeling internet on the WLAN! (Or disabled DS control from the WLAN?)
Considering this conversation on the musical advantages of not connecting to the Internet I thought I should bring up something that has not been discussed here so far: Linn's Songbox server software. I expect it hasn't been used here yet as it is obviously (and I thought surprisingly) Apple centric currently using only iTunes compatible file formats and using iTunes as the music management software. Since it seems like the Swedish Linn fans are more often Windows users (as indicated by the lack of discussion of the viability of using a Mac Mini as a server or of the musical quality of FLAC vs. ALAC) I can understand Songbox being left out of the testing.

However, I wanted to let you know that Songbox is something you will likely want to look at in the near future. Songbox, like Songcast, is not a simple one trick pony and was not just designed to make it easy for most people to get a DS up and running, although that was the big impetus for the first release. Linn feels that they need to offer a robust, in-house server solution, much like they did in the control point arena with Kinsky. They know that there have been a lot of frustrations with Twonky and other media servers. They have realized the need to offer solutions for all parts of the streaming process in order to make this as simple, powerful and seamless as possible (they are getting more like Apple every day - don't tell them I said that!).

So their plan is to build a very powerful and flexible server on the Songbox foundation and I expect you will see significant enhancements to it this year - some of which also tie in with Internet access for the server. Very soon you should see additional formats added to Songbox so that it can support all the formats that the DS units support so FLAC support will be here sooner rather than later. But that is just the beginning. Linn intend over time to make Songbox a complete media management program so that iTunes or other similar programs are not needed (let's hope they take a page or two from Sooloos). But Linn also intend to add support for services such as Spotify and Pandora through the Songbox server. They contend that most companies are implementing these capabilities on their players but that it makes more sense to put it in the server where all players can have access to it. This will mean that anyone wanting to use those services will need to have continuous Internet access. So this research into the least musically intrusive Virus protection software is a good idea.
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Re: Tweaking

Post by Linnofil »

David Neel wrote:Started out tonight to uninstall MSE and replace with AVG. Ended up with a complete software re-install and a two-hour delay, so difficult to say how much better it is with AVG in place of MSE, but overall a small improvement.
A bit inconclusive, but that's how it is some times. AVG should be better, so I think it's a step in the right direction.
David Neel wrote:Then I changed the power from domestic ring main to the hifi spur - an improvement, but not very big. So I eliminated the internal extension cable in the Node 304, plugging the power cord direct into the PSU (with the Node 304 top/side panels off). This gave a much bigger improvement, so much so that I am now thinking of unscrewing the power supply and mounting it on blu-tac or similar, so that I can recess it enough to accomodate the straight-in power cord.
It's very good to have this tested. I hope that you find a good and permanent way around the design flaw in the Node 304.

I just ordered a new Kemppi MIG/MAG welder, so I could have helpt you out, if you lived closer... To have somebody professional make and weld new brackets into the case for the PSU is probably almost as expensive as a new Coler Master Elite 120 case.
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Post by Nicolav »

Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Uninstalled all programs including feature windows: there was a further improvement.
What is "feature windows"? Where there any special SW that did a bigger difference than the others"? I ask because I have a feeling that Linn Konfig (with MS .net) didn't do my NAS any god. The NAS got worse the same night I installed Konfig, but this was during some other changes, so I'm not 100% sure of what it was. I have yet to uninstall it. Maybe this weekend I'll have the time to try it.
Windows fetaures is a set of programs included in windows: There are some screenshot Image and Image
Unfortunately, I found that the more the OS is clean, the better it sounds!
Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:So I decided to completely clean the OS disabling access to internet: I think it's worth it.
I have yet to uninstall all updates of Win 7.
It's to bad I need internet on my control devices (mostly iOS). I don't really dare to try without AV... My wife and kids would go nuts if I tried disabeling internet on the WLAN! (Or disabled DS control from the WLAN?)
Simply I decided to not use internet. Luckily my wife has her pc... :)
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Post by k_numigl »

Linnofil wrote: I think they are directional, so they may benefit from reversing when recording. I think you are the only one who can test this.
If it is the difference between writing and reading from the SSD via the Sata cable, it must affect all kinds of access to the SSD - ripping, download, etc.. (If I tought it was important for recording only, I would not have raised the issue here.)

Slowly the parts for my own LSNASPC come in. It' s close to a miracle that the ordered E45M1-I Deluxe arrived yesterday in reality. Great. I found that at ebay Italy there is a couple left on offer. The Seasonic PSU seems out of stock here, so I simply have to wait for it.

The RAm discussion prompted me to check out the G.Skill version mentioned in the OVL. I fear they arrive earlier then the PSU, and I wondered whether it is OK to use 4 GB? Does it make any difference to use 4 or 8 GB?

With respect to the case, the LianLi Q08 (already here) to me still seems a good choice for an mITX. Its height is smaller than the width of most cases with a horizontal board position, so it simply can be turned to its side if this is preferential musically. LianLi even sells the cases' feet separately if one feels a need for them.
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RAM update

Post by Nicolav »

Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Probably we have to consider running in of the A-data, despite the fresh Kingston played very well from the start.
Yes, I think that is advisable. But it still looks like you are on to something good!
Today A-Data seems a little better, perhaps the break in has started to have a positive effect, but the Kingston (from my memory) are still better. I'ave tried some voltage settings: default (auto) on bios gave 1.48V so I've entered manually 1,60V. So yes in this way A-data become more solid and controlled, but still less engaging and clean that Kingston.
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Post by David Neel »

Now fitted a Deltaco SATA cable to the music drive. I think there is an improvement, but it's marginal. Tried swapping back and forth, but no conclusive result so I will leave the Deltaco in place to burn in. I've also disconnected the fans, again a small improvement. But the LSNAS has now reached the point where I can hear what all the fuss is about. A very worthwhile upgrade indeed!

I have tried to move the PSU back across the chassis to accommodate the straight-in power cord, but there is insufficient room, so I will need either a right-angle power cord, or a new case. As Linnofil says, the new recommended case is almost as cheap as a Linn power cord, but to my eyes it doesn't look as good as the Node 304.

It does have an external drive slot, though, so I could add my Samsung SH224, load EAC, and have an onboard ripper. Would this affect the LSNAS performance when the drive was unused and the software not running? I would have thought not, but if switching off the fans can make a small difference....
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Post by ThomasOK »

I'm not saying this is the ideal solution as it adds another connection, but...AudioQuest makes 90° IEC adaptors that might allow you to connect the cable. They run $16.95 in the States and are likely just solid metal connectors in molded plastic. They make them going both up and down directions and you just plug one into the socket and plug the cable into them. I imagine there may be generic versions available in electronic parts or hardware stores. You would easily be able to test the musical effect of the adaptor by trying directly and with the adaptor. I expect there would be some loss but you never know?

Here is a link with photos of what I'm talking about:

http://www.audioquest.com/iec-power-adaptors/iec-902
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Post by Nicolav »

Swapped again Kingston in place of A-data.
Kngston are the clear WINNER!
I can now say with certainty that this ram reaches the LSNAS musical performances unthinkable for a business NAS and allows you to get the best of the best from our DS. LSNAS become even more Super! This is the kind of difference there may be between a ram and another, so it is an aspect that deserves to be investigated carefully.
For the record, the model I am using is Kingston KTH9600B/4G with chips marked ELPIDA, low profile format.
It 's still available on the market price of around 20 euro for bank http://www.ebay.it/itm/KINGSTON-TECHNOL ... 1c2f885794

PS Tried also with only 4 GB of ram (one bank) and performance are not affected, this is fine because test other ram becomes less expensive.
It remains to investigate which of the two slots is better.
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Post by k_numigl »

Nicolav wrote: It remains to investigate which of the two slots is better.
Asus recommends to use the blue socket if only 1 socket is used. But this is based on computer design criteria, of course.
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Post by David Neel »

Thomas - thanks for finding the Audioquest adapter. It looks like the 90/1 version will work in the case. I will lose a drive slot, but that does not matter when I've got six. I'll try to find a complete cable first, this is my plan B.
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Post by Music Lover »

David Neel wrote:Thomas - thanks for finding the Audioquest adapter. It looks like the 90/1 version will work in the case. I will lose a drive slot, but that does not matter when I've got six. I'll try to find a complete cable first, this is my plan B.
Please contact Linn and ask if they have spare parts to Komri as you have two of these power cables inside each speaker. (if I remember correctly, that is)
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Post by Nicolav »

k_numigl wrote:
Nicolav wrote: It remains to investigate which of the two slots is better.
Asus recommends to use the blue socket if only 1 socket is used. But this is based on computer design criteria, of course.
I was not aware of this, thanks for the info!
In any case I will test both sockets.
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Post by Nicolav »

Some more test on RAM.
With one bank, white socket is a little better (maybe because mechanically built better?) than blue.
One Kingston bank is a bit better than other.
One interesting thing I found is that both socked used is better than only one used.
Non sure if difference is due to the more ram quantity (8GB instead 4GB) or to the use of both two sockets: to know that I should have one bank of 8GB!
Last edited by Nicolav on 2013-02-10 22:32, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Music Lover wrote:
David Neel wrote:Thomas - thanks for finding the Audioquest adapter. It looks like the 90/1 version will work in the case. I will lose a drive slot, but that does not matter when I've got six. I'll try to find a complete cable first, this is my plan B.
Please contact Linn and ask if they have spare parts to Komri as you have two of these power cables inside each speaker. (if I remember correctly, that is)
A couple more thoughts on the power cables. First, I checked on Music Lover's idea about the Komri cable and I don't think it is the solution you are looking for. First off it is not a regular power cable - it is a Mains inlet assembly that looks like it might be fused and would have a regular mains cable plug into it. It has a short cable attached to it that ends in a 90° IEC plug. So it is possible you MIGHT be able to replace the current receptacle and plug in the case with this assembly. However, since you don't know if this would improve performance, especially with the extra connections involved, and since the price was $176 and change in 2008 (the most recent spares list I have at home) I doubt this is the solution you are looking for.

The other thought is that you have to be very careful when trying to replace a Linn power cable with a similar one of the same brand. In the past I and others have tried to find "generic" cables of the same or similar construction to Linn cables and, more often than not, have been disappointed. As an example, for many years Linn used Volex as the supplier of their power cables. There are many electronics parts companies like Mouser in the US, or likely Farnell in the UK, who sell power cables from Volex. However, Volex makes several different molded on connectors for both the IEC and AC ends of the cable and they have a dizzying number of different wire constructions: shielded and non-shielded, different wire gauges, different temperature ratings on the insulation, different insulation types, etc. The only time I was ever able to find a cable that performed at the same level as a Linn Volex was when I was able to purchase a Baohing one with the same exact wire, going the same direction (which can be a bit random when buying from an electronics place) and the same exact ends with about a 6" (roughly 150mm) longer cable and it actually slightly outperformed the Linn one. However, whe I reordered the same cable for stock at the store I found out that Volex had changed both the connectors with a substantial loss in performance. You can check my posts on the Power cable thread for more details if you wish.

By the way, my initial comparisons indicate that the Longwell US AC cables that Linn was recently supplying are more musical than the newer I-Sheng cables that they are supplying now. So the Longwells are still the best power cable I have heard (although I plan more testing).
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Post by Linnofil »

Nicolav wrote:Windows fetaures is a set of programs included in windows:
There are some screenshot Image and Image

Unfortunately, I found that the more the OS is clean, the better it sounds!
Thanks for clearing that out. I wonder if there is any SW that actually makes the LS NAS better? There may be an optimum "load" on the LS NAS that makes it perfect. But it looks like the less load, the better it is.
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Post by Linnofil »

k_numigl wrote:If it is the difference between writing and reading from the SSD via the Sata cable, it must affect all kinds of access to the SSD - ripping, download, etc.
Yes, you are probably right, but I don't know if it's practical to reverse the SATA cables each time you have to rip something. It may be more practical to have a dedicated 320 SSD for ripping, with the cable permanently reversed. I may test this when I get to rip testing later. (Have a external Plextor 310 on a loan.)
k_numigl wrote:ISlowly the parts for my own LSNASPC come in. It' s close to a miracle that the ordered E45M1-I Deluxe arrived yesterday in reality. Great. I found that at ebay Italy there is a couple left on offer. The Seasonic PSU seems out of stock here, so I simply have to wait for it.
It's great that you got your MB. Even if the mATX turns out to be just as good, I like the small format better. It's more practical with a smaller NAS.
k_numigl wrote:IThe RAm discussion prompted me to check out the G.Skill version mentioned in the OVL. I fear they arrive earlier then the PSU, and I wondered whether it is OK to use 4 GB? Does it make any difference to use 4 or 8 GB?
Nicolav have answered that question with his tests. It great that you have got som RAM to test. I got three different RAM yesterday (2x Kingston, 1x Corsair, will get back on the specifics). I will test them as soon as I can.
k_numigl wrote:IWith respect to the case, the LianLi Q08 (already here) to me still seems a good choice for an mITX. Its height is smaller than the width of most cases with a horizontal board position, so it simply can be turned to its side if this is preferential musically. LianLi even sells the cases' feet separately if one feels a need for them.
My tests indicated a clear preference (big difference) for horizontal placement of the MB. So it would be great if you could test this when you get your LS NAS in order.
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Post by Linnofil »

David Neel wrote:Now fitted a Deltaco SATA cable to the music drive. I think there is an improvement, but it's marginal. Tried swapping back and forth, but no conclusive result so I will leave the Deltaco in place to burn in.
The Deltaco cables are no miracle cables, but they are the best that I have tested. Considering the cost of SATA cables (even with International shipping) I think they very worthwile to get. Please let them burn in for a while. (Let the DS play muted 24/7.) I think you will hear a bigger difference between cables when your LS NAS is further optimized.
David Neel wrote:I've also disconnected the fans, again a small improvement.
My tests indicate that a "good" fan is better to have connected than disconnected. I wonder if you had it connected to the CPU fan pin header? That is the the correct one, even if you have a case/chassies fan. Can you try this? If it's better without fan, this indicates that the Node 304 fan is not good (for music).
David Neel wrote:But the LSNAS has now reached the point where I can hear what all the fuss is about. A very worthwhile upgrade indeed!
Great! I'm very happy for you. It's not going to stop either, it will just get better and better!
David Neel wrote:It does have an external drive slot, though, so I could add my Samsung SH224, load EAC, and have an onboard ripper. Would this affect the LSNAS performance when the drive was unused and the software not running? I would have thought not, but if switching off the fans can make a small difference....
One indication is that a Swedish user has his external Plextor 950 BR drive connected all the time. That is OK, when connecting with eSATA, but it's not OK having it connected with USB3... So SATA connections may be well isolated and therefore OK to use for a rip drive.
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RAM tests

Post by Linnofil »

I have now bought some RAM for testing. My local store didn't have the same RAM as Nicolav uses, but I decided to try some other Kingston RAM, Kingston ValueRAM 4GB DDR3 1333MHz Non-ECC CL9 DIMM (KVR1333D3N9/4G) they only had one in stock, so I bought a single 4 GB. 
I also bought 8GB (2x4GB) of, Kingston HyperX Blu 8GB DDR3 PC-12800 1600MHz CL9 XMP (KHX1600C9D3B1K2/8GX)

When I tested mATX vs. Mini-ITX I now remember that I also had different RAM. At that time I didn't know about RAM differences, so I forgot they where not the same. So I decided to get that RAM to. So I now have got a single 4GB of Corsair CL9 1600Mhz VENGEANCE LP (CML8GX3M2A1600C9B)

I have not had the time to test this yet, but I thought I would let you know that I'm about to test these RAM's. So if someone else are doing RAM testing on their LS NAS, they don't have to buy the same. At least not yet. :-)

As soon as I have tested, I will let you know. 
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Post by Music Lover »

ThomasOK wrote: the price was $176 and change in 2008 (the most recent spares list I have at home) I doubt this is the solution you are looking for.
Nah...that's nothing ;-)
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: RAM tests

Post by Music Lover »

Linnofil wrote:I have now bought some RAM for testing. My local store didn't have the same RAM as Nicolav uses
I have located, what I think (se below), same RAM as Nicolav.
I just bought it and when delivered I can get the RAM to you so you can test it together with the best of your RAMs.
We can then do the opposite using my NAS. (as we have different motherboards it may be a difference)

Kingston 4GB DDR3 PC10600 1333MHz (KTH9600B/4G) (HP)
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Post by Music Lover »

Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Windows fetaures is a set of programs included in windows:
There are some screenshot Image and Image

Unfortunately, I found that the more the OS is clean, the better it sounds!
Thanks for clearing that out. I wonder if there is any SW that actually makes the LS NAS better? There may be an optimum "load" on the LS NAS that makes it perfect. But it looks like the less load, the better it is.
This I have to test, thanks for the info!

Nicolav, did you test both these different scenarios?
1/ disable the programs (= still installed but not running)
2/ remove the programs?

If you rate the performance differences in your LS-NAS, different RAM, different SATA cables/direction, programs running/not running - it would be interesting.

For me:
tuned NV+ with HDD--> tuned NV+ with Intel SSD (big) --> LS NAS using inbuilt PSU (huge) --> LS NAS with Platinum PSU (huge)
Power cords, placement on rack and SATAcables (minor but still clearly noticeable)
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Post by Nicolav »

Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:Windows fetaures is a set of programs included in windows:
There are some screenshot Image and Image

Unfortunately, I found that the more the OS is clean, the better it sounds!
Thanks for clearing that out. I wonder if there is any SW that actually makes the LS NAS better? There may be an optimum "load" on the LS NAS that makes it perfect. But it looks like the less load, the better it is.
That's right, my experience has been that every program uninstall it would result in a benefit in terms of musicality.
Ie, uninstall acrobat reader: better. Uninstall Kinky desktop: better. Uninstall all windows features: even better. And so on.
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